[cavemanjames]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moox

You don't think that there is something odd in that he joins Nokia from Microsoft, and then proceeds to shut down the Symbian operation, just about kill MeeGo, and then announce that all of their phones are going to run a Microsoft operating system?

Especially when WP7 is far from dominant. It'd make Nokia a lot more sense to go Android - and Nokia's great hardware combined with Android would be rather good.

Actually... I think that's just pure FUD as it goes.

If they were to just go with Android... They wouldn't be able to differentiate themselves which is what they wanted to do. They wanted to be different from the market. Were they to go with Android... They wouldn't be able to add much more to Android that isn't already there.

I think they made the right choice with WP7 and it was lucky that Microsoft was willing to let them mess around with WP7 as much as they wanted to. More devices now == Nokia will stick around longer, from what I've read they literally only had 3 MeeGo devices planned by the end of 2014. That's not going to help them much. They knew Symbian was becoming old and not really anything near the competition so they couldn't exactly stick that one out.

Like I said... There's probably a reason Elop left Microsoft.

[TheBigM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moox

You don't think that there is something odd in that he joins Nokia from Microsoft, and then proceeds to shut down the Symbian operation, just about kill MeeGo, and then announce that all of their phones are going to run a Microsoft operating system?

Especially when WP7 is far from dominant. It'd make Nokia a lot more sense to go Android - and Nokia's great hardware combined with Android would be rather good.

Much of that is just wrong. Symbian was dying long before Elop came on board. There's a reason there was a search for a new CEO in the first place and a reason they brought in one from outside - Nokia had grown insular and had cognitive lock-in from past successes and was dying, the board recognised it and got someone new in to try to save the company.

MeeGo just was not a goer - read the statements freely made recently by the head of MeeGo's development, it was a glacial project. A nokia phone with android might be nice for the consumer but where's the ability to differentiate against HTC and Samsung on just hardware. Nokia were originally going to own an entire ecosystem, becoming just another OEM for someone else's platform would have killed their margins completely. What about their other assets like NavTeq? Android is a way to puch Google's services like Google Maps.

Nokia is getting over $1bn from MS just for development costs, they get their own marketplace rather than the stock MS one so they get a cut of the profits, they get to use their mapping and sell its services to the other WP OEMs, they get to use their media licenses (e.g. for music) in countries where zune hasn't launched yet. There's a lot of scope for Nokia to add value in the WP ecosystem in content and software terms, with Android all it can do is sell handsets running someone else's software and they can't live at the margins, chinese makers would drive them down to.

[tghe-retford]

Such a move would have consequences for KDE, whose software compilation is built on QT. Should such a move happen, I wonder how the KDE developers would deal with it?

[moox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigM

Much of that is just wrong. Symbian was dying long before Elop came on board. There's a reason there was a search for a new CEO in the first place and a reason they brought in one from outside - Nokia had grown insular and had cognitive lock-in from past successes and was dying, the board recognised it and got someone new in to try to save the company.

And as it stands he's effectively halted sales until whenever they get a WP7 device out the door. He has also managed to alienate just about all of Nokia's talent - those who are disgusted by the effective takeover of the company by Microsoft.

Steve Jobs seems to be able to do it right - launch new product (and don't announce it until nearer to the time you can get something out the door), run both in tandem, kill older/lower quality product.

But now that we know Nokia is going to be Microsoft's hardware arm, no one is going to buy any Symbian based handset they sell - including ones they have only just released.

I wasn't denying that Symbian was past it - just querying the link between Elop's past and where he is taking the company he now controls - straight into the embrace of his last employer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigM

MeeGo just was not a goer - read the statements freely made recently by the head of MeeGo's development, it was a glacial project. A nokia phone with android might be nice for the consumer but where's the ability to differentiate against HTC and Samsung on just hardware. Nokia were originally going to own an entire ecosystem, becoming just another OEM for someone else's platform would have killed their margins completely. What about their other assets like NavTeq? Android is a way to puch Google's services like Google Maps.

You don't think the same is true of WP7? Its integration with MS services is just as tight as Google's services with Android.

You don't even need to put the Google software on a device - if you compile the Android OS from source that's how it comes. No Google software, no Google integration.

They really are just an OEM for someone else's platform. Microsoft's platform.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigM

Nokia is getting over $1bn from MS just for development costs, they get their own marketplace rather than the stock MS one so they get a cut of the profits, they get to use their mapping and sell its services to the other WP OEMs, they get to use their media licenses (e.g. for music) in countries where zune hasn't launched yet. There's a lot of scope for Nokia to add value in the WP ecosystem in content and software terms, with Android all it can do is sell handsets running someone else's software and they can't live at the margins, chinese makers would drive them down to.

There's nothing stopping Nokia creating its own mapping application from its own data - just because Google has one it doesn't stop anyone else from doing the same. This isn't the iPhone.

Equally, they could create their own market on Android - just as Amazon has done, for example.

Most of what you have suggested would be just as doable on Android as it is on WP7.

[TheBigM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moox

And as it stands he's effectively halted sales until whenever they get a WP7 device out the door. He has also managed to alienate just about all of Nokia's talent - those who are disgusted by the effective takeover of the company by Microsoft.

Steve Jobs seems to be able to do it right - launch new product (and don't announce it until nearer to the time you can get something out the door), run both in tandem, kill older/lower quality product.

But now that we know Nokia is going to be Microsoft's hardware arm, no one is going to buy any Symbian based handset they sell - including ones they have only just released.

I wasn't denying that Symbian was past it - just querying the link between Elop's past and where he is taking the company he now controls - straight into the embrace of his last employer.



You don't think the same is true of WP7? Its integration with MS services is just as tight as Google's services with Android.

You don't even need to put the Google software on a device - if you compile the Android OS from source that's how it comes. No Google software, no Google integration.

They really are just an OEM for someone else's platform. Microsoft's platform.



There's nothing stopping Nokia creating its own mapping application from its own data - just because Google has one it doesn't stop anyone else from doing the same. This isn't the iPhone.

Equally, they could create their own market on Android - just as Amazon has done, for example.

Most of what you have suggested would be just as doable on Android as it is on WP7.

Technically, you can take Android and do what you like to it, but if you do a bit of reading on the internet you will find that basically Google exert power on the OEMs to do it their way. Google basically demand certain things of you such as not putting competing services on the phones or they won't allow you access to any of their stuff. They've already bullied major players like HTC in this way. An android phone without access to android market, to gmail, to google maps and the rest of it is not going to sell.

Re: the announcement, it's debatable how much symbian would have carried on selling if they hadn't said they were ditching it. But they HAD to announce a new strategy or the shareholders would have destroyed Nokia and Elop and all the rest of them would be out on their ear. As Elop didn't have any positive MeeGo news, he had to turn to either Android or WP7, of the two he made the right choice IMO. He had to announce to the City analysts the about-turn he was taking. The early announcement of the Nokia deal also injected a great deal of confidence into the entire WP7 platform too. And $1bn is no small amount of money, I very much doubt Google would have made such an offer to them.

[Everything Goes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moox

You don't think that there is something odd in that he joins Nokia from Microsoft, and then proceeds to shut down the Symbian operation, just about kill MeeGo, and then announce that all of their phones are going to run a Microsoft operating system?

Especially when WP7 is far from dominant. It'd make Nokia a lot more sense to go Android - and Nokia's great hardware combined with Android would be rather good.

Here is an interesting snippet about MeeGo.

Before the first interview, Elop drew out what he knew about the plans for MeeGo on a whiteboard, with a different color marker for the products being developed, their target date for introduction, and the current levels of bugs in each product. Soon the whiteboard was filled with color, and the news was not good: At its current pace, Nokia was on track to introduce only three MeeGo-driven models before 2014-far too slow to keep the company in the game. Elop tried to call Oistämö, but his phone battery was dead. "He must have been trying an Android phone that day," says Elop. When they finally spoke late on Jan. 4, "It was truly an oh-shit moment-and really, really painful to realize where we were," says Oistämö. Months later, Oistämö still struggles to hold back tears. "MeeGo had been the collective hope of the company," he says, "and we'd come to the conclusion that the emperor had no clothes. It's not a nice thing."

http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/02/t...abandon-meego/

[technoflare]

although I was initially unsure about Nokia going with Microsoft it does seem now as the best choice. Android is a very crowded market with HTC already offtering premium phones with a enhansed front end. Nokia would find it hard to come in to a mature marketplace when HTC and Samsung have such a head start. With the partnership they have with Microsoft they can offer something new and both parties could benefit. If they do a good job I may even buy a Nokia phone again someday.... Hoping that between Android, Windows and BB that iPhone will continue to be squeezed!

[clonmult]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everything Goes

Here is an interesting snippet about MeeGo.

Before the first interview, Elop drew out what he knew about the plans for MeeGo on a whiteboard, with a different color marker for the products being developed, their target date for introduction, and the current levels of bugs in each product. Soon the whiteboard was filled with color, and the news was not good: At its current pace, Nokia was on track to introduce only three MeeGo-driven models before 2014-far too slow to keep the company in the game. Elop tried to call Oistämö, but his phone battery was dead. "He must have been trying an Android phone that day," says Elop. When they finally spoke late on Jan. 4, "It was truly an oh-shit moment-and really, really painful to realize where we were," says Oistämö. Months later, Oistämö still struggles to hold back tears. "MeeGo had been the collective hope of the company," he says, "and we'd come to the conclusion that the emperor had no clothes. It's not a nice thing."

http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/02/t...abandon-meego/

That 3 phones comment shows how chronically out of touch Nokia have been.

How many different phones have Apple released in the last few years? 1 a year. Thats it.

Its not a question of quantity, its a question of quality. Nokia typically produced 101 variants on a phone, either for themselves or minor revisions for specific operators.

Apple have got it totally right - just having 1 prime version (memory being the only difference) of each variant, and basically tell the operators to take it.

From the preview videos of the forthcoming Meego phone, it seems as thought Oistämö is one of the classically incompetent idiotic managers from the "old" Nokia/Symbian days.

I do like my N8 - its a damn good phone, for my usage (imaging, video, calls, some gaming, web, etc.) its probably by far and away the best choice, but Nokia needed a real kick up the butt, and Elops whole choice smacks of being a MS man through and through.

[TheBigM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonmult

That 3 phones comment shows how chronically out of touch Nokia have been.

How many different phones have Apple released in the last few years? 1 a year. Thats it.

Its not a question of quantity, its a question of quality. Nokia typically produced 101 variants on a phone, either for themselves or minor revisions for specific operators.

Apple have got it totally right - just having 1 prime version (memory being the only difference) of each variant, and basically tell the operators to take it.

From the preview videos of the forthcoming Meego phone, it seems as thought Oistämö is one of the classically incompetent idiotic managers from the "old" Nokia/Symbian days.

I do like my N8 - its a damn good phone, for my usage (imaging, video, calls, some gaming, web, etc.) its probably by far and away the best choice, but Nokia needed a real kick up the butt, and Elops whole choice smacks of being a MS man through and through.

Again, what would you have done in his shoes?

[mrvgarg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonmult

That 3 phones comment shows how chronically out of touch Nokia have been.

How many different phones have Apple released in the last few years? 1 a year. Thats it.

Its not a question of quantity, its a question of quality. .

Apple also make laptops, desktops and sofware with different variations. iPhone is a secondary objective for the company. Nokia's main business is mobile phones.