[soultrader]

Many on here are spouting 'its the law, its the law'

couple of questions that you might help me with:

1) please direct me to the precedent case that has proven the law you spout. (tip, prs and ppl run a mile from courts)

2) please direct me to one single case where the amounts charged by prs / ppl have been tested in a court of law as a 'fair price' - trading standards may be better used here.

do you realise that PPL alone are charging small broadcasters the equivalent of £72 for a single full time listener on a web stream?


Royalties are a racket and the copyright law is exploited through loopholes which allows producers writers and artists to claim again and again and again.

by the way, this post is copyright to me so if you quote it in a reply can i get royalties for you using it again to prove your point please? and if that is quoted i'll have some more please. and for everyone that reads it i want some too please. if i die i'd like you to keep paying to my relatives for fifty years.

That ok?

what an absolute racket - perform once - paid forever.

Bloodsuckers.

[JELLIES0]

Originally Posted by Wizard

The licence isn't just for radio. It covers any music (also from CD's, mp3's, Spotify etc) that a business might want to use to entertain it's staff and / or customers.

Work places have to pay for other services (waste, water, electrics, etc). Why should they be allowed to use other people's work (in this case music) for free?

The music industry's on it's knees at the moment. The last thing it needs is another lost source of income.

Utter tosh

[trevgo]

I moved my micro business to an industrial estate 9 months ago, and sure enough, I got a letter from PRS yesterday stating that they have no licence recorded for the premises, and that I must either pay up or email them to confirm no music is played on the premises.

They also advise that if it is, I will also need a PPL licence.

There are 4 of us in the building, and we have 6 Music on all day in both office and warehouse.

Should I ignore it or let them come and find me? What are the chances? It's bloody ridiculous - more people hear the radio in my house than in my business.

[Inkblot]

Originally Posted by soultrader

by the way, this post is copyright to me so if you quote it in a reply can i get royalties for you using it again to prove your point please?

The cheque's in the post.

[lundavra]

Originally Posted by soultrader

Many on here are spouting 'its the law, its the law'

couple of questions that you might help me with:.....

It seems to work very like the scam where lawyers were making threats to people about downloading films, games etc from the Internet on very doubtful evidence that would not have much chance of standing up in court. They offered to not take the case to court for some fixed amount which many people paid. I don't think a single case ever went to court and some of the legal companies involved were disciplined by their trade association.

It can perhaps also be compared with the way that wheel clampers operate in England and Wales (the Scots are more sensible!).

[lundavra]

Originally Posted by trevgo

I moved my micro business to an industrial estate 9 months ago, and sure enough, I got a letter from PRS yesterday stating that they have no licence recorded for the premises, and that I must either pay up or email them to confirm no music is played on the premises.

They also advise that if it is, I will also need a PPL licence.

There are 4 of us in the building, and we have 6 Music on all day in both office and warehouse.

Should I ignore it or let them come and find me? What are the chances? It's bloody ridiculous - more people hear the radio in my house than in my business.

I don't think they have any right to enter your premises so if there is no access to the public then they would need to prove their case from somewhere accessible to the public or get a warrant from a court to enter the premises.

If the gate is open into the site then I wonder if you could display a notice with an access charge and charge them if they entered?

I wonder what would happen if someone left a radio running on 6Music on their radio in the car park then a claim to have heard music would be meaningless?

[trevgo]

Originally Posted by lundavra

I don't think they have any right to enter your premises so if there is no access to the public then they would need to prove their case from somewhere accessible to the public or get a warrant from a court to enter the premises.

If the gate is open into the site then I wonder if you could display a notice with an access charge and charge them if they entered?

I wonder what would happen if someone left a radio running on 6Music on their radio in the car park then a claim to have heard music would be meaningless?

"Gate" ... "site"...?

It's a small 2000ft unit in a terrace! I will move my Pure One, as you can see the ariel sticking up through the window from outside!! (DAB reception poor around here).

[Richard O'Hagan]

Originally Posted by lundavra

I don't think they have any right to enter your premises so if there is no access to the public then they would need to prove their case from somewhere accessible to the public or get a warrant from a court to enter the premises.

They don't need to enter, they can, say, phone, lying to be a customer. If they discern music in the background, or trick an employee into confirming music is on (e.g. by asking what song is playing), you're busted.

As somebody said above, PRS's interpretation of the law has never been tested as small businesses can't afford to take it to the high court, but one day somebody will, and it'd be nice if PRS/PPL were required to refund the millions.

[Inkblot]

Originally Posted by Richard O'Hagan

As somebody said above, PRS's interpretation of the law has never been tested .

Was there ever a judgment in the case of PRS v Kwik-Fit? One web site says "there does not appear to be a final decision in this case" - is it still unresolved?

[Mapperley Ridge]

Trev...

I really do sympathise with you on this one but unless you have the energy and the money to launch a test case in court, it's probably best to pay up.

[lundavra]

Originally Posted by Richard O'Hagan

They don't need to enter, they can, say, phone, lying to be a customer. If they discern music in the background, or trick an employee into confirming music is on (e.g. by asking what song is playing), you're busted.

As somebody said above, PRS's interpretation of the law has never been tested as small businesses can't afford to take it to the high court, but one day somebody will, and it'd be nice if PRS/PPL were required to refund the millions.

I was going to ask that, has hearing music over a phone ever been tested in court? I would thought any decent lawyer would be able to get it thrown out of court.

How do they know where the phone is answered, it could be anywhere - someone working at home, India ...

[GPW]

I wonder if they enforced the licencing when the BBC used to play During the war and up till 1967 Music While You Work?

[Richard_T]

Apparently the PRS are now after Scouts who may sing a copyrighted song round the campfire, or who may play a musicla instrument for the musicians badge, as its aparently a live performance and must be licensed/paid for

[Richard O'Hagan]

Originally Posted by lundavra

I was going to ask that, has hearing music over a phone ever been tested in court? I would thought any decent lawyer would be able to get it thrown out of court.

How do they know where the phone is answered, it could be anywhere - someone working at home, India ...

The reality is, small businesses have better things to do than employ lawyers to fight this mafia, they always settle out of court (i.e. pay up).

I think local courts usually believe PRS - you'd have to take it to the high court to be overturned, and that's gonna cost a 5 figure sum.

I'm not against paying for "public performance" but, imho, a standalone radio is not capable of public performance.

When background music is a valuable part of a business (e.g. to encourage customer spend) stores have a proper PA system, not a small radio in the corner playing ads for their competitor across the road.

[Richard O'Hagan]

Originally Posted by Richard_T

Apparently the PRS are now after Scouts who may sing a copyrighted song round the campfire, or who may play a musicla instrument for the musicians badge, as its aparently a live performance and must be licensed/paid for

I bet they also charge undertakers. In PRS's universe, if there are more than 2 stiffs in the freezer, that constitutes a public performance.

Charity shops are also a revenue stream for PRS.
Yes, money donated to help sick children actually pays for swanky music biz offices in central London.

[Inkblot]

Originally Posted by Richard O'Hagan

I bet they also charge undertakers. In PRS's universe, if there are more than 2 stiffs in the freezer, that constitutes a public performance.

I bet they do charge undertakers, because undertakers have extensive music libraries which they use for commercial purposes: playing Angels over the crematorium PA, that sort of thing. In this world, nothing is certain except death, taxes, and PRS.

[lundavra]

Originally Posted by Richard O'Hagan

The reality is, small businesses have better things to do than employ lawyers to fight this mafia, they always settle out of court (i.e. pay up). ....

As I suggested, they work like the scum who frighten elderly people to pay up for supposed downloading of computer games that they have never heard of.

Originally Posted by Inkblot

I bet they do charge undertakers, because undertakers have extensive music libraries which they use for commercial purposes: playing Angels over the crematorium PA, that sort of thing. In this world, nothing is certain except death, taxes, and PRS.

I would think most undertakers don't own the crematoriums and they can probably get hold of suitable copyright free music for use in their Chapel of Rest.

[Inkblot]

Originally Posted by lundavra

I would think most undertakers don't own the crematoriums and they can probably get hold of suitable copyright free music for use in their Chapel of Rest.

I don't actually know but I imagine the cost of playing copyright material is built into their charges. Every funeral I've been to has had music played, usually provided by the funeral directors; on one occasion I had to email an iTunes link to the undertaker so he could put a song on his hard drive.

[frappy]

Not sure if this point has been made in the discussion of PRS. How many artists/musicians/groups/bands etc........gained fame and fortune by having their sounds played on the radio. Perhaps they should pay the radio stations to play their music. Don't bring up payola, I am aware of that. Thoughts!

[Pete McIntosh]

Originally Posted by frappy

Not sure if this point has been made in the discussion of PRS. How many artists/musicians/groups/bands etc........gained fame and fortune by having their sounds played on the radio. Perhaps they should pay the radio stations to play their music. Don't bring up payola, I am aware of that. Thoughts!

I dealt with this point in my blog (link further up the thread!). In the past you would undoubtedly have had a point - many artists have of course got their big break through radio airplay. But in this day and age there are so many other avenues for bands to explore - social media, numerous TV channels, streaming services etc. Bands don't need radio the way they used to and there have been many examples over recent years of tracks that have become big hits with minimal radio airplay.

But whereas bands could do without radio, the opposite doesn't apply. Brands like Capital, Heart, Magic are almost entirely reliant upon music to shape their sound and sell their product to both the public and advertisers - without music they're stuffed.

In summary, these days I don't think you're argument holds water like it may have done in the past.

[Felonious Munk]

Originally Posted by JELLIES0

Utter tosh

but accurate.

[wildehavana]

Originally Posted by Galaxy266

And I hope they wrote to LBC telling them they were no longer listening, what they'd done and why!

But LBC don't play records, they just talk

The licence is only for music.

[bowland37]

The PRS requirements in the Jobcentre are probably more important these days.

[Richard O'Hagan]

Originally Posted by Pete McIntosh

But whereas bands could do without radio, the opposite doesn't apply.

Music is indeed a valuable part of a radio station's product so should be paid for, but this thread is about non-radio businesses getting stung for royalties when staff have the radio on.

I don't visit Hurry Up 'n Dye hair salon to overhear Take That on the stylists crappy little radio, so why should my bill include a fee to them?

[Inkblot]

Originally Posted by Richard O'Hagan

I don't visit Hurry Up 'n Dye hair salon to overhear Take That on the stylists crappy little radio, so why should my bill include a fee to them?

I know it was 04.35 when you posted this but it really doesn't make sense.

You don't have any say in what overheads a business pays. It's nothing to do with you.