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Norway aims to switch off FM in 2017!
hanssolo
26-05-2011
Noticed P4 has had it's FM licence extended to 2017, and then along with other broadcasters will switch of FM!
http://blogs.rnw.nl/medianetwork/p4-...ence-in-norway
Quote:
“Hans-Holger Albrecht, President and CEO of MTG, commented: “P4 Radio is the leading commercial radio operator in Norway, one of the largest commercial media in Norway by reach. We are pleased to have the opportunity to extend our broadcasting licence and to play a leading role part in the transition to DAB digital radio broadcasting in Norway. Radio is a major and growing advertising medium in Norway, and the digitalisation process will only accelerate this development.””

Wonder if this date is really achievable? and Grant Godard has his doubts,
http://grantgoddardradioblog.blogspo...ssible-fm.html
Gunnar Garfor's blog seems to think it will work!
http://www.garfors.com/2011/02/norwa...es-off-fm.html
but MTG seem to have a much more positive approach than Global here!
Rossall
26-05-2011
The difference is their DAB doesn't use our shite system.
SouthCity
26-05-2011
Originally Posted by Rossall:
“The difference is their DAB doesn't use our shite system.”

They use "original-flavour" DAB (MP2) - exactly the same as us:

http://www.wohnort.org/DAB/norway.html
Rossall
26-05-2011
Originally Posted by SouthCity:
“They use "original-flavour" DAB (MP2) - exactly the same as us:

http://www.wohnort.org/DAB/norway.html”

Sorry, I just didn't think the Scandinavians could be that stupid..
hanssolo
26-05-2011
Originally Posted by SouthCity:
“They use "original-flavour" DAB (MP2) - exactly the same as us:

http://www.wohnort.org/DAB/norway.html”

Notice they have a lot more stations working at 160k and 192k, along with some DAB+ stations on test
TelevisionUser
06-01-2017
...and here it now is:

Norway's controversial radio switch-off
Norway will start switching off its FM radio network next week, in a controversial move that will be closely watched by other nations. Critics have said that the government is rushing the move, with one poll from newspaper Dagbladet suggesting 66% of Norwegians oppose it.


The actual change will take place on Wednesday 11 January and FM will be no more. The parties are split with the right wing parties for change, the Centre party opposed and Labour apparently sitting on the fence. In November 1000 or so complaints were made about poor local DAB coverage across the country but that wasn't enough to secure a postponement of the changeover.
Phil Dodd
Yesterday, 09:11
It is useful for people such as myself just ordinary members of the listening public to refer back to the Wikipedia page on DAB :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digita...o_broadcasting

One of the first facts is that it was in fact Norway who started the first DAB service, in 1995.

The web page about NRK KLASSISK is interesting :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRK_Klassisk

Only six people needed to operate a 24-hour channel ( try doing that in the BBC ). But far more interesting is that the audio is totally uncompressed from the replay device in the studio until it is encoded at the transmitter. That could say a lot…

The DAB saga has gone on FAR too long in the UK. Experiments started in the early 1980s… I seem to recall remembering mention of 1979 somewhere. The whole thing seems based around “committees having meetings about meetings”. When we consider the original technology of replacing regional FM transmitters with regional digital transmitters working on a higher frequency, it was bound to give reception problems. It often seems to be the case that there is poor reception around the base of one regional transmitter, which can be received around the base of the next regional transmitter.

Thank goodness for Muxco and the work of MattD, and for small scale DAB, two moves which have achieved so much to make DAB work successfully.

But there is still the ongoing DAB disaster of “waiting until a certain percentage of listeners are using DAB until we switch over”. All that is, is an excuse to do nothing. This is an industry that indeed wants to coast along doing nothing. With technology, you can't do that. I worked for over 30 years in the computer business. The first computer that I worked with was made in 1955, and was finally decommissioned in 1976 – that's 21 years. The next one lasted 4 years. And so it goes on, such that computers are outdated as they leave the factory. No sane industry is going to still have not fully implemented a technical system 35 years after it was initiated.

There is now the debate about DAB+. The fact remains that nobody can listen on DAB+ if they can't buy the equipment that decodes it. I keep saying that one of the biggest retailers in the UK, Tesco, has digital radios on the shelves none of which decode DAB+. Every mobile phone in the UK, which people under 25 use as their multimedia device, has an FM radio but no DAB or DAB+. Apparently there is one model of phone in Europe that has a DAB radio, but it isn't yet imported into the UK.

It seems obvious to me what needs to happen. Mobile phones should be imported as from now, featuring DAB and DAB+ radios. All DAB transmitters should be DAB+ ready. A switch-off for FM needs to be specified, giving everyone a deadline to aim for. Regional DAB transmitters need to be replaced by local ones giving coverage that works.

Until those things happen, this industry is going to carry on sleepwalking nowhere. We will be having the same discussion in 2018...

As to the original question that Norway is about to go DAB-only, good for them ! But with the impressive history that they have in using DAB, this is not at all surprising.
hanssolo
Yesterday, 10:02
Originally Posted by Phil Dodd:
“The web page about NRK KLASSISK is interesting :”

Looking at Wohnort NRK KLASSISK is now 96k DAB+ which is good.
But as in the UK there are probably a lot of non DAB+ sets, so the 5 stations HRK P1,P2 and P3, MTG's P4 and Bauer's Radio Norge about to lose FM in one region are still standard DAB 128 to 192k.

The main problem seems to be if car owners will buy adaptors to carry on listening to the 5 main national stations when local stations are still FM.
Vectorsum
Yesterday, 11:26
Originally Posted by Phil Dodd:
“...The fact remains that nobody can listen on DAB+ if they can't buy the equipment that decodes it. I keep saying that one of the biggest retailers in the UK, Tesco, has digital radios on the shelves none of which decode DAB+. Every mobile phone in the UK, which people under 25 use as their multimedia device, has an FM radio but no DAB or DAB+. Apparently there is one model of phone in Europe that has a DAB radio, but it isn't yet imported into the UK.

It seems obvious to me what needs to happen. Mobile phones should be imported as from now, featuring DAB and DAB+ radios. All DAB transmitters should be DAB+ ready. A switch-off for FM needs to be specified, giving everyone a deadline to aim for. Regional DAB transmitters need to be replaced by local ones giving coverage that works...”

The vast majority of UEs (mobile phone handsets) are sourced on contract or PAYG via the operators themselves, who decide which functionality is switched on or off. Practically all have a single-chip FM receiver implementation but this may or may not be disabled in firmware, or the relevant driver not included in the firmware image, depending on whether the operator wants to push its own data packages to drive consumer downloads of media and music.

You might find it astonishing that the FM chip would be present but not enabled, but as an example consider that it would be trivially simple to implement an in-phone answering machine but no operator provides one, as they want to drive in-network ansafones. In particular messages left by UEs roaming abroad, that result in a 'tromboned' call-forwarding leg back from the roaming operator to the home network then an international call back from the roaming operator to the home network ansafone entity to collect the message, are pure cash-cow profit.

DAB/+ arrived late to this particular party, and in a mobile network environment where big bucks were being made by operators when millenials exceed their download packages and have to buy extra data there was really no chance of DAB/+ making it into phones, even if there were a ready available single-chip implementation with millimetre form-factor, which there isn't.

Now add to this the fact that, plus or minus a few other territories around the globe, DAB/+ is really a European regional standard. The large Korean and Chinese manufacturers therefore have no incentive to develop a solution with the appropriate form factor for inclusion in phones, on the off-chance that an independent phone reseller might activate this. All of this adds up to where we are with (non) inclusion of DAB/+ in mobile phones today.

As to Tesco having shelves of digital radios none of which can receive DAB+, there are reports elsewhere on here that contradict that. There are even some where a radio bought from a supermarket that has no branding or hint anywhere of DAB+ capability, in fact is able to receive DAB+ when fired up.
swb1964
Yesterday, 11:32
Originally Posted by hanssolo:
“Looking at Wohnort NRK KLASSISK is now 96k DAB+ which is good.
.”

For those of us who struggle with these things roughly what is 96k DAB + equivalent to in old DAB money? 160k? 192?
tghe-retford
Yesterday, 11:55
Originally Posted by SouthCity:
“They use "original-flavour" DAB (MP2) - exactly the same as us:

http://www.wohnort.org/DAB/norway.html”

On that very same page you linked to, it informs listeners that when FM transmissions will start being closed down in four days time, NRK's DAB transmissions will also completely transition to DAB+.
wicksta
Yesterday, 12:06
Originally Posted by Vectorsum:
“The vast majority of UEs (mobile phone handsets) are sourced on contract or PAYG via the operators themselves, who decide which functionality is switched on or off. Practically all have a single-chip FM receiver implementation but this may or may not be disabled in firmware, or the relevant driver not included in the firmware image, depending on whether the operator wants to push its own data packages to drive consumer downloads of media and music.

You might find it astonishing that the FM chip would be present but not enabled, but as an example consider that it would be trivially simple to implement an in-phone answering machine but no operator provides one, as they want to drive in-network ansafones. In particular messages left by UEs roaming abroad, that result in a 'tromboned' call-forwarding leg back from the roaming operator to the home network then an international call back from the roaming operator to the home network ansafone entity to collect the message, are pure cash-cow profit.”

Do you have any specific examples of devices that have had the FM chip disabled by a mobile operator in the UK? I worked for 10 years at one of them, including in the devices area in the modern smartphone era and I've never ever heard of such a thing so yes I do find that claim astonishing.

Also, for a mobile operator to support some kind of in phone answering app across all devices, that wouldn't be trivial at all! You can get third party apps that do this though if you want to, it's not something I've ever heard that customers want though hence there is no massively popular on device answerphone app.

I must admit UE is a new one on me too, what does that stand for?
tghe-retford
Yesterday, 12:30
Originally Posted by Phil Dodd:
“But there is still the ongoing DAB disaster of “waiting until a certain percentage of listeners are using DAB until we switch over”. All that is, is an excuse to do nothing. This is an industry that indeed wants to coast along doing nothing. With technology, you can't do that. I worked for over 30 years in the computer business. The first computer that I worked with was made in 1955, and was finally decommissioned in 1976 – that's 21 years. The next one lasted 4 years. And so it goes on, such that computers are outdated as they leave the factory. No sane industry is going to still have not fully implemented a technical system 35 years after it was initiated.”

In a time where people are changing far more expensive TV's, mobile phones, computers, games consoles, broadband services and other tech devices every few years, if that in some cases. Yet radio is the odd one out. If you ask someone of the idea of replacing their FM or even DAB only radio with a DAB+ one, the reply will likely come back as "no, absolutely not". There is this idea with FM switchover and DAB+ transition that whilst a single FM/DAB only radio exists, we can't switch. If we applied that thinking to digital TV switchover, we'd still be broadcasting in 405-line black and white!

There is also the problem that we are looking at FM with rose tinted glasses - FM isn't perfect - the concepts of a lower sample rate than a standard DAB(+) station, less spectrum efficient and noticeable hiss being annoying are suddenly ignored. You're seeing the same behaviour with DAB now DAB+ is here - the concepts of a lower audio quality than DAB+ for the same bitrate, less spectrum efficient and noticeable "bubbling mud" because DAB error protection is less efficient than DAB+ are suddenly ignored sees history repeating itself.
Originally Posted by Phil Dodd:
“There is now the debate about DAB+. The fact remains that nobody can listen on DAB+ if they can't buy the equipment that decodes it. I keep saying that one of the biggest retailers in the UK, Tesco, has digital radios on the shelves none of which decode DAB+. Every mobile phone in the UK, which people under 25 use as their multimedia device, has an FM radio but no DAB or DAB+. Apparently there is one model of phone in Europe that has a DAB radio, but it isn't yet imported into the UK.”

The idea that there are still DAB only sets is a shambles. Even with the Digital Radio UK tick mark (or in the case of Norway, their equivalent), there is still a situation where lower priced sets (the ones most people tend to buy) are like the digital radio wild west.

Even worse is that there is little to no consumer information about radio tuner sensitivity. Someone can buy a DAB radio for any price and just expect it to work. Online reviews are very subjective - one person can state a radio works well, another can complain it doesn't work. When I did my own personal investigation into pocket radio tuner sensitivity (the one radio type where sensitivity is vital and information was badly lacking for consumers to make a informed decision), I was surprised at the wide chasm between radios. A couple of radios I had could detect, one locked onto, the weak Derbyshire multiplex which only the likes of the Sangean DPR-69+/Roberts Play or Wintal DAB10B could lock on to whilst others couldn't even maintain a stable signal from a mast three kilometeres away! Price is not a determiner of radio reception, a radio costing at the moment £40 can beat one costing £60+ though even with this information to hand, price is a major determining factor in a decision to purchase a radio. Depressingly, there seems to be some correlation between higher sales numbers on Amazon and pocket radios with weaker tuners. Which can't help the reputation of DAB being one of poor reception and 'not a patch on FM'.

As for FM radio in mobile phones and DAB being missing, the trend is for mobile phone manufacturers to remove these tuners from sets, with one exception, the LG Stylus 2. But that phone is an outlier. Mobile phone manufacturers and networks would rather we use more financially lucrative for them mobile data for radio listening at a time where mobile phone prices are rising significantly, data allowances are falling, add-ons are being sold to consumers so networks can profit and the mobile phone networks are raising prices of their packages as the addiction of smartphones really takes hold. And even then, you're more likely to see people using their smartphones to listen to MP3's, Spotify Premium or another streaming service than listen to radio on the move.
Vectorsum
Yesterday, 12:46
Originally Posted by wicksta:
“Do you have any specific examples of devices that have had the FM chip disabled by a mobile operator in the UK? I worked for 10 years at one of them, including in the devices area in the modern smartphone era and I've never ever heard of such a thing so yes I do find that claim astonishing.

Also, for a mobile operator to support some kind of in phone answering app across all devices, that wouldn't be trivial at all! You can get third party apps that do this though if you want to, it's not something I've ever heard that customers want though hence there is no massively popular on device answerphone app.

I must admit UE is a new one on me too, what does that stand for?”

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=phones+with...o+FM+reception

It really, really hurts to quote anything from the insipid excuse for a "newspaper" such as the Daily Fail but seeing as you asked me to do the work of finding an example of a radio-crippled phone for you rather than doing it yourself, I offer you this "article" which states that the iPhone 6 has the in-built Murata 339S0228 deactivated. Most probably there's just no driver implemented in the firmware rather than the external links not being connected, as this might compromise other features of the chip.

Although if you'd said at the start rather than at the end that you had "worked 10 years with an operator and didn't know what a UE was", I would have saved the time not reading the rest of your post.
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