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I sort of understand Natasha's approach to the task! |
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#26 |
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Join Date: Jul 2003
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No, he didn't. For example, if Jim had reinvested in umbrellas earlier, he'd have had a chance to sell them and they'd have made more money than whatever it was he was selling when he ran out of umbrellas. Reinvesting was the way to win. The only reason that's not apparent is that neither team did it.
We also don't know how well they read the market or if anyone (but Susan) targetted the sale with the biggest mark ups. We also have a task where Melody and Susan went off and found their own goods, and Helen and Melody looked for a better business plan because they thought market trading was too small fry . We also had suppliers who were closed when in theory they were supposed to be doing their reinvesting. it all looks a bit of a mess where a task became far more complex than Lord Sugar or the task designers allowed for. |
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#27 |
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May be we do not know all the rules. I thought I heard Jim saying "I would rather try and fail than get fined by Lord Sugar" I was too tired and I may have misheard him. Does anyone remember what he said?
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#28 |
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May be we do not know all the rules. I thought I heard Jim saying "I would rather try and fail than get fined by Lord Sugar" I was too tired and I may have misheard him. Does anyone remember what he said?
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#29 |
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He does say that or something very similar. I agree it makes no sense as his Lordship had told them himself that stock and money would both be counted. So what fines is Jim talking about?
.It has always been the case that some of the rules that make the tasks harder for the candidates are not explained explicitly for the viewers, e.g. the no internet rule. In this task, Melody seemed very keen to reinvest as soon as they had enough cash even though it meant that at some point during the task no member of her team was selling! The same goes for Jim ... although it was very late in the day (Natasha's fault) and it was clear that staying where he was, he would have more chance generating profit selling the little stock he already had, he still insisted in turning his cash into stock knowing that he had very little time to sell the new stock. All this makes me suspect that we are not being told all the rules. |
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#30 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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No, he didn't. For example, if Jim had reinvested in umbrellas earlier, he'd have had a chance to sell them and they'd have made more money than whatever it was he was selling when he ran out of umbrellas. Reinvesting was the way to win. The only reason that's not apparent is that neither team did it.
Did you not notice that Jim carried on selling until he was out of goods and then went to replenish stock? Did you, further, not notice that it took him exactly as long to get the goods and return to his pitch as the amount of selling time he had left? Had he restocked earlier he would simply have moved the hiatus in his selling from just before six to some time in the afternoon. And Shepherd's Bush Market is much busier mid afternoon than wherever he ended up after restocking so his sales would probably have been reduced and they could easily have lost the task. Sugar completely cocked up the design of the task if he wanted emphasis on restocking. He should have given them a much smaller initial stock and found a way to reduce the loss of selling time involved in restocking. |
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#31 |
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Or had the task last a longer time, if say this task had been over a whole week then the restocking issue would have been more critical, with only two days then you could do what they did and restock just once without running out.
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#32 |
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blimey - how many people on this thread don't have a grip on the fact that the task wasn't about 'profit' but total assets
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#33 |
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blimey - how many people on this thread don't have a grip on the fact that the task wasn't about 'profit' but total assets
The team that made the most profit won! (That's what people - including Sugar - don't seem to have grasped.) He told them that it was about one thing but the task design and scoring made it about something else. Naturally, the teams concentrated on maximising the number that would get them the win. Then, when Sugar realised that the task hadn't accomplished what he wanted it to accomplish, instead of taking responsibility for his own mistakes, the went into a mega-strop and ranted at the candidates for doing just what you'd expect them to do. |
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#34 |
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blimey - how many people on this thread don't have a grip on the fact that the task wasn't about 'profit' but total assets
So buying more stock with cash will have no effect on the performance. However, it will decrease the time to sell which can help increase assets. |
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#35 |
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blimey - how many people on this thread don't have a grip on the fact that the task wasn't about 'profit' but total assets
The whole task smacked of the Only Fools and Horses episode "Healthy Competition" right down to the dogs and Rodney reinvesting in more lawnmower engines from Alfie Flowers. All it needed was for Tom to be chased by a pack of real dogs and a policeman. I think the reinvestment bit was dreamt up to try and give the task more credibility from a real business perspective, otherwise it was just Del Boy style barrow/suitcase boying. Unfortunately the logic was as screwed up as superhero pantsman and his unfortunate habit of wearing his pants outside his trousers to show kids the error of following his example. It would take more skill to get just the right amount of stock for the second day from a careful analysis of what happened on the first, but then that would have made it much like the beauty task. |
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#36 |
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blimey - how many people on this thread don't have a grip on the fact that the task wasn't about 'profit' but total assets
Sugar wanted some people out. He heard the figure that they had only reinvested £20 and thought that was all. He assumed they ought to have bought and sold more for no reason at all.He's then got the wrong team winning for what he thinks are the wrong reasons , so he over-reacts. He fined them for not doing something that was a fine judgement, and might have reduced their sales if they had done it. Essentially, he thought the task was about something its design didn't support and he failed to realise that winning the task required a different strategy that just maximised the day two bottom line, not one for starting a long term business. |
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#37 |
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Only if you believe the spin on the show and the arguments offered by Lord Sugar. But they make no logical sense in this case.
Sugar wanted some people out. He heard the figure that they had only reinvested £20 and thought that was all. He assumed they ought to have bought and sold more for no reason at all.He's then got the wrong team winning for what he thinks are the wrong reasons , so he over-reacts. He fined them for not doing something that was a fine judgement, and might have reduced their sales if they had done it. Essentially, he thought the task was about something its design didn't support and he failed to realise that winning the task required a different strategy that just maximised the day two bottom line, not one for starting a long term business. It looked as if the red mist had descended and he'd stopped receiving data in his rush to issue some self righteous condemnation. |
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#38 |
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You've missed the subtlety, the task was indeed about total assets, i.e. purchase price of stock + cash, however that isn't the same as saleable value of stock + cash, and the way to "amplify" the value of the stock is to sell it, and then you have the largest total assets. Buying stock takes time, time that somebody could have been selling. It would be perfectly reasonable to get to the wholesaler early in the morning (hence why they open so early, and shut early, as Helen found out) and get the stock for the day, which is the credible strategy Natasha followed.
The whole task smacked of the Only Fools and Horses episode "Healthy Competition" right down to the dogs and Rodney reinvesting in more lawnmower engines from Alfie Flowers. All it needed was for Tom to be chased by a pack of real dogs and a policeman. I think the reinvestment bit was dreamt up to try and give the task more credibility from a real business perspective, otherwise it was just Del Boy style barrow/suitcase boying. Unfortunately the logic was as screwed up as superhero pantsman and his unfortunate habit of wearing his pants outside his trousers to show kids the error of following his example. It would take more skill to get just the right amount of stock for the second day from a careful analysis of what happened on the first, but then that would have made it much like the beauty task. Jim and Tom seemed to get the idea of his task, but Jim seems to have been following rules no one else understood with his talk about fines. Tom just sold and followed the Sugar script - but its not clear that his ideas would have brought in more money than Melodys - or Helens, if Helens had worked out. |
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#39 |
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Had he restocked earlier he would simply have moved the hiatus in his selling from just before six to some time in the afternoon.
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It's also not clear if he was actually hearing Natasha when she said she had reinvested on the previous day.
It looked as if the red mist had descended and he'd stopped receiving data in his rush to issue some self righteous condemnation. |
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#40 |
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Join Date: Sep 2003
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You've missed the subtlety, the task was indeed about total assets, i.e. purchase price of stock + cash, however that isn't the same as saleable value of stock + cash, and the way to "amplify" the value of the stock is to sell it, and then you have the largest total assets. Buying stock takes time, time that somebody could have been selling. It would be perfectly reasonable to get to the wholesaler early in the morning (hence why they open so early, and shut early, as Helen found out) and get the stock for the day, which is the credible strategy Natasha followed.
The whole task smacked of the Only Fools and Horses episode "Healthy Competition" right down to the dogs and Rodney reinvesting in more lawnmower engines from Alfie Flowers. All it needed was for Tom to be chased by a pack of real dogs and a policeman. I think the reinvestment bit was dreamt up to try and give the task more credibility from a real business perspective, otherwise it was just Del Boy style barrow/suitcase boying. Unfortunately the logic was as screwed up as superhero pantsman and his unfortunate habit of wearing his pants outside his trousers to show kids the error of following his example. It would take more skill to get just the right amount of stock for the second day from a careful analysis of what happened on the first, but then that would have made it much like the beauty task. |
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#41 |
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Quite. He'd have the same amount of time available for selling, and he'd have more profitable lines to sell. Can't you see why that would have been a win?
Had he restocked earlier he would have lost selling time when the market is at its busiest and replaced it at a time when it's dead. And yet that's what Sugar wanted him to do. That's why Sugar cocked it up. He didn't realise that the whole balance of the task was wrong for what he wanted to induce the candidates to do. Quote:
Oh, come on.
"Oh come on" is not a part of any logical argument. Quote:
You think he doesn't know the figures before he goes into the boardroom?
We can only go on what is presented to us. That is what is presented. He didn't seem to be aware of the previous days restocking and just kept talking over Natasha when she tried to point it out.Either he was suffering from the red mist or he was giving a very good impression of suffering from it.
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#42 |
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the only way the task makes any sense is if the reinvested stock they bought with the profits was counted at the retail price , ie if jims umbrellas were bought for 1 pound and sold for 5 pound if he had bought 100 of them in the middle of the second day it would not have mattered if he had sold them they would still have been worth 500 pounds.
if this is the way it was supposed to be counted this is why LAs got so cross that very little reinvestment took place |
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#43 |
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the only way the task makes any sense is if the reinvested stock they bought with the profits was counted at the retail price , ie if jims umbrellas were bought for 1 pound and sold for 5 pound if he had bought 100 of them in the middle of the second day it would not have mattered if he had sold them they would still have been worth 500 pounds.
if this is the way it was supposed to be counted this is why LAs got so cross that very little reinvestment took place |
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#44 |
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When introducing the task, LS stated that it was the wholesale value that would be counted.
You can exhaust the potential sales in a particular area. Regular visitors to that area, who have not bought the product, may not want it. You cannot assume the same volume of sales every day in an area. If you have limited personnel available all of whom are selling, it may be wise to wait until the selling time is over and then restock ready for the 3rd(hypothetical) day. |
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#45 |
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Except that he didn't, as far as we saw, run out of umbrellas which were what he seemed to be selling at a very good profit. He carried on selling them until he ran out.
In the second conversation, he mentions selling another £50, but he's unhappy with it because he knows with better products he could have sold more (as he had been doing earlier). This is where he points out they'll get fined and ridiculed for not restocking, so finally Natasha relents and lets him go. But it's too late. Jim was right. They not only get fined and ridiculed, they lose their treat. It must have been so frustrating for him to suffer for her ill-judgement, when he was telling her the right answer. Quote:
"Oh come on" is not a part of any logical argument.
I wrote that because I had thought you knew as well as anyone how staged the boardroom is. Lord Sugar needs to know what went on before he asks, in order to ask the right questions. Especially with the winning team, as this session before the results are announced are the only chance he gets to grill them. So he knows the figures before he goes in. The figures make it clear Natasha reinvested £303, not £20.Quote:
Either he was suffering from the red mist or he was giving a very good impression of suffering from it.
He was angry with Natasha because she'd been stupid. Making the round trip for £20 was stupid. It's clear she's trying to avoid ending up with unsold stock. Her defending that choice was stupid.
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#46 |
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I'm thinking here of the 2 phone calls he made on the second day where he asks for permission to restock. I think he did run out of umbrellas by the first call. We don't see him selling umbrellas in between.
Had he gone earlier he would simply have shifted his selling time from peak to well off peak. Quote:
The reason Natasha gives for refusing him permission is not time, but "we'll be carrying too much stock", which is a non-issue with the task rules.
There's absolutely no doubt that Natasha has the wrong end of the stick. However, that was not what stopped them doing what Sugar wanted which was to keep restocking. All that did was vary what was left at the end which was, in reality, an irrelevance as the task was finished.Quote:
It looks to me like he has no umbrellas, but does have all the electronic tat that Natasha spent a fortune on, and she wants him to sell that. So he tries.
That's pure supposition of something that is necessary to make your case. The figures don't support that.Quote:
In the second conversation, he mentions selling another £50, but he's unhappy with it because he knows with better products he could have sold more (as he had been doing earlier). This is where he points out they'll get fined and ridiculed for not restocking, so finally Natasha relents and lets him go.
Again, pure supposition. He says nothing about selling anything else and the figures don't really support your argument.Quote:
I wrote that because I had thought you knew as well as anyone how staged the boardroom is. Lord Sugar needs to know what went on before he asks, in order to ask the right questions.
Yet again, pure supposition. I could believe it either way. Certainly the on the occasion mega sale where he announced; "We're back in business" he must be quite an actor to fake that level of surprise.Quote:
So he knows the figures before he goes in.
You stating it dogmatically does not make it so. ![]() Quote:
The figures make it clear Natasha reinvested £303, not £20.
So, there really was no need for him to throw the wobbler.Quote:
He was angry with Natasha because she'd been stupid. Making the round trip for £20 was stupid. It's clear she's trying to avoid ending up with unsold stock. Her defending that choice was stupid.
We didn't hear her tell Jim to only spend £20. She just told him to go. Maybe he spent that because he knew he would only have a few minutes in a dead market and was unlikely to sell much so it was simply pointless to buy more.Whatever, it made no difference whatsoever to the result of the task. |
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#47 |
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I think if that had been the way it was scored they would have been desperate to restock right up to the end.
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#48 |
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as jim was and helan did
And Jim would have spent all available funds if that had been the case, not just £20. |
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#49 |
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No, I meant that all the members of both teams would have made it an absolute priority to do so.
And Jim would have spent all available funds if that had been the case, not just £20. and if we are all confused over the rules , I think all of them were It is just that this way round explains why LAS was so cross and JIm was so desperate to restock |
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#50 |
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It is just that this way round explains why LAS was so cross and JIm was so desperate to restock
From memory, almost everyone here assumed that they would get the wholesale price. But you are quite right that if the got the retail price it would have changed the whole nature of the task. Could it be that it was so badly explained that not only did 5 of the six candidates get the wrong end of the stick but also the majority of people on DS? |
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