Reading some of the comments on here I begin to wonder what is going on. I watched "The Rebel Flesh" closely on Saturday night. I thought the whole point of the gangers is that they aren't clones. They are "the flesh". Copies of the people, impregnated with the memories of the workers. They aren't plastic as the flesh is organic. There is no hint of a sontaran influence - those were clones and they stank! We should accept the story for what it is and actually watch what is happening! Its not a clone story - the gangers and the people are in fact the same. Surely that is the point and that is why they are arguing.

I've seen people comment on solar flares too - which should be melting the whole of the planet or some such thing. We weren't told that - we were told it was a solar tsunami. If you didn't like this episode - fair enough - but at least pay attention!

It's not often i get wound up but i personally had very strong reservations about this story - being from Matthew Graham - the man that has written the worst episode of the new run. But in all honesty i was pleasantly surprised. It was scary and the themes were adult and very difficult. I really am intrigued as to where it will go.

That's my rant over!

So do you think the solar flares should have roasted the Autons and their primordial Sontaran clones. I found that bit confusing

I think the reason people are discussing previous episodes is because the doctor insinuated strongly that he'd seen the technology before, maybe a different form or variation of it, but the same idea nonetheless.

We're merely speculating whether this could be in an episode we've already seen, or if the flesh is a completely new aspect which the doctor (may or may not) recognise for reasons otherwise.

It's not what they are that people are debating, it's what they could be, it's where the technology could end up, it's where the technology could have come from.

Maybe they could end up deciding they want to be more than just duplicate copies - they've already shown that they have abilities regular humans don't. Maybe The Doctor feels guilty because humans got the technology from reverse-engineering a regenerating cell. Maybe humanity stole the technology from the Sontarans, and the Doctor wants to stop them from going down the same path of war.

No harm in that kind of speculation. It'll be cleared up by the next story anyway.

What's your definition of a clone? How does a clone differ from "copies of the people, impregnated with [their] memories"? That seems to be exactly what a clone is both in Doctor Who land and in the dictionary.

Actually a point was brought up that lends some credence to the Sontaran theory.
In TPS/TSS ep a clone of Martha was created out of green goo, along with Martha's feelings and memories, but Martha had to stay wired in and unconscious while it did its thing

RTD's version of Doctor Who was constantly going over the same territory - any "mystery" would turn out to the Daleks or one of a tiny number of baddies. People are still expecting the same thing - it looks like a clone so it must be something to do with Sontarans - instead of opening their minds to the possibility that the Doctot might meet some new threat or some new enemy might be created that has no connection to anything that's been before. It doesn't help that there are a lot of fans who have only seen DW since 2005 when that insular version started and too many of the older fan just want to see their old favourites - bad guy in his own - must be the Master.

Just to clear up the clone issue - clones are not fully-formed copies. They are cells taken from living creatures which are then used in place of the usual egg & sperm to create an otherwise normal gestation cycle with the rider that only one doner is reuired - and the single DNA source means that they are - in perfect cloning - an exact physical copy of the doner. Beyond that, they are created through the normal process of cell division and not cobbled together from some sort of stem-cell goop. Sontarans - who come from a planet with far higher gravity than Earth and have been cloning for vast periods of time - use a process to accelerate the gestation and "mature" the clones artifically fast. Sontaran cloning is imprefect - there are variations possibly due to low-level mutations in th ecloning process - hence the different heights and different faces.

Bottom line - not every story has to have or connect to the same half dozen bad-guys. The Doctor doesn't live in a village and there are lots of new and exciting things for him - and us - to see every time he sets off.

But the statements made in TRF made it sound as though the doc knew of the monastery and the flesh before hand. Not to say it cannot be new, but that is not the direction we are currently being pointed in.

J
However this was not the case with the Martha clone. It was formed in a pile of goo in a matter of minutes/hours.
In TRF the doctor stated the flesh was an earlier version of whatever technology it is, hence the possibility of it being sontaran. Whilst it may be new one cannot dismiss the striking similarities.


I get it, not every female is the Rani, not every disembodied voice is Omega, and up until I was reminded of the Martha clone I rejected any possibility of the Sontarans, but when you think about it most certainly could make sense, due to the rewriting of the Sontarans in the new series. The old series had no females, no insta clones that required the original to be connected to some grid.

The "real" Martha wasn't strapped into a harness and she wasn't controlling the fake one. The fake one was a clone - the Sontarans are experts at cloning - and Staal had Martha's memories implanted into it. Apart from the fact that the end result is a copy, the process is nothing like the Flesh which were just puppets - extensions of the controller - until the freak storm.

A simple question....

The Sontaran Stratagem took place (in the story) in the present - Earth 2008. This episode takes place in the future - in the 22nd century. If the Sontarans had that technology over a hundred years before this episode takes place, why would they want this as a prototype - they obviously not only already got something like it - they've got something far superior to it and they had it at least a century before just based on what we've actually seen in screen in the last couple of years? (In terms of DW - they've had vastly superior technology for hundreds of years at least - their skills are light-years beyond ours)

It's like having an episode with a WWII armoured car and saying that the Daleks are behind it cos they want to build some armour.

The time difference represents a major sticking point to the theory, I'll give you that. I cannot come up with a good scenario (with or without time travel) to explain it.

Still, the idea that it is something new doesn't quite match up with the dialogue of the episode.

I dont understand the problem

So because the doctor seems to know what is going on then he must have encountered the enemy before. Until recently i had never seen a labradoodle, but i still knew it was a dog when i saw it

Hang on a mo!

This is a forum is for the use of all people; seasoned fans, new fans, people who are not fans but like the programme (I like watching Spongebob, but I am not a fan!), very young people, very old people, people who listen and debate every little aspect of an episode of DW issue, and those who watch the drama but don't pay attention to detail, those who have a serious understanding of science and those who do not. MOst importantly, those who have an excellent understanding of the Whoniverse and those who do not!

Basically, if you can't come on a forum and talk freely about what you understand something to be without someone saying "don't be so stupid, what a silly thing to say, you did'nt actually watch it did you etc etc, then frankly, we should just call the forum, "Elite" Zone!

Sorry for my rant, and I do say the above with all due respect, but I say post whatever theory you want, and if you don't understand something come on this forum where a friendly member will try to explain it for you.

Gr anted, if you get some troll harping on about the same thing over and over following many explanations from members, then they deserve to be blasted to oblivion, and I am talking mainly about you boring Moff v RTD peeps.

Anyway, rant over move along, nothing to see here and a warm welcome to all Newbies who are interested in talking about DW, you've come to the right place!

BUT, make sure you tag your spoilers!

Even with a perfect sample and a perfect process, you won't get a duplicate of an existing person. Clones are genetically identical, not physically identical. There's a lot more that goes into the creation of a person that their genetics.

Besides, that's only cloning as we use it. In a sci-fi setting, cloning could mean any number of ways of duplicating a body.

No, that's the only means we have today of cloning rather than the definition of a clone. Per the dictionary a clone is: "an individual organism containing a genetic complement identical to that of another organism, produced by using the genetic material from the second animal in a non-sexual reproduction process". At least when stable, they're clones.

Right! So we're all agreed then that the Flesh is totally new at least until next week when we find out more?

I'm with you anyway. They're new, with intriguing possibilities.

Which is why I've said that if there is any connection between the Flesh Technology and Sontarans then it's that Humans in the 22nd Century developed the technology based on Sontaran Cloning technology captured in the 21st Century.

Sorry, dumb question maybe, but how is the flesh technology inferior to Sontaran cloning technology. One appears to be a lot quicker with more realistic results with the possibility of a lifespan way beyond that of a Sontaran clone?

The voice of reason!

No, they had to keep Martha out of the way. Sontaran technology allows the clones to be separate with independent thought. The Flesh wasn't until the solar tsunami hit.

And I posted this on a few other threads:

He has seen a later, more developed version of the same technology. He says it often enough in the episode!

Along the lines of: "You have so much to learn...", and things.

There were visual clues pointing to Sontarans as well. When the episode first began and the gangers were walking around in acid suits, I immediately said they look like Sontarans.

Could be complete misdirection of course, but I can see why people have ended up thinking along those lines.

That's inaccurate: Stohl states "the clone needs full memory access... you will sleep girl, sleep, and keep the memories alive - memories we can use in battle", and Martha's clone dies because the Doctor releases Martha, stating that Martha in the harness is the only thing keeping the clone alive.

True, I forgot that bit... But it still doesn't explain why an earlier form of the technology would be technologically advanced enough to not need the feeding tubes. And also, the Flesh was only able to keep its phuysical form due to the solar tsunami - it was made quite clear that it should fall apart upon severance of the mental link. That wouldn't happen with the Sontaran clones.

Also, the mind link was only for the memories for the Sontaran clone, but in TRF, the link was to keep the duplicates physical...

That was my point, in either this thread or the other one, can't remember!