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Never thought I would say this but last night Susan was right!


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Old 16-06-2011, 16:32
meglosmurmurs
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I'm afraid there are loads like them in the real world. Its not just this task though that Susan has been whining, she's been doing it in every task she was in the losing team . Time for her to realise the flaw is with her.
So that's twice then.
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Old 16-06-2011, 16:40
Rutakateki
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I'm a fan of Susan.

One thing that I thought was pretty smart last night was her reading Nick's body language when the team were coming up with the name of the magazine. She sussed that he was unhappy with some of the suggestions, and bowed out, while Glenn stood there oblivious, shouting "OLD TROUT! OLD SOAK! OLD BOOT!" at the top of his voice.

I don't know how old Nick is*, but it seemed pretty obvious he found it distasteful- possibly even mildly offensive. Perhaps, behind the scenes, this was a contributory factor in the firing of the Glengineer? (I can do crap puns too!)

Anyway, my point is that I think she's sensitive to others' feelings, and this is a good trait in business- to me it seems more important than just forcing your point of view across.


*edit- just checked with wikipedia- Nick is 67 and looking good on it!
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Old 16-06-2011, 16:42
Dunkerpup
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I didnt realise Susan Ma's mum posted on these forums ......
Do you mean Susan's Ma? Titter.
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Old 16-06-2011, 17:04
ESPIONdansant
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Three of the team were very keen on the name. There was no point in Susan fighting a futile rearguard action.

I thought her instincts were sound. She is whiny but I do think she has a 'feel' for what's going on. She's adaptable.
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Old 16-06-2011, 17:43
soulmate61
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Three of the team were very keen on the name. There was no point in Susan fighting a futile rearguard action.
I was not paying attention. Who first proposed HIP Replacement as a title? Everyone else on the team except Susan was in favour?

I noticed that Susan was not shy to stick up for herself in any monologue facing the camera aside, nor was she intimidated once given the protection of LS in the boardroom. It's just that in any confrontation with colleague(s) towering above her in size and age she did not have the fluency or the steel to stand her ground, or even to lead the pack. No surprise then that Susan's success to date was mainly as a sole trader, not as a lawyer or boardroom combatant. How can she make her mark in LS free-for-alls if she cannot make herself heard? Ah, I forget, this year's prize is not about joining the corporate pool, it's about individual enterprise given £250K capital, so a loner COULD do it.
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Old 16-06-2011, 17:49
Shyguy1983
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Zoe first proposed Hip Replacement, with Jim pushing it through. Zoe also had an ironic take on the title which the magazine should play up to but Jim seemed to turn it into a more conventional style. Glenn seemed happy to go with the consensus while Susan did voice her concerns.
I think Susan was right in pointing out the name was wrong, but from the edit we couldn't see whether she was making any alternative suggestions. She did seem to be hit back a bit when the focus group rubbished a lot of more converntional obvious and less risky titles.
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Old 16-06-2011, 18:22
Paace
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I was not paying attention. Who first proposed HIP Replacement as a title? Everyone else on the team except Susan was in favour?

I noticed that Susan was not shy to stick up for herself in any monologue facing the camera aside, nor was she intimidated once given the protection of LS in the boardroom. It's just that in any confrontation with colleague(s) towering above her in size and age she did not have the fluency or the steel to stand her ground, or even to lead the pack. No surprise then that Susan's success to date was mainly as a sole trader, not as a lawyer or boardroom combatant. How can she make her mark in LS free-for-alls if she cannot make herself heard? Ah, I forget, this year's prize is not about joining the corporate pool, it's about individual enterprise given £250K capital, so a loner COULD do it.
Yes, I was thinking the same when she was going on in the BR about running her own company while Glenn and Jim haven't.
I think Susan will be ok running her own company with herself as boss, then others will have to show her respect and go with her decision. Otherwise she will flounder as part of a working team to be heard and for others to go with her ideas.

We have had similar situations in the past where candidates, usually women fail to get their points across and be taken on board by others. Whether this is down to personality or lack of skill in this area or a combination of both, I'm not sure.
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Old 16-06-2011, 18:28
soulmate61
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Some people short on testosterone simply do not have an appetite for toe-to-toe eyeball-to-eyeball confrontations, which is no discredit to them in any way whatsoever. But they would not be best suited for a freestyle wrestling match.

Now Katie Hopkins.......
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Old 16-06-2011, 18:35
Jepson
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Otherwise she will flounder as part of a working team to be heard and for others to go with her ideas.
That really isn't true.

In the real world you are usually working in a management hierarchy rather than the somewhat artificial peer group that you face in the apprentice.

Quiet and non-confrontational managers are usually better than the loud brash types and a formal management structure ensures that their ideas are listened to and used.
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Old 16-06-2011, 18:54
Paace
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That really isn't true.

In the real world you are usually working in a management hierarchy rather than the somewhat artificial peer group that you face in the apprentice.

Quiet and non-confrontational managers are usually better than the loud brash types and a formal management structure ensures that their ideas are listened to and used.
It may be true in your world but not in my world. Personality plays a major part in how you influence people. I'm afraid people like Susan and Ellie get ignored.
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Old 16-06-2011, 19:36
sveknu
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Susan was also against targeting the 60+ market, but this was described as a wise decison by Sugar and at least one of the people they pitched to.
It's easy to say afterwards that you were right, when you disagree on most of the decisions the team makes.
Also, her objection to the name was very weak. At first she said she didn't like it, but when Jim asked every team member specifically, she said she wasn't againt it. The other team members were right when they said she barely voiced her opinion on that particular issue.
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Old 17-06-2011, 01:38
DavetheScot
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She objected to the name, she was right to do so.

She suggested a much better name something like 'Young at heart' that would have been more appropriate.

She was right about the photo for the front cover being the wrong one. The whole idea was to portray a more lively over 60 year old, and they went the completely wrong way about it.

There are loads of other suggestions she made but at the top of my head right now I can't remember all of them.
She really needs to get some balls about her because in the board room she gave as good as she got, why doesn't she do it when on tasks!?

For once I agree Susan did a good job and Jim was terrible. He went about everything the wrong way. The market was right, but was poorly executed and Susan knew it.
Actually I don't agree that Susan speaks out better in the boardroom than on the task. She gave her opinion a lot on the task; she was very clear that she didn't think going for a magazine aimed at over-60s was a good idea because they weren't in tune with the target market, that she didn't like the name and that she thought they should be prepared to negotiate with the advertisers on price. In the boardroom, she resorted mainly to "so unfair" (a phrase she really needs to drop; even if it's true, it can't come over as anything other than whiny) and protesting that she was being picked on for her youth (again, probably true, but too easy for Jim to present this as her using her youth as an excuse).
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Old 17-06-2011, 01:47
DavetheScot
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You did not need to be Einstein to realize that Hip Replacement was a duff idea. 99.99% of the population could tell you that. Susan was awful with the focus group and ineffectual in the photo shoot. Others were worse, but she was a very low rent Cassandra.
In what way was Susan awful with the focus group? Surely the point of a focus group is that you try out your ideas on them. If they don't like the ideas, that's only a failure if you don't listen to what they said and learn from it. To me, Susan did seem to learn from it; so did Glenn, in fact, though I think he took the wrong lesson (the focus group suggested that they didn't like twee titles, but preferred something like the Zimmer, that didn't try to skirt round their age. I think Glenn read this as a preference for the in-your-face, one might even say crass!)

As for the photo-shoot, Susan seemed to me to throw herself into it with her typical gusto and enthusiasm. They got a good range of photographs, and it wasn't her fault if the one selected wasn't ideal.
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Old 17-06-2011, 01:49
DavetheScot
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But in last weeks task she didn't even know why she herself wanted to pay for the desks, never mind explain it to her two teammates.
No, and this does seem to be a problem she has sometimes (eg her inability to explain her idea on the apps task). It wasn't a fault that she showed on this task though.
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Old 17-06-2011, 01:55
DavetheScot
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Also, her objection to the name was very weak. At first she said she didn't like it, but when Jim asked every team member specifically, she said she wasn't againt it. The other team members were right when they said she barely voiced her opinion on that particular issue.
Untrue. She was very clear that she disliked it. When Jim asked "Is that a yes from you, Susan" she said that it wasn't a yes, but that she'd go along with it. No-one can say honestly that she didn't make her dislike of it plain.
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Old 17-06-2011, 02:11
sveknu
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Untrue. She was very clear that she disliked it. When Jim asked "Is that a yes from you, Susan" she said that it wasn't a yes, but that she'd go along with it. No-one can say honestly that she didn't make her dislike of it plain.
Saying that you are happy to support something and that it's no problem at all isn't exactly what I would call a strong objection. You can't expect to influence other people like that.
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Old 17-06-2011, 02:31
anactoria
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Saying that you are happy to support something and that it's no problem at all isn't exactly what I would call a strong objection. You can't expect to influence other people like that.
I imagine that Susan has watched previous series, and seen other contestants get castigated for not supporting a product after the PM has made a decision. Susan might have gone too far the other way, but this is a very fine line to tread, and she was probably (rightly) concerned that further criticism would lead to her being branded 'whiny' in the boardroom.
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Old 17-06-2011, 04:56
DavetheScot
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Saying that you are happy to support something and that it's no problem at all isn't exactly what I would call a strong objection. You can't expect to influence other people like that.
I'd rather she hadn't said it, as it gives people a stick to hit her with, but as anactoria suggests, I think she may have been concerned not to come across as negative. Be that as it may, she did make it very clear that she didn't agree with the title.
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Old 17-06-2011, 22:08
brangdon
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Be that as it may, she did make it very clear that she didn't agree with the title.
Part of the problem was that she was at the other end of the phone, and Glenn was holding it. Jim may not have heard all she said, and he certainly couldn't see her body language. Glenn was clear on her position and supported her in the boardroom; it was the two who weren't present who didn't.
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Old 18-06-2011, 05:09
DavetheScot
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Part of the problem was that she was at the other end of the phone, and Glenn was holding it. Jim may not have heard all she said, and he certainly couldn't see her body language. Glenn was clear on her position and supported her in the boardroom; it was the two who weren't present who didn't.
I don't recall Glenn supporting her on this in the boardroom. Jim had specifically asked "is that a yes, Susan?"; it's hard to believe he wasn't listening specifically for her reply.

Sorry; I'm unconvinced.
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Old 18-06-2011, 20:57
brangdon
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When Susan first speaks against the name, she says something about it being a sensitive topic, and Glenn disagrees. It's not at all clear whether Jim hears that conversation or is aware that Susan remains unpersuaded. It's obvious to us from her facial expression and body language, but wouldn't be over the phone.

When Jim asks her, "Was that an Aye?", he certainly hears her reply, "No, but I'm happy to support it, no problem at all", but she was saying she'd support it, so... It's even possible he thought her "no" was answering his question, ie denying that she had said "Aye", and that she was actually abstaining. Mostly, though, I think it's fair that what Jim took away from that conversation was that everyone supported the name. No-one thought it was a task-losing mistake, not even Susan.

In the boardroom Glenn says, "She did say she didn't agree with it, but there was no real strength behind it." (It's around 43:30 on iPlayer.) I'm counting that as support, in that he confirms she was against it. The other two say they didn't her any objections from her.

With Glenn's confirmation (and later Nick's), it's clear that she is being truthful, so it's important for her.
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