I think the one thing I am greatful to Timeboy about was that he didnt leak the whole River being timelordish. That would have really ruined it for me.

Agree - 100%

Some of us enjoy trying to work out puzzles and we end up getting ridiculed - not for any mistakes in our thinking or logic but because others who have simply read a leak "know" we are wrong.

I think that's why I enjoyed it so much when I worked out that Jelly-Jenny was the only "monster" in Rebel Flesh and that Doctor Goo would be a hero and wouldn't leave the monastery - because so many people told me I was wrong simply because a couple of fake "leaks" said he regenerated and kidnapped Amy and Jenny was the Doctor's daughter.

The real problem is that too many people sneer at other people's way of enjoying the series. People who simply enjoy going into detail are "over analysing" - who gets to decide when it becomes "over"? People who read spoilers are "ruining it for themselves" - who gets to decide what effect it had on them? People who just watch and don't spot the clues are "missing something" - who gets to decide that they can't just enjoy the action?

Not picking on anyone in this thread - just using their words as examples - but phrases like "pick apart every little damned thing", "wild mass guessing", "absolutely ridiculous theories" and "wild and wacky theories" are perjorative and completely uncalled for. They all imply that there's some standard - a line that can be crossed - in what is an acceptable way for a person to watch the program or continue their enjoyment of the show when posting on the forum.

Truth is, the people who say such things actually mean - "It's okay to guess - as long as you do it my way and no more or less". One person's "too far" is another persons "not far enough".

Bottom line...

No-one has the right to criticise anyone else for enjoying the show or the forum in their own way as long as they don't break forum rules or actively force leaked plot information onto people which would interfere with the producer's plans for the scripted reveals.

If someone wants to discuss one single sentence in an episode from 1974 in minute detail - that's their business. If others aren't interested in that topic, there are hundreds of other threads - and the option to start as many new ones as they like.

It's bizarre to see so many people attacking the way others interact with this fantasy TV program on this forum. Even more so when you realise that even posting in a Doctor Who forum makes us all weirdo's in some people's eyes. You'd think that people here would be a bit more tolerant and open-minded about other's right to find different levels of involvment with the fantasy.

I may have to marry you

[quote=Brass Drag0n;50594804]It's the wild mass guessing that depresses me - you can read some absolutely ridiculous theories and ideas that people have decided are absolutely 100% correct...

Which then turn out be be about as correct as that prediction that the world was ending on 21 June.[/QUOTE]

I hope not its my birthday and I want my beauty day in the spa

Well put, Minky

And I for one have been enjoying reading your speculations

Actually you're safe. It was supposed to start May 21st, but the math was wrong and now it's October 21st. But then again that means the Mayan calendar is wrong

To be fair though if you post 'wild and whacky' theories on a public forum and ask for opinions on it then you are going to get more than a fair bit of flak. It's expecially annoying when people end their theory post with stuff like 'It's the only theory that makes sense' or 'why else wouyld Moffat put that in the show?'.

I agree with largely most of what you have said but try and see it from a outsider's viewpoint.

I actively avoid spoilers and speculation. That's as much as my way of enjoying the show as you have yours. I only go in the threads I think are appropriate after the episode has been aired, such as the discussion thread, the scoresheet one, or maybe one about the cliffhanger.

Aside from that, I keep out of the rest of them. So imagine what it must seem like when you spend ten minutes on this forum and there is a new thread starting for what it seems like every five minutes. Yesterday was a classic example. And then there was the three River Song threads that started within five minutes of each other one day last week.

When you see that happening, it really does seem like overkill and that the whole forum has gone totally bonkers and it does give the impression people are either overanalysing it and pulling to bits every episode. It really does. I'm not saying for one minute that people shouldn't do that, as you say, it's their right to do so, I'm just saying that what it seems like from an outside point of view and why people are making those sort of comments that you mentioned.

While I'm one to openly admit that I am not enjoying this series as much as I'd like, I do think that largely people have been over speculating and over analysing purely due to the style of writing we have now. I am not digging Moffat at all. I appreciate that the majority are thoroughly enveloped in his imagination, and while his writing is not particularly to my taste, you can't fail to notice the love and passion he has for the show.

I think his arc this year has led to so many questions and as such speculation is bursting! People are keen to try and guess or to look for answers so that to them it makes sense. Or so they can get inkling of why someone did that or why someone said that! I agree that some posts have been bizarre and a "vintage" poster quite rightly said that some people starting threads to discuss the episode because their opinion is considered more important than others, is wrong.

Before this year Doctor Who consisted of mainly stand alone stories with an arc that was tied up in the last episode. Yes there were little hints along the way, but the arc wasn't so important during the run as it is now.

So this is in some way going to get curiosity levels rising when the arc is full throttle and mysterious.

With regards to Rivers' reveal, I personally am disappointed by it because largely to me, it doesn't make sense. It begs zillions of questions that before were unnecessary but need to be asked in order to maintain credibility. But this is my opinion and just because I am not happy with it doesn't mean the reveal was bad. But I shouldn't be ripped apart for not liking it which has been the case on other forums. We all have preferences and as far as Doctor Who is concerned I am enjoying the current series in the same way many enjoyed the specials. I enjoyed all the specials on the other hand. Horses for courses I guess!

It's not that he can;t win, and forgive me because I don't mean for this to come across as an effort to troll...But here's my problem.

Season 5, on the whole, I think we can agree was pretty much 13 episodes of great storytelling. Season 6 for me hasn't been. The only episodes I've really enjoyed, if you include the Christmas special is that and the doctor's wife - which hurts, because I've gotten really quite fond of Moffat's storytelling.

The problem with that, is that Moffat's storytelling is only half of the problem. The Rebel Flesh and The Almost people* were [pi]awful[/i], dull and largely clumsily done, and worse than that, they bored me - and...well...If I'm honest, I expected more from Moffat after he spent so long hyping it up. After all that hype, after all that promise of him "rising so high, and then falling so much further" - he. what? finds out that he's getting a bit of how'syermissus from Amy's daughter? I mean come on, this is the many who single-handedly redeemed what was otherwise a consistently awful tenure under RTD and Tenant with The Empty Child, The Doctor Dances, Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead...And he settles with the big mystery being...Amy's daughter?

I mean....Amy's daughter? Am I seriously meant to believe that over the space of the last couple of years, Moffat developed this storyline from season 4 to run into and intertwine with his assistant? With the rich history of Doctor Who, and how extensive Moffat's knowledge of the series is, he couldn't find away to make the plot more coherent? He couldn't make it seem like he'd put in just an iota of consideration that would have left everyone fulfilled in terms of storytelling? I mean, ok, she's also some kind of significant other to the doctor, but Amy's daughter? Telling us you can simply cook a timelord up by exposing the embryo to the time vortex?

I'm sorry. It may keep the Americans happy, as their television is often predictably dull, but I honestly expect something more profound and less predictable for the British public.

It feels so...Thrown away. It feels like the thought of a storyline was an afterthought, It feels like an episode of Glee, for chrissakes.

*Also, I get irked when people abbreviate episode titles, as I usually don't understand what the hell they're referring to.

Um Moffat didnt write Rebel Flesh and Almost People Matthew Graham.

I'm quite aware that he didn't, but he did have creative input as the head writer and exec producer. In that position, he oversees and approves all scripts, makes changes, adds and subtracts dialogue. I stated The Rebel Flesh and The Almost People bored me, because they lead directly into A Good man goes to war, and were really ineffective as a set up. If anything, had it been me, I would have written a story revolving around the nestene consciousness or the Autons - it certainly would have been more effective. Am I to take your complete disregarding of my other comments as an agreement, by the way?

If it annoys you - move on to another thread. (Edit - just read that back and it sounds harsh - I only meant that there are lots of threads and there will be something you'll enjoy more)

Why should anyone get "flak" for saying "I think that..."? Debating the points they raise or pointing out factual errors is one thing - that's the opinions they are asking for - but making pronouncments about the person themselves is unnecessary. Describing their theory as "wild and whacky" rather than simply saying "I disagree because..." is just offensive - bordering on bullying.



Again - and no disrespect - "over-analysing", "pulling to bits" - says who?

I think you are over-analysing my post!

See what I mean - you posted something that you regard as perfectly reasonable and I've now said you are wrong to do so - not because of what you wrote or how much sense it made but simply because I've drawn an imaginary line and accused you of crossing it. Do you agree that I have the right to decide that? Do you feel that you crossed any line?

Of course you don't.

Do you think that I should respect your judgement and do you regard youself as being quite capable of deciding for yourself what is and isn't acceptable when you aren't actually breaking forum rules?

Of course you do.

That's the point I'm making - that there are too many people pointing fingers and accusing others of spoiling the forum when what they really mean is those other people are not doing it the way they want.

We are all entitled to dislike certain posts or threads but that does not translate as a right to insult the people to like them or dismiss them with derogatory labels.

I accused you of over-analysing my post (I didn't mean it - obviously) and that effectively questions your judgement and personality - I basically said that I'm better than you - that you are too stupid to know what is too much analysing. It's offensive, arbitrary and unnecessary.

As for things like spoilers not being tagged - that's for the mods to deal with. Likewise, when there are multiple threads on a single subject - and I agree that those are undesirable - alter the mods and they'll merge them.

we could always get past it with a meet up so we can have a group hug?

the only problem with that is that when Moffat, originaly wrote Silence in the Library, back in 2007/8 unless he had prior knowledge he would not of known that he would be taking over from RTD, so having a long term character develkopement for River, would not of been easy .

Although I guessed who River, was it certainly wasn't untill this current series before that I simply had no idea but I guess with the names River & Pond, we had the big reveal staring us in the face for some time.

Yes, but then they wouldn't have involved the flesh avatars, which means there'd have been no way of getting that cliffhanger reveal of Amy's doppelganger to tie-in with A Good Man Goes to War. Which was kind of the whole point. Besides, frankly I loved that two parter-far more nerve wracking and effective than just another Auton story, IMO.

[b]
I wasn't criticising your post at all. if you'd read it properly i said i agreed with what you put. What i said was that what it seemed like to watch the forum go crazy from the outside, it wasn't in fact criticising those who did so.

And again I actually said in my post that It seemed
from the outside that the overanalysing and so forth was quite a regular occurrence. Again that wasn't a criticism.

As for the spoiler tags, yes, I have alerted them over the last week. Got no response so don't know why I bothered.

Crossed intentions here - I didn't think you were criticising.

I wasn't defending myself, just following on from your post and showing that anyone can say "You're over-analysing" to basically any post that says anything more than "ABC is a ganger". (You did get that I said "I didn't mean it" about you "over-analysing")

Your post did what those "over-analysing" posts do - you quite reasonably backed up what you said with examples and explained your reasons.

Again - there is no "over-analysing" on the forum - that's just an insulting phrase . There are posts and threads which go into more detail than some members find personally interesting or profitable but that doesn't mean those threads or the people who do enjoy them should be labelled with negative, subjective tags.

My feeling is that life's too short for people to get worked up about some of the things that they do in this forum. We're all intelligent people (otherwise we wouldn't be Doctor Who fans!) but sometimes we seem to lose our perspective and our sense of humour. This should be a fun forum for people to share ideas about DW, keeping in mind that not everyone will necessarily agree with our own point of view.

I'm relatively new to this forum but since I've been here I've been amazed by the brilliance of some posts, but also shocked by the rudeness of others. Examples include typing the one word 'No' as a response to someone's ideas. If you disagree, then say why, don't just type 'No' in a patronising, dismissive way. Similar responses include 'thread fail' or *face palm*, asking someone 'Did you even watch the programme?' or calling someone a troll just because they are going against the agreed consensus.


OK rant over. I'm taking a break from the forum for the summer. Thanks to those posters who've made me think and smile.

It's cool, I see where you're coming from now.

It does seem this series has caused more debate than series 5, for reasons others have stated above. There's more to discuss, I get that. I'm thinking however come second half of the series in the autumn I will spend less time on here as though it's expected that a new series will obviously dominate a forum during it's run, sometimes it's nice to discuss something different. I'm hoping Torchwood will provide that change of emphasis next month and give us a break from all the many Who discussions for a while.....

Not that there's anything wrong with that off course.....

You've made some good points here. At least, I think they're good because I happen to agree with most of them. I generally like Moffat's stories, but I felt really let down by this one. It just feels wrong in so many ways.

Also, I think he's losing his touch. Two of my favorite stories on the short list are The Girl in the Fireplace & Blink, both from him. He has a way of changing the rules whenever it suits him. The weeping angels were his creation and he made it plain that the big danger from them was that they would send you back in time and stranded you there. Then, for The Time of Angels they became ruthless killers, eager to just snap your neck for the fun of it.

BTW, I understand what you mean about American TV, being an American, but just because the people in charge of the studios only want to feed us crap doesn't mean we're happy with the fare.

They snapped bobs neck so they could extract his cortex and use his brain to communicate with the doctor. I don't think he "changed the rules" at all. Just developed them.
Edit: Also the majority of British TV is crap too, thanks to the rise of Simon Cowell.

Very well put and I agree 100%.

The other one that annoys me is slagging threads off in other threads, it just smacks of elitism to me.

Yes I hate that too. All the "I see someone has started a pathetic thread about so and so" just entices me to look over in the said thread and support it!

I'm glad you understand and agree, and I apologise if you felt I was slighting the American people's taste in TV; I should have gone so far as to slight the studios that produce. Sci Fi is one such example where I have a particular gripe.