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Old 05-06-2011, 12:46
TempestWylde
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Demons run when a good man goes to war
Night will fall and drown in sun
When a good man goes to war
Friendship dies and true love lies
Night will fall and the dark will rise
When a good man goes to war
Demons run but count the cost
The battles won but the child is lost


For no other purpose than having the poem open to debate and interpretation...
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:51
Webslark
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Demons run when a good man goes to war
Night will fall and drown in sun
When a good man goes to war
Friendship dies and true love lies
Night will fall and the dark will rise
When a good man goes to war
Demons run but count the cost
The battles won but the child is lost


For no other purpose than having the poem open to debate and interpretation...
and now we mine the poem for clues.to the next six.episodes!!!
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:54
Gin&Tonic
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Who's the author? Mr Moffet?

OK! Let's rip it to bits then...
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:54
TempestWylde
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and now we mine the poem for clues.to the next six.episodes!!!
That's the plan....
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Old 05-06-2011, 13:31
Spence1115
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Mostly about the battle.

Demons run when a good man goes to war

Army fleeing the Doctor

Night will fall and drown in sun
When a good man goes to war

I think 'night' is a reference to not only the 'darkest hour' for the Doctor, but also to the end of his image as somewhat of a 'knight'. Not sure by the 'drown in sun' other than 'rhymes with run' though.

Friendship dies and true love lies

Friendship dies: Amy and Rory's friendship with the Doctor is damaged, and Doctor and River's friendship is 'dead', replaced by a new relationship. Not to mention a number of the Doctor's friends (Strax, Dorium) dying.

True love lies: I'm guessing a reference to River as the Doctor's 'love', either telling lies, perhaps whispered to the Doctor, or as a baby lying in the cot. Perhaps even connected to when the baby River a flesh avatar and that was her 'lying' about being herself.


Night will fall and the dark will rise
When a good man goes to war

See above

Demons run but count the cost
The battles won but the child is lost

Obvious



For no other purpose than having the poem open to debate and interpretation...
The 'true love lies' could be something else that we don't know yet, perhaps there were lies between Rory and Amy.

No idea about 'drown in sun' though.
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Old 05-06-2011, 13:35
RacerWelsh
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True love lies - I think is in reference to River and the Dr.
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Old 05-06-2011, 13:57
SillyBillyGoat
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I loved the sequence of the poem in sync with the battle
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Old 05-06-2011, 14:07
finduilas4ab
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What intrigued me was that the asteroid was called Demon's Run (about 45 seconds in there's a subtitle). Poor grammar, or something more interesting?
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Old 05-06-2011, 14:09
kitthekat
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Maybe because when the place was named, it was named as Demon's Run (as in, this is the place belong to the demons; this is where they run), as opposed to being a part of a bigger poem/story? When it was first named, I wouldn't have thought they would know that at some point in the future a good man would go to war over a baby there.
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Old 05-06-2011, 14:16
trade_star
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Maybe because when the place was named, it was named as Demon's Run (as in, this is the place belong to the demons; this is where they run), as opposed to being a part of a bigger poem/story? When it was first named, I wouldn't have thought they would know that at some point in the future a good man would go to war over a baby there.
When the Colonel and Madame Kavorian visit Big Blue he connects the poem to the place.

The Colonel dismisses the connection as a myth, suggesting that the origin of the name, if it is the poem, has been lost.
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Old 05-06-2011, 14:18
MinkytheDog
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What intrigued me was that the asteroid was called Demon's Run (about 45 seconds in there's a subtitle). Poor grammar, or something more interesting?
Nah - just a missing comma - easier to write it as seperate lines - then it works....

Demons Run.
When a good man goes to war, night will fall and drown in sun.
When a good man goes to war, friendship dies and true love lies.
Night will fall and the dark will rise when a good man goes to war.
Demons Run.
But count the cost, the battles won but the child is lost.


What I find more interesting is that it's actually a description of specific events - a history. It's a tale written afterwards by someone who was there or has been told of the events at some time in the future.

Anyone who has read "Dune" will know that the first time you read it, the brief intros at the top of each chapter make little sense - until you get to the end of the book and discover that they were written by a character we haven't met and the whole book is actually a biography written by the heroes future "wife". Once you know that, you realise that they are not just snippets of waffle, they're cross-referencing other things she writes - in later volumes.
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Old 05-06-2011, 14:18
TheSilentFez
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Demons run when a good man goes to war
Night will fall and drown in sun
When a good man goes to war
Friendship dies and true love lies
Night will fall and the dark will rise
When a good man goes to war
Demons run but count the cost
The battles won but the child is lost


For no other purpose than having the poem open to debate and interpretation...
Time to bring in by GCSE standard English Literature skills, methinks...
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Old 05-06-2011, 14:26
trade_star
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Demons run when a good man goes to war
Night will fall and drown in sun
When a good man goes to war
Friendship dies and true love lies
Night will fall and the dark will rise
When a good man goes to war
Demons run but count the cost
The battles won but the child is lost


For no other purpose than having the poem open to debate and interpretation...
More generally on the grammar point there should be a comma after the final "run" and a semi colon (or, depending on how you read it, a colon) after "cost".

Otherwise it suggests that the running Demons count the cost, and the final line doesn't make sense.
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Old 05-06-2011, 14:55
Tobyak
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there is a second hint...

River recognises the cot "i havnt seen that in a long time".

River shows the doctor who she is by showing him the inscription on the cot NOT the prayer leaf the cot bears the Doctors name (as it was his) not Rivers, but he reads his name and knows who she is.. and the "hello... but we...." hes fascinated that he shared a kiss with himself

Timeords became what they are be prolonged exposure to the time vortex and the untemperes scism.

Enough tme travel and you can become a time lord, and the baby allready had a head start
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Old 05-06-2011, 14:56
rostaria
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there is a second hint...

River recognises the cot "i havnt seen that in a long time".

River shows the doctor who she is by showing him the inscription on the cot NOT the prayer leaf the cot bears the Doctors name (as it was his) not Rivers, but he reads his name and knows who she is.. and the "hello... but we...." hes fascinated that he shared a kiss with himself

Timeords became what they are be prolonged exposure to the time vortex and the untemperes scism.

Enough tme travel and you can become a time lord, and the baby allready had a head start
*Face Palm.*
he didnt share a kiss with himself. River is completely different person simple.
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Old 05-06-2011, 15:03
Tobyak
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*Face Palm.*
he didnt share a kiss with himself. River is completely different person simple.
I love a good facepalm... ok so yes all timelords in there different incarnations are different ppl. BUT, the idea still works
look at how supprised and absolutly fasinatwed he is with the revelation... give me another theory that can answer why reading his own name on his cot reveals rivers identity
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Old 05-06-2011, 15:18
alwatson
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*Face Palm.*
he didnt share a kiss with himself. River is completely different person simple.
+, if he kissed himslf, wouldn't that weird blimonecojokovich effect (you know what I mean, the timey wimey explodey one), had make his face(s) explode?
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Old 05-06-2011, 15:22
Tobyak
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yes and no, they would be the same entity at different points in there time stream but not the actuial same person

althoug in the comic releaf tennant/davidson crossover they couldnt touch due to timey wimey, but i doubt thatis considered cannon
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Old 05-06-2011, 15:24
rostaria
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I love a good facepalm... ok so yes all timelords in there different incarnations are different ppl. BUT, the idea still works
look at how supprised and absolutly fasinatwed he is with the revelation... give me another theory that can answer why reading his own name on his cot reveals rivers identity
Because she can read Galifreyan.
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Old 05-06-2011, 15:36
Tobyak
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Because she can read Galifreyan.
sorry im not sure if you are against or for the theory lol

FOR - she reads the language of the time lords, a language the tardis will not translate (as its the tardis's native language) how did she learn it, can a non trimelord read it (weve seen nothing to prove a non timelord can read it or not grrr)

AGANST - they had years and years for the dr to teach her galafrayan although why would he, what need would it serve


She also knows ancient gallafrayan, on the Byzantiums black box she writes in ancient galafrayan not the circular script we usuialy see, why would he teach her both if he did at all
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Old 05-06-2011, 17:34
trade_star
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Maybe because when the place was named, it was named as Demon's Run (as in, this is the place belong to the demons; this is where they run), as opposed to being a part of a bigger poem/story? When it was first named, I wouldn't have thought they would know that at some point in the future a good man would go to war over a baby there.
The poem as given in the episode is actually (ignoring the issues around punctuation) "Demon's run where a good man goes to war".

This gives the line it's two meanings. First, Demon's Run is the place where a good man goes to war, and secondly that Demon's flee where a good man goes to war.

"Where" is less intuitive than "when" for the second meaning but essential for the first, which suggests that the place was independently, if coincidentally, named Demon's Run before the poem/prophecy was written.
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Old 05-06-2011, 17:39
Spence1115
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I love a good facepalm... ok so yes all timelords in there different incarnations are different ppl. BUT, the idea still works
look at how supprised and absolutly fasinatwed he is with the revelation... give me another theory that can answer why reading his own name on his cot reveals rivers identity
No, they're different people. We've seen her birth in the episode, and we know that Hartnell was the first Doctor, so she can't be an earlier Doctor that 11 somehow DOESN'T remember, and she can't be a future Doctor as we've seen her born as a girl, who is human with bits of Time Lord in her DNA.

Different people. Not the same people. At all. The Doctor isn't born to two humans from Earth in his own TARDIS.
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Old 05-06-2011, 17:39
kitthekat
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"Where" is less intuitive than "when" for the second meaning but essential for the first, which suggests that the place was independently, if coincidentally, named Demon's Run before the poem/prophecy was written.
This is what I was trying to get at, but you said it so much more eloquently!
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Old 05-06-2011, 17:42
trade_star
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This is what I was trying to get at, but you said it so much more eloquently!
I thought you put it perfectly well, I just wanted to elaborate on the linguistic side.

I had meant to reference your explanation in mine, but I forgot for which I apologise.
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Old 05-06-2011, 17:47
Tobyak
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No, they're different people. We've seen her birth in the episode, and we know that Hartnell was the first Doctor, so she can't be an earlier Doctor that 11 somehow DOESN'T remember, and she can't be a future Doctor as we've seen her born as a girl, who is human with bits of Time Lord in her DNA.

Different people. Not the same people. At all. The Doctor isn't born to two humans from Earth in his own TARDIS.
Hearnell was the first yes.... WAS.... but has the RTD new who changed cannon. There have been a few breaks from cannon, timelords have 13 regenerations, how many has the master had now for instance, i think its ... 17 Eris roberts was the 14th (established in th dr who special with Paul McGann) then we have 15th judge john deed, and 2 regens of John Simm. if such a huge change can be made, can a change be mae elsewhere. maybe hartnell was only the first male incarnation...... yes its petrol on a flame but you never know
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