Any ideas as to why they meet in reverse order?
Misconceptions? #1 River's Timeline
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Originally Posted by MinkytheDog:
“No.
If River and the Doctor are only ever meeting from opposite ends of their individual life spans (or portion of those life spans), then the older she is at any visit, the younger he is and vice versa.
However, it doesn't mean that she literally counts the days backwards - one "meet" doesn't equal one day - or one hour - or one second. Basically she is not moving backwards through time - she merely visits past events in a certain order. She can stay a while and when she does, time passes normally for her in the same direction as it does for everyone. After that, she leaves.
The current "event" has lasted months - during that time, they are going through time side by side and all cause & effect events will occur in the right order.
....”
“No.
If River and the Doctor are only ever meeting from opposite ends of their individual life spans (or portion of those life spans), then the older she is at any visit, the younger he is and vice versa.
However, it doesn't mean that she literally counts the days backwards - one "meet" doesn't equal one day - or one hour - or one second. Basically she is not moving backwards through time - she merely visits past events in a certain order. She can stay a while and when she does, time passes normally for her in the same direction as it does for everyone. After that, she leaves.
The current "event" has lasted months - during that time, they are going through time side by side and all cause & effect events will occur in the right order.
....”
I get that a meeting can last a period of time, however do you believe this meeting was a continuation of the American meeting? I took the view that that meeting had ended when they kissed goodbye. (the first/last kiss)
They then met again at Demon's storm. That should be later for the Doctor, but earlier for River.
I guess we will know if the next time we see River she knows about the Doctors death & the silence. If it's an earlier River, then she won't have done those things yet, and so won't know about them.
in the silence in the library river says "you look so young" but matts smiths much younger than tennant
Yould have thought if the timelines are opposite and that the last time river saw the doctor prior to the silence in the library he was matt smith she would have said tennant looks older.
which is why i think the timelines arent strictly opposite, theyre just jumbled. And that the last meeting prior to the library, river met the doctor in a later generation where hes a much older man.
Yould have thought if the timelines are opposite and that the last time river saw the doctor prior to the silence in the library he was matt smith she would have said tennant looks older.
which is why i think the timelines arent strictly opposite, theyre just jumbled. And that the last meeting prior to the library, river met the doctor in a later generation where hes a much older man.
Originally Posted by Bumtiddlywinks:
“in the silence in the library river says "you look so young" but matts smiths much younger than tennant
Yould have thought if the timelines are opposite and that the last time river saw the doctor prior to the silence in the library he was matt smith she would have said tennant looks older.
which is why i think the timelines arent strictly opposite, theyre just jumbled. And that the last meeting prior to the library, river met the doctor in a later generation where hes a much older man.”
“in the silence in the library river says "you look so young" but matts smiths much younger than tennant
Yould have thought if the timelines are opposite and that the last time river saw the doctor prior to the silence in the library he was matt smith she would have said tennant looks older.
which is why i think the timelines arent strictly opposite, theyre just jumbled. And that the last meeting prior to the library, river met the doctor in a later generation where hes a much older man.”
She mentioned later about his eyes, I think she judges his age by his eyes and what's behind them.
Originally Posted by BevS97:
“http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-conte...11/06/song.jpg
there was a typo in it.”
“http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-conte...11/06/song.jpg
there was a typo in it.”
Also doesn't work for me.
Edit - just deleted the end portion and found it myself, thanks.
Originally Posted by BevS97:
“I get that a meeting can last a period of time, however do you believe this meeting was a continuation of the American meeting? I took the view that that meeting had ended when they kissed goodbye. (the first/last kiss)
They then met again at Demon's storm. That should be later for the Doctor, but earlier for River.
I guess we will know if the next time we see River she knows about the Doctors death & the silence. If it's an earlier River, then she won't have done those things yet, and so won't know about them.”
“I get that a meeting can last a period of time, however do you believe this meeting was a continuation of the American meeting? I took the view that that meeting had ended when they kissed goodbye. (the first/last kiss)
They then met again at Demon's storm. That should be later for the Doctor, but earlier for River.
I guess we will know if the next time we see River she knows about the Doctors death & the silence. If it's an earlier River, then she won't have done those things yet, and so won't know about them.”
Originally Posted by MinkytheDog:
“Same event - same "meet".”
“Same event - same "meet".”
Bev's right. The River we've just seen is an earlier version than in the American two-parter. The one that was at the end of the episode was an earlier River than the one at the beginning, too.
Originally Posted by MinkytheDog:
“No.
If River and the Doctor are only ever meeting from opposite ends of their individual life spans (or portion of those life spans), then the older she is at any visit, the younger he is and vice versa.
However, it doesn't mean that she literally counts the days backwards - one "meet" doesn't equal one day - or one hour - or one second. Basically she is not moving backwards through time - she merely visits past events in a certain order. She can stay a while and when she does, time passes normally for her in the same direction as it does for everyone. After that, she leaves.
The current "event" has lasted months - during that time, they are going through time side by side and all cause & effect events will occur in the right order.
It means that each time we see River on a completely new meet (the ones she says are coming - "next time we meet") that's something she actually did when she was younger. She hasn't become younger - it's just something she'd already done in her own past.
Eventually, the River that attends those "meets" will have been when she was so much younger that she will look it - that's why I say they don't need her to regenerate to recast the role. That younger River will also know less about the Doctor's future and he will know more about hers until finally, their roles will be completely reversed and he'll be the one who knows her entire life history and she'll know nothing about his.”
“No.
If River and the Doctor are only ever meeting from opposite ends of their individual life spans (or portion of those life spans), then the older she is at any visit, the younger he is and vice versa.
However, it doesn't mean that she literally counts the days backwards - one "meet" doesn't equal one day - or one hour - or one second. Basically she is not moving backwards through time - she merely visits past events in a certain order. She can stay a while and when she does, time passes normally for her in the same direction as it does for everyone. After that, she leaves.
The current "event" has lasted months - during that time, they are going through time side by side and all cause & effect events will occur in the right order.
It means that each time we see River on a completely new meet (the ones she says are coming - "next time we meet") that's something she actually did when she was younger. She hasn't become younger - it's just something she'd already done in her own past.
Eventually, the River that attends those "meets" will have been when she was so much younger that she will look it - that's why I say they don't need her to regenerate to recast the role. That younger River will also know less about the Doctor's future and he will know more about hers until finally, their roles will be completely reversed and he'll be the one who knows her entire life history and she'll know nothing about his.”
eh?
why do you say "no" ?
if she's younger each time they meet then the River in this latest episode is younger than the one in TIA therefore this River hasn't seen him get killed yet .
Originally Posted by JCRendle:
“
I think this diagram from MrPowered sums it up beautifully:- Doctor/River timeline's”
“
I think this diagram from MrPowered sums it up beautifully:- Doctor/River timeline's”
Hehe when we first met River I drew in pencil something similar on my table till it made sense.
Originally Posted by JCRendle:
“For River, which came first byzantium or Pandorica”
“For River, which came first byzantium or Pandorica”
Byzantium. Doesn't she say something along the lines of 'the next time we meet will be when the Pandorica opens' and the Doctor says something about 'the Pandorica, it's a fairy tale' ?
Originally Posted by JCRendle:
“I think that means she's already lived it.
This is how I see her Time Line so far”
“I think that means she's already lived it.
This is how I see her Time Line so far”
It's not that simple, unfortunately. At the beginning of AGMGTW, the River we saw was an older River than the one who actually tells her parents who she is. There are other inconsitencies, but I don't have them all to hand rigth now.
Originally Posted by Virgil Tracy:
“eh?
why do you say "no" ?
if she's younger each time they meet then the River in this latest episode is younger than the one in TIA therefore this River hasn't seen him get killed yet .”
“eh?
why do you say "no" ?
if she's younger each time they meet then the River in this latest episode is younger than the one in TIA therefore this River hasn't seen him get killed yet .”
Because the post was in reply to a direct question
"so the River we saw in the latest episode doesn't know about the doc getting killed in america ?
right ?"
"No" was the answer and the rest was the explanation as to why not.
She is not "younger each time they meet" - it doesn't work like that.
If you wrote the days of River's life out on a strip of paper and laid that alongside those same dates in the Doctor's life, they would run side by side in the right order. Now mark off individual adventure on the Doctor's lifeline - those could last a day or they last a year. On River's lifeline, those same adventures will be there and will last the same amount of time but they won't start and end on the same dates as they did for the Doctor. She could spend January with him at his house (according to his diary) but her diary would show her as being away from home in December. She would be at his house for four weeks and she'd be away from her house for four weeks - just different weeks.
Now imagaine that when she arrives at his house in January, she see his mate Rory for the frst time. She doesn't forget him hen she wakes up the next day because he has now been added to her memory. When she goes back to her own time, she would remember Rory six months later - in June the following year - just like anyone would.
If the Doctor got another month long visit from River in March - according to his calendar - that River would be away from her home in October according to her diary. If Rory walked in, she wouldn't know him - because she hasn't met him yet in her lifetime - she doesn't meet him until December.
Apply that to the order of events in DW....
She didn't recognise Rory at Stonehenge. Since then, she has recognised him at Utah and at Demons Run. That has to mean that she is still in her "December". If her starting point to arrive at Demons Run pre-dated her previous meetings, she would not have recognised him immediately.
The key is to drop any notion of anything about time going backwards - it isn't. What she is doing is more like reading a book one chapter at a time - but starting at the last chapter. For each chapter, she reads through it starting at the first line and ending at the last - the chapter itself is read completely normally. It's just that she reads chapter 8 before reading chapter 7. What she isn't doing is reading the book starting at the last word and reading them all in reverse - "after ever happily" and so on - or worse still, the last letter and working backwards "retfa reve lyippah".
Originally Posted by MinkytheDog:
“Because the post was in reply to a direct question
"so the River we saw in the latest episode doesn't know about the doc getting killed in america ?
right ?"
"No" was the answer and the rest was the explanation as to why not.
She is not "younger each time they meet" - it doesn't work like that.
If you wrote the days of River's life out on a strip of paper and laid that alongside those same dates in the Doctor's life, they would run side by side in the right order. Now mark off individual adventure on the Doctor's lifeline - those could last a day or they last a year. On River's lifeline, those same adventures will be there and will last the same amount of time but they won't start and end on the same dates as they did for the Doctor. She could spend January with him at his house (according to his diary) but her diary would show her as being away from home in December. She would be at his house for four weeks and she'd be away from her house for four weeks - just different weeks.
Now imagaine that when she arrives at his house in January, she see his mate Rory for the frst time. She doesn't forget him hen she wakes up the next day because he has now been added to her memory. When she goes back to her own time, she would remember Rory six months later - in June the following year - just like anyone would.
If the Doctor got another month long visit from River in March - according to his calendar - that River would be away from her home in October according to her diary. If Rory walked in, she wouldn't know him - because she hasn't met him yet in her lifetime - she doesn't meet him until December.
Apply that to the order of events in DW....
She didn't recognise Rory at Stonehenge. Since then, she has recognised him at Utah and at Demons Run. That has to mean that she is still in her "December". If her starting point to arrive at Demons Run pre-dated her previous meetings, she would not have recognised him immediately.
The key is to drop any notion of anything about time going backwards - it isn't. What she is doing is more like reading a book one chapter at a time - but starting at the last chapter. For each chapter, she reads through it starting at the first line and ending at the last - the chapter itself is read completely normally. It's just that she reads chapter 8 before reading chapter 7. What she isn't doing is reading the book starting at the last word and reading them all in reverse - "after ever happily" and so on - or worse still, the last letter and working backwards "retfa reve lyippah".”
“Because the post was in reply to a direct question
"so the River we saw in the latest episode doesn't know about the doc getting killed in america ?
right ?"
"No" was the answer and the rest was the explanation as to why not.
She is not "younger each time they meet" - it doesn't work like that.
If you wrote the days of River's life out on a strip of paper and laid that alongside those same dates in the Doctor's life, they would run side by side in the right order. Now mark off individual adventure on the Doctor's lifeline - those could last a day or they last a year. On River's lifeline, those same adventures will be there and will last the same amount of time but they won't start and end on the same dates as they did for the Doctor. She could spend January with him at his house (according to his diary) but her diary would show her as being away from home in December. She would be at his house for four weeks and she'd be away from her house for four weeks - just different weeks.
Now imagaine that when she arrives at his house in January, she see his mate Rory for the frst time. She doesn't forget him hen she wakes up the next day because he has now been added to her memory. When she goes back to her own time, she would remember Rory six months later - in June the following year - just like anyone would.
If the Doctor got another month long visit from River in March - according to his calendar - that River would be away from her home in October according to her diary. If Rory walked in, she wouldn't know him - because she hasn't met him yet in her lifetime - she doesn't meet him until December.
Apply that to the order of events in DW....
She didn't recognise Rory at Stonehenge. Since then, she has recognised him at Utah and at Demons Run. That has to mean that she is still in her "December". If her starting point to arrive at Demons Run pre-dated her previous meetings, she would not have recognised him immediately.
The key is to drop any notion of anything about time going backwards - it isn't. What she is doing is more like reading a book one chapter at a time - but starting at the last chapter. For each chapter, she reads through it starting at the first line and ending at the last - the chapter itself is read completely normally. It's just that she reads chapter 8 before reading chapter 7. What she isn't doing is reading the book starting at the last word and reading them all in reverse - "after ever happily" and so on - or worse still, the last letter and working backwards "retfa reve lyippah".”
Moff has stated that she lied - she did know who he was, but at that point couldn't let on due to 'Spoilers!' And if you think about it, her not knowing who he is in any part of her adult life is ridiculous -- he's her father, after all!
She will only divulge information pertinent to the particular meeting, so we can't trust any of her non-recognising Amy or Rory, as of course she knows who they are.
Other than 'Silence in the Library' aren't we seeing River Song's life events in chronological order?
I don't see what the problem is. Her life moves from her birth to the events in SITL. Her adventures with the Doctor occur in chronological order in her subjective timeline, but *may* appear out of order to the Doctor and his companions, since he is a time traveller. Hence the need to synchronise diaries.
[EDIT]Oooh, just made an error with the episode title, but wouldn't it have been freaky if it was "The Silence in the Library'? I'm sure it's not the first time someone has suggested this.
I don't see what the problem is. Her life moves from her birth to the events in SITL. Her adventures with the Doctor occur in chronological order in her subjective timeline, but *may* appear out of order to the Doctor and his companions, since he is a time traveller. Hence the need to synchronise diaries.
[EDIT]Oooh, just made an error with the episode title, but wouldn't it have been freaky if it was "The Silence in the Library'? I'm sure it's not the first time someone has suggested this.
Originally Posted by poziflip:
“Other than 'Silence in the Library' aren't we seeing River Song's life events in chronological order?
I don't see what the problem is. Her life moves from her birth to the events in SITL. Her adventures with the Doctor occur in chronological order in her subjective timeline, but *may* appear out of order to the Doctor and his companions, since he is a time traveller. Hence the need to synchronise diaries.
[EDIT]Oooh, just made an error with the episode title, but wouldn't it have been freaky if it was "The Silence in the Library'? I'm sure it's not the first time someone has suggested this.”
“Other than 'Silence in the Library' aren't we seeing River Song's life events in chronological order?
I don't see what the problem is. Her life moves from her birth to the events in SITL. Her adventures with the Doctor occur in chronological order in her subjective timeline, but *may* appear out of order to the Doctor and his companions, since he is a time traveller. Hence the need to synchronise diaries.
[EDIT]Oooh, just made an error with the episode title, but wouldn't it have been freaky if it was "The Silence in the Library'? I'm sure it's not the first time someone has suggested this.”
No. Sometimes she doesn't even appear in the correct chronological order during a single episode.
It is mostly reverse chronological order. In general reverse, but with contradictions running through.
Originally Posted by sebbie3000:
“Moff has stated that she lied - she did know who he was, but at that point couldn't let on due to 'Spoilers!' And if you think about it, her not knowing who he is in any part of her adult life is ridiculous -- he's her father, after all!
She will only divulge information pertinent to the particular meeting, so we can't trust any of her non-recognising Amy or Rory, as of course she knows who they are.”
“Moff has stated that she lied - she did know who he was, but at that point couldn't let on due to 'Spoilers!' And if you think about it, her not knowing who he is in any part of her adult life is ridiculous -- he's her father, after all!
She will only divulge information pertinent to the particular meeting, so we can't trust any of her non-recognising Amy or Rory, as of course she knows who they are.”
Moff says a lot of things (sometimes to cover-up for his mistakes)
When she found the photo in Amy's house, she said "Doctor.... that Centurian..." clearly surprised. At the time, it looked like she meant - "That centurian is someone Amy should know" - in hindsight, it looks more like "That centurian - he must be my father". Even so, it looks a lot more like she didn't realise he was Rory Williams until htat point. From then on, she has been completely at ease with Rory - except for his out-of-synch visit to Stormcage which, again, threw her.
That's without getting into the "Rory never existed" thing.
As for recognising her father...
If River is the little girl and has been away from her parents for 10+ years, she may never have seen her young father since she was too young to remember. It's possible that Melody's first memory of her father is of a fat, bald bloke - with one leg and a bear. People change and we might not recognise our own parents seeing them in person 50 years into our own past.
Aside from that, we don't yet know what happened to her parents - it's possible that Rory wasn't around when she grew up - like Rose's father.
It might help if anyone who thinks that the River at Demons Run is younger than the one in Utah could say why they think that. As far as I can see, there's no reason it needs to be that way and a number of reasons why it shouldn't - not least the fact that we are half-way through a series and it's going to get incredibly complicated if River has no memory of anything that has happened since the library (which she can't if she's younger before she sets off).
They'll need to explain why River would look at a list of events that heppened in her life and decide...
I'm going to go to Demons Run, then I'm going to go to and spend a few months in Utah - and have my memory wiped a few times whilst trying to rescue my mother, then I'm going to go to Byzantium etc - why visit events in that particular order - bearing in mind that anything she does in those later visits (in her time line) could alter events that she visited previously but she would never know it had happened. Surely, she'd need the events from Utah to her birth to play out correctly - and that means following them through in the right order. Otherwise, what's the point of her being there?
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