[C14E]

Originally Posted by Georged123

Secondly, what do you mean by "budgeting for failure"? Are you saying ITV should be spending many millions on a new show, giving it the cushiest scheduling in the history of TV and massive promotion for weeks just to fail?

I think when they're trying out new formats, the "hit rate" for all broadcasters is so bad that they should always be aware that it will more likely fail than succeed. They have to be willing to see some flops to find some hits. The fact that a new format fails isn't the end of the world (albeit with ROB it's more disappointing than usual because of the budget). But now, because of their bizzare scheduling, they've messed up Corrie as well. When they could have put Red or Black at 9pm, kept Corrie in its usual slot and Red or Black would still have got Corrie lead-ins.

That's not to say that the ratings for Red or Black are anything less than rubbish. And while one failure isn't a huge issue, the lack of any significant new hits in recent years is more of an issue.

[AlexiR]

Originally Posted by C14E

Things are definitely starting to look poor for ITV's entertainment development in the past few years...

I think part of the problem for ITV entertainment formats is that the game of expectations. When you’ve got The X Factor, Britain’s Got Talent, Dancing on Ice and I’m A Celebrity… all airing on the same network there’s surely a heightened expectation for any entertainment format you produce. Everyone (including ITV to an extent) is looking for the next big thing rather than a format that can maybe grow or be a solid performer. Although with Family Fortunes and to a lesser extent The Cube I suppose they do have those solid but not spectacular performers.

At times (and particularly with Red or Black) they seem to be trying too hard to find big event television and launch something as big event television rather than letting audiences find it and letting it grow. I think they’ve forgotten that their two big hitters started relatively small and grew into big event television naturally. But then of course they go from one extreme to the other because the Summer Saturday night schedule had more than an air of fumbling in the dark and just throwing anything they could find at the wall and hoping something would stick.

And thanks for the comedy numbers.

[allthingsuk]

I don't usually post on the Ratings Thread (I'm usually on the BBC F1 thread) but after the horrific performance of Red or Black, I cannot see a way back for the show. Who's bright idea was it to put RoB against EastEnders? Has common sense gone completely AWOL over at ITV HQ? I am not interested in watching a show which is just a game of chance - at least with Millionaire, you needed knowledge to get the money - RoB is really flawed at this, and some of the challenges are bordering on tedious in the extreme. Honestly...and Corrie is suffering as a result, but I have to say, the episodes this week have been good but a bit repetitive and certainly no patch on the John Stape and Tony Gordon/Underworld fire watershed weeks.

[Charnham]

ITV scheulding has not helped Red or Black, airing it every day for a week, was only going to make a weak format look weak. Had it been only on Saturday I think it would have done better.

[Bushmills]

Originally Posted by allthingsuk

I don't usually post on the Ratings Thread (I'm usually on the BBC F1 thread) but after the horrific performance of Red or Black, I cannot see a way back for the show. Who's bright idea was it to put RoB against EastEnders? Has common sense gone completely AWOL over at ITV HQ? .

Whose bright idea was it to put RoB against Watchdog?

[Charnham]

Originally Posted by Bushmills

Whose bright idea was it to put RoB against Watchdog?

*chuckles* lol, I am so happy today, *chuckles some more*

[C14E]

Originally Posted by AlexiR

I think part of the problem for ITV entertainment formats is that the game of expectations. When you’ve got The X Factor, Britain’s Got Talent, Dancing on Ice and I’m A Celebrity… all airing on the same network there’s surely a heightened expectation for any entertainment format you produce. Everyone (including ITV to an extent) is looking for the next big thing rather than a format that can maybe grow or be a solid performer. Although with Family Fortunes and to a lesser extent The Cube I suppose they do have those solid but not spectacular performers.

At times (and particularly with Red or Black) they seem to be trying too hard to find big event television and launch something as big event television rather than letting audiences find it and letting it grow. I think they’ve forgotten that their two big hitters started relatively small and grew into big event television naturally. But then of course they go from one extreme to the other because the Summer Saturday night schedule had more than an air of fumbling in the dark and just throwing anything they could find at the wall and hoping something would stick.

I'd pretty much agree with all of this. They have found a few shows that can play well alongside The X Factor. And I doubt we'll see anything else which matches X Factor's ratings. But they could still be finding shows for weeknights or which can work on weekends without X Factor and draw 6m or so.

[AlexiR]

Originally Posted by Charnham

ITV scheulding has not helped Red or Black, airing it every day for a week, was only going to make a weak format look weak. Had it been only on Saturday I think it would have done better.

In fairness that's probably because it would have had The X Factor propping it up.

I still don't quite understand why they stripped it across the week (unless they realised they had a bomb and just wanted it out of the way as quickly as possible) because there's no continuing thread between each edition. Britain's Got Talent makes sense stripped across the week because there's one thread all building toward the final but Red or Black doesn't have that. They start completely fresh every night and the whole thing is finished by the end of the night. Nothing about this show reads like a show that should be stripped across the week.

[allthingsuk]

Originally Posted by Charnham

ITV scheulding has not helped Red or Black, airing it every day for a week, was only going to make a weak format look weak. Had it been only on Saturday I think it would have done better.

But let us not forget Millionaire (which debuted in September 1998) did remarkably well and dented Casualty (which got 9.82 million to Millionaire's 10.55 million). But it could be argued Casualty was losing its status as a Saturday night juggernaut in the late 90's. Millionaire was a good format with good ratings (a high of 12/13 million in the first series) but I don't think it was until 1999 that the show really took off.

[Pizzatheaction]

Originally Posted by allthingsuk

Who's bright idea was it to put RoB against EastEnders?

I don't know whose idea it was, but I get the feeling the decision wasn't made with the awareness that a new show needs nurturing. I suspect the decision was made with the assumption Red or Black would be an instant success and dent the ratings for EastEnders.

[Bushmills]

Originally Posted by C14E

I Elaine Bedell probably has some choice words for Ms Rosencrantz just now! And with their long running knowledge of TV, Archie Norman and Adam Crozier are probably saying "who is this Claudia woman?"

If they cared to look, they'd see that, as well as commissioning Millionaire, she also brought in Pop Idol, The X Factor, Saturday Night Takeaway, I'm A Celebrity and Dancing On Ice.

The current Head of Entertainment? Born to Shine, The Marriage Ref, Penn & Teller, Show Me The Funny and now RoB.

[Charnham]

Originally Posted by AlexiR

In fairness that's probably because it would have had The X Factor propping it up.

there are alot worse ways to launch a new show, even if X-Factor had propped it up in its first series, series 2 could have aired without it.

I think ITVs decesion to strip it across the week, is as much to blame for this flop as the show having a poor format.

[AlexiR]

Originally Posted by Charnham

there are alot worse ways to launch a new show, even if X-Factor had propped it up in its first series, series 2 could have aired without it.

I think ITVs decesion to strip it across the week, is as much to blame for this flop as the show having a poor format.

I'm not saying using The X Factor to prop the show up would have been a bad thing. But in many respects its probably for the best (long term) that they didn't do that.

[D.M.N.]

Let's be honest, I think at this stage, it is more than just the scheduling that is just Red or Black's problem, it's the entire format. No show should still be losing viewers at episode/show 5 unless it has fundamental problems.

[Charnham]

Originally Posted by AlexiR

I'm not saying using The X Factor to prop the show up would have been a bad thing. But in many respects its probably for the best (long term) that they didn't do that.

in the long term no, I wouldnt continue to use X-Factor to prop it up, I would let the show sink or swim on its own in the second series, but even in the second series I would not have stripped it.

how do we all feel about Ant & Dec at the moment, I was told off for daring to suggest they might be past it, before Red of Black flopped, and well my point is still valid.

Ant & Dec, have got 3 shows on ITV at present.

Britains Got Talent
Ant & Decs: Push the Button
Im a Celeb....

Push the Button is as much a flop as Red or Black? only it seems that we are not allowed to say so, the 2nd series finishing with a record low of 3,920,000 viewers.

Britains Got Talent, im confident would be just as succesful with Ant & Dec, and can carry them, most of the job from what I can tell involves peeking around the curtain and saying how good or bad someone is.

Im a celeb...., is IMO a show that benefits from Ant & Dec, but still I think if Dancing on Ice can be succesful without them, push comes to shove Im a Celeb.... can be as welll.

Whilst Ant & Dec are not exactly claiming Jobseekers 9 months a year between ITV gigs, the fact that the only show to be named after them is a flop should concern them. BGT does not need them, whilst Im a Celeb... does benefit but I think could go on without them, and its hardly the creative high point of their careers.

Ant & Dec need to replace Push the Button with something credible, before others start to notice.

[mlt11]

ITV shares down almost 7% today - that is a big fall in one day on any basis.

FTSE down just over 2%.

[C14E]

Originally Posted by Bushmills

If they cared to look, they'd see that, as well as commissioning Millionaire, she also brought in Pop Idol, The X Factor, Saturday Night Takeaway, I'm A Celebrity and Dancing On Ice.

The current Head of Entertainment? Born to Shine, The Marriage Ref, Penn & Teller, Show Me The Funny and now RoB.

Indeed, they could do worse than bringing her back. She had her flops (although Celebrity Love Island did alright when she oversaw it in 2005!) but it hardly mattered compared to the hits. Hell's Kitchen as well - obviously it didn't last in the UK when Ramsay left but it gave ITVS a hit format for the US. She also brought Paul O'Grady back with his teatime show for ITV (and her departure contributed to his moving to C4). And while she's criticising Red or Black for now, she does have a good relationship with Syco/Cowell. She was the one who took the meeting with Fuller & Cowell for Pop Idol and bought it on the spot. Then backed Cowell with X Factor and Britain's Got Talent.

EDIT: As for the Ant & Dec discussion, nobody is blaming Ant & Dec for Red or Black being a flop. They're still the best entertainment presenters by a mile, particularly with the total lack of new talent coming through. It's just a case of getting the right format.

[Charnham]

Originally Posted by C14E

Indeed, they could do worse than bringing her back. She had her flops (although Celebrity Love Island did alright when she oversaw it in 2005!) but it hardly mattered compared to the hits. Hell's Kitchen as well - obviously it didn't last in the UK when Ramsay left but it gave ITVS a hit format for the US. She also brought Paul O'Grady back with his teatime show for ITV (and her departure contributed to his moving to C4). And while she's criticising Red or Black for now, she does have a good relationship with Syco/Cowell. She was the one who took the meeting with Fuller & Cowell for Pop Idol and bought it on the spot. Then backed Cowell with X Factor and Britain's Got Talent.

that does read pretty well, why did she leave in the first place?

I suspect there is more to ITV shares than Red or Black? flopping.

[Pizzatheaction]

Originally Posted by C14E

EDIT: As for the Ant & Dec discussion, nobody is blaming Ant & Dec for Red or Black being a flop. They're still the best entertainment presenters by a mile, particularly with the total lack of new talent coming through. It's just a case of getting the right format.

If Red or Black came back for a second series, and I realise that's pretty much only a theoretical question now, but, if it came back, could Ant and Dec say "shove it", or would they have to present a second series even if they didn't really want to, and/or they felt a second series wouldn't be the best thing for their careers?

[Mixxie]

ROB has been on too much. I keep forgetting about it.

[mossy2103]

Originally Posted by Pizzatheaction

I suspect the decision was made with the assumption Red or Black would be an instant success and dent the ratings for EastEnders.

Yep, Simon Cowell, lavish sets, Ant & Dec, £1 million prizes, the odd X Factor guest - screw the format, it just cannot fail.

[Sun!]

Poor night for ROB, and it will probably do worse tonight against EE, also its pulled CS down quite a bit.

[Charnham]

Originally Posted by Sun!

Poor night for ROB, and it will probably do worse tonight against EE, also its pulled CS down quite a bit.

that alone is cause for concern.

[AlexiR]

Originally Posted by Charnham

in the long term no, I wouldnt continue to use X-Factor to prop it up, I would let the show sink or swim on its own in the second series, but even in the second series I would not have stripped it.

When I talked about it being for the best long term that they didn't prop the show up with The X Factor I meant more that this way they haven't been put in a position where a second (expensive) series can be justified only to have that land without The X Factor and completely bomb.

Originally Posted by Charnham

how do we all feel about Ant & Dec at the moment...

I think the real problem Ant & Dec have is the incredibly poor judgment they’ve shown in regards to the formats they’ve allowed themselves to become attached to. Red or Black is just the latest show since the Pokerface disaster that they’ve fronted which simply haven’t been very good and I think you can only make so many bad shows before the bond or trust with an audience is broken. Viewers used to see Ant & Dec as a sign of a quality show but with the likes of Push The Button, Red or Black and vanity projects like their golf tournament thing and Soccer Aid I think the audience has simply stopped seeing their involvement in a show as a sign that it’ll be good.

What Ant & Dec desperately need next year (and ITV need for it to happen to) is a new show that’s good. Forget about retooling Push the Button because it’s a tainted brand at this point and find a brand new format. They need to repair the damage they’ve done to their reputation by fronting so many poor shows.

[Charnham]

Originally Posted by AlexiR

When I talked about it being for the best long term that they didn't prop the show up with The X Factor I meant more that this way they haven't been put in a position where a second (expensive) series can be justified only to have that land without The X Factor and completely bomb.

the show was too expensive to land anywhere, as for if it would flop with a X-Factor less second series, I dont know, the first series should have built up enough viewers to tell you if a second series is worthwhile or not.

Originally Posted by AlexiR

What Ant & Dec desperately need next year (and ITV need for it to happen to) is a new show that’s good. Forget about retooling Push the Button because it’s a tainted brand at this point and find a brand new format. They need to repair the damage they’ve done to their reputation by fronting so many poor shows.

agreed