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The Valeyard - Please Clarify


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Old 15-05-2011, 21:29
David_Agnew
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In the Trial of a Timelord series with Colin Baker, the Master says that the Valeyard is created between the Doctor's 12th and 13th regenerations.

David Tennant regenerated twice - this has been killing me. Does this mean that when the Doctor is killed in TIA that the Valeyard is created? Is the little girl the Valeyard? With the kill shot, does the little girl in the space suit take the regeneration energy?

Or am I being a moron?
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Old 15-05-2011, 21:32
DoctorQui
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In the Trial of a Timelord series with Colin Baker, the Master says that the Valeyard is created between the Doctor's 12th and 13th regenerations.

David Tennant regenerated twice - this has been killing me. Does this mean that when the Doctor is killed in TIA that the Valeyard is created? Is the little girl the Valeyard? With the kill shot, does the little girl in the space suit take the regeneration energy?

Or am I being a moron?
Not a moron, just the victim of a little bit of DW lore that someone created without thinking that we would ever get to 12-13

The Valeyard isn't an actual incarnation, but a amalgam of his darker side toward the end of his regenerations.

The most perplexing issue however, is that the Doctor has now indicated that he has inexcess of 500 regenerations

Of course, it could be me being the moron
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Old 15-05-2011, 21:35
EELover
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The most perplexing issue however, is that the Doctor has now indicated that he has inexcess of 500 regenerations
I missed this, when did this occur?
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Old 15-05-2011, 21:36
DoctorQui
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I missed this, when did this occur?
In SJA episode, Death of the Doctor, I think
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Old 15-05-2011, 21:37
JCRendle
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The Valeyard isn't an actual incarnation, but a amalgam of his darker side toward the end of his regenerations.
DreamLord?
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Old 15-05-2011, 21:38
DoctorQui
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Of sorts but not exactly

I understood the Dreamlord to be an image or projection, where as the Valeyard is a physical manifestation. Again, my understanding, there are far more proficient fans who could no doubt give a better example
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Old 15-05-2011, 21:45
EELover
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In SJA episode, Death of the Doctor, I think
Ah thanks, that explains it, never watched SJA
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Old 15-05-2011, 21:47
DoctorQui
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Ah thanks, that explains it, never watched SJA
I've only seen the odd few, that being one
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Old 15-05-2011, 21:48
Gene the Cow
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Even RTD (who wrote that episode) said he didn't expect the bazillion regenerations to stick
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Old 15-05-2011, 21:52
Deserana 12
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I'd love the little girl to be the valeyard and I'd love her to regenerate into Matt Smith because I think he does dark extremely well.
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Old 15-05-2011, 22:09
Horny Nimon
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Highly unlikely that the Valeyard, the Rani, or a great amount of past characters will return in the new run. The producers will let the occasional drip of nostalgia though but mostly will stick to their own 'new' mythology, thats why they reinvented the cybermen history and killed off the timelords. I doubt that the return of Omega will happen either despite constant forum mentions.
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Old 15-05-2011, 22:39
mattias
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The Valeyard was originally intended to be a much darker and more 'adult' character. The original character was created by Eric Saward, the script editor at the time. In his version of things, the Doctor would definitely, between his penultimate and final incarnations, become the Valeyard, desperate to extend his life (for a similar example, check out the Master in The Keeper of Traken).

John Nathan-Turner, who was the producer at the time, didn't like how dark this was, balking at the idea of having a story in which the hero is set on an inevitable path to becoming evil (although these days that seems to happen all the time!) They had a big falling-out over it and Eric Saward refused to allow any of his original script to be used.

By this point though they'd already established that the Valeyard would be used across the whole arc. Pip and Jane Baker (the people responsible for creating the Rani!) were called in to write a replacement script which patched up the continuity explosion created by Saward pulling out.

That's how we have the Valeyard as we understand him now - a sort of physical manifestation of the darkest side of the Doctor, a potential outcome from a desperate Doctor at the end of his life.

Personally I think that the Valeyard is done and dusted - the Doctor's own encounter with him could potentially undo the whole thing as presumably the Doctor would be less likely to turn into him if he was prepared. With all the timey-wimey rewriting that goes on these days as well nothing's ever certain!

Adding to the never-ending regeneration debate, at the time the 13th incarnation was considered the end of a Time Lord's life, so the 12-13 regeneration was used as the basis of his creation. Now that regenerations are more up in the air, who knows?
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Old 15-05-2011, 22:41
Helbore
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The most perplexing issue however, is that the Doctor has now indicated that he has inexcess of 500 regenerations
Didn't he say he had 507 regenerations? I assumed he was just taking the proverbial.
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Old 15-05-2011, 22:57
DavetheScot
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I see the Valeyard as having been a possible future incarnation that the Doctor might have become, but now won't.
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Old 15-05-2011, 23:27
DoctorQui
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I see the Valeyard as having been a possible future incarnation that the Doctor might have become, but now won't.
That'll do, perfect explanation, nuff said!
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Old 15-05-2011, 23:45
Cel1084
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Yes. NO, NO! but if it helps yes.
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Old 16-05-2011, 04:11
Simon Foston
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Highly unlikely that the Valeyard, the Rani, or a great amount of past characters will return in the new run. The producers will let the occasional drip of nostalgia though but mostly will stick to their own 'new' mythology, thats why they reinvented the cybermen history and killed off the timelords. I doubt that the return of Omega will happen either despite constant forum mentions.
I agree with every word. It always seems to me that because there is virtually no real continuity in any old series stories, they're better off drawing a line under it all and starting almost from scratch with a bit more consistency. As for the Valeyard, the Rani and Omega, those names are only really meaningful for hard-core fans, I think. I mean, I know a lot of people who watch and like Doctor Who, but they would have no idea who those characters are so bringing them back would be all but pointless and totally lacking in dramatic impact. I was never crazy about the Rani or Omega anyway, to be quite honest.
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Old 16-05-2011, 07:46
stafs
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Both the Rani and Omega can quite easily explained in a few lines of dialogue, so I don't think it's a real problem to bring those back, you don't really need to know what's gone before. The Valeyard is a different matter,

I've watched every episode from Tom Baker when originally aired and seen every episode ever broadcast when repeated and even I have difficulty understanding the Valeyard, so I think he is only truly really meaningful to the true hardcore fan. As such, I would be very surprised if we ever saw him again.
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Old 16-05-2011, 08:04
Talma
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The most perplexing issue however, is that the Doctor has now indicated that he has inexcess of 500 regenerations
Oh come on, the Doctor was batting questions from Clyde whilst crawling rapidly through an ventilation shaft and I took that as a throwaway remark along the 'if you keep asking questions you'll get silly answers'' line. Not only does the Doctor lie but he doesn't like talking about himself and will mislead people, including inquisitive young humans.
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Old 16-05-2011, 08:10
kitthekat
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Oh come on, the Doctor was batting questions from Clyde whilst crawling rapidly through an ventilation shaft and I took that as a throwaway remark along the 'if you keep asking questions you'll get silly answers'' line. Not only does the Doctor lie but he doesn't like talking about himself and will mislead people, including inquisitive young humans.
That's what I took the line to mean too, but I don't think the production team will limit themselves to just two more regenerations of the Doctor after Matt Smith decides to leave, as long as the series is still popular- and now it's breaking America, I think that's a safe bet. They'll come up with some timey-wimey (or is that spacey-wacey now?) explanation to get around a Time Lord just having 13 regenerations, I'm sure.
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Old 16-05-2011, 08:27
The 3 Doctors
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The Valeyard was originally intended to be a much darker and more 'adult' character. The original character was created by Eric Saward, the script editor at the time. In his version of things, the Doctor would definitely, between his penultimate and final incarnations, become the Valeyard, desperate to extend his life (for a similar example, check out the Master in The Keeper of Traken).

John Nathan-Turner, who was the producer at the time, didn't like how dark this was, balking at the idea of having a story in which the hero is set on an inevitable path to becoming evil (although these days that seems to happen all the time!) They had a big falling-out over it and Eric Saward refused to allow any of his original script to be used.

By this point though they'd already established that the Valeyard would be used across the whole arc. Pip and Jane Baker (the people responsible for creating the Rani!) were called in to write a replacement script which patched up the continuity explosion created by Saward pulling out.

That's how we have the Valeyard as we understand him now - a sort of physical manifestation of the darkest side of the Doctor, a potential outcome from a desperate Doctor at the end of his life.

Personally I think that the Valeyard is done and dusted - the Doctor's own encounter with him could potentially undo the whole thing as presumably the Doctor would be less likely to turn into him if he was prepared. With all the timey-wimey rewriting that goes on these days as well nothing's ever certain!

Adding to the never-ending regeneration debate, at the time the 13th incarnation was considered the end of a Time Lord's life, so the 12-13 regeneration was used as the basis of his creation. Now that regenerations are more up in the air, who knows?
In some ways the Dreamlord was a bit like the Valeyard as he too was a manifestation of the darkest side of the Doctor only he didn't have a physical presence like the valeyard.

I have always thought the Valeyard would be an interesting character for the Show to revisit. The Doctors greatest ever and biggest threat being himself.
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Old 16-05-2011, 08:27
DoctorQui
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Oh come on, the Doctor was batting questions from Clyde whilst crawling rapidly through an ventilation shaft and I took that as a throwaway remark along the 'if you keep asking questions you'll get silly answers'' line. Not only does the Doctor lie but he doesn't like talking about himself and will mislead people, including inquisitive young humans.
That's what I took the line to mean too, but I don't think the production team will limit themselves to just two more regenerations of the Doctor after Matt Smith decides to leave, as long as the series is still popular- and now it's breaking America, I think that's a safe bet. They'll come up with some timey-wimey (or is that spacey-wacey now?) explanation to get around a Time Lord just having 13 regenerations, I'm sure.
Possibly, but its hardly a difficult question to answer is it, even under pressure so why lie on something so mundane and ordinary for a timelord?

Believe me, I hate the idea of so many regenerations, but I think it was meant as exactly that
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Old 16-05-2011, 08:31
Orri
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In the Trial of a Timelord series with Colin Baker, the Master says that the Valeyard is created between the Doctor's 12th and 13th regenerations.

"12th and Last" ,
and yes it's sad that I remember the exact line.
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Old 16-05-2011, 08:55
Mulett
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Not often you see the words 'Valeyard' and 'clarity' in the same sentence
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Old 16-05-2011, 12:26
Zarius
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I was never crazy about the Rani or Omega anyway, to be quite honest.
Me too. Rani and Omega didnt really have good stories either, so I have to wonder why anyone would want them back...perhaps it's their concepts that make them appealing, I don't know
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