[ChrisRedpath]

Originally Posted by TheSilentFez

I just assumed most people realised that they were gay in their teens, because that's when hormones start to kick in etc.

I'm not so sure it starts then - if I remember my childhood properly then I was attracted to girls from age 6 or 7 (indeed, my first vaguely sexual experience was well before my teens) and most definitely not attracted to boys.

Even allowing for some societal bias there, you would probably know within yourself how you were going to swing at an early age even if you didn't consciously connect it with a 'sexual orientation' until later. Not being gay though, I don't know for sure.

[MinkytheDog]

Originally Posted by jodo

Fleming's maddest trait that he gave Bond is that Bond believed homosexuals couldn't whistle (I'm not making this up!) which is why in some of the early Connery films he's often seen whistling!

When I was a kid, we were told that gays couldn't make a noise when they farted and that's why they were called "poofs". Mind you, we were also told that only virgins could get their knees and ankles to touch together at the same time.

We had some really crap teachers at our school

[Medan74]

I just rewatched it while keeping in mind what we had been talking about on this thread. Fez, to be clear I was not saying that the character WAS autistic, but that I interpreted the child's situation as a metaphor for autism. I noticed a couple extra things on my second viewing I would like to share.

First, George seems very emotionally disconnected. The autistic people I have met come across that way, the ones I knew had a very real problem expressing themselves emotionally and making connections even with the people closest to them.

The big one that I noticed this time around was the possible metaphor of George himself. An alien trying to be human and live among humans, but not knowing exactly how to, or what makes him different, or how to be accepted.

[TheSilentFez]

Originally Posted by Medan74

I just rewatched it while keeping in mind what we had been talking about on this thread. Fez, to be clear I was not saying that the character WAS autistic, but that I interpreted the child's situation as a metaphor for autism. I noticed a couple extra things on my second viewing I would like to share.

First, George seems very emotionally disconnected. The autistic people I have met come across that way, the ones I knew had a very real problem expressing themselves emotionally and making connections even with the people closest to them.

The big one that I noticed this time around was the possible metaphor of George himself. An alien trying to be human and live among humans, but not knowing exactly how to, or what makes him different, or how to be accepted.

I didn't think that you thought the character was autistic. I just thought OCD was a better metaphor, because he actually exhibited characteristics of an Obsessive Compulsive person.
I suppose it could symbolise children growing up with any kind of mental conditions.

[k9fan]

Originally Posted by MinkytheDog

You could - if you wanted to - read various things into almost every aspect of a show like this. Prime example - RTD gave Time Lords the ability to spot or sense each other - that could be compared to "gaydar".

Part of it is that we know more about the personal lives of the cast and crew in a way we never did in the past (at least, not at the time). It's very likely that a fair portion of the writers and production crew in the 60's, 70's and 80's were gay, racist, mysoginist, dog-lovers - but no-one spotted their secret messages - because no-one was looking for them - or they didn't exist.

I'd compare it with James Bond - it's only in recnt years that people have "spotted" that all Bond villains are physically handicapped in some way. Now we "know", we can look back and say that every scar and sneeze is another sign of the author's prejudice - he associates physical imperfections with "evil". The fact is that it is highly unlikely that a man who - in real life - saw wars and worked in the military would regard injuries as any such thing - he just followed a tradition in fiction of "damaging" villains - but he's now pointed at as if he's the only person ever to suggest such a thing.

Likewise, "monsters in the wardrobe" has been around a very long time. It's very likely that no-one would even consider the notion of "the closet" referring to sexuality if it hadn't been for the high-profile coverage of RTD's sexuality and his inclusion of gay characters with equal standing to straight ones.

Forty years ago, people might have looked at recent series and seen a "black agenda". Now, the inclusion of black actors as heroes or villains is largely unnoticed - we just grew out of seeing anything novel or interesting about it. In another forty years, we won't even consider the idea of their being "gay stories" any more than we'd point at one and say "that's so hetero".

No, it would never have occurred to me
As I said before, I tend to accept things that I see such as that programme at face value - wife could not have a baby, tenza felt her need and became their baby who had fears of monsters.

[Medan74]

Originally Posted by TheSilentFez

Yeh. If he had autism he would probably have less compulsive behaviour and more strange behaviour when interacting with other people.
To me he seemed to have a mixture of OCD and anxiety.

Keep in mind that autism and OCD are not mutually exclusive. One specific young man I knew that was severely autistic had a huge set of rules that had to be followed or he would freak out. These all made sense to him and were a huge part of his world, but to an outsider meeting him for the first time it would seem very weird that, for example. he would only eat a sandwich if the mayonnaise was only spread on one side and that when the sandwich was folded together the mayo had to be on the bottom side. He wouldn't touch a sandwich with the mayonnaise on top. If you tried to flip it after he saw it he would get mad because he thought you were trying to fool him into thinking that a "mayo up" sandwich was really a "mayo down" sandwich. This was one of the things I was thinking about when I saw the "lights have to be turned on 5 times" scene.

[Bhobtoo]

Originally Posted by snopaelic

huh? gay kids did i miss an epesode?

No, you didn't miss anything. Just one of those heterophobes trying to read gay into everything they see. This was just an episode about a frightened child and the Doctor came to rescue him.

[blimpyboy]

A whole page of posts just disappeared.

[chipchat]

Originally Posted by blimpyboy

A whole page of posts just disappeared.

I blame The Silence.

[Granny McSmith]

Originally Posted by blimpyboy

A whole page of posts just disappeared.

And for once I'm quite happy about it.

[tingramretro]

Originally Posted by blimpyboy

A whole page of posts just disappeared.

And yet curiously, not the post above yours, which actually started all the trouble...

[Granny McSmith]

Originally Posted by tingramretro

And yet curiously, not the post above yours, which actually started all the trouble...

Yes, I thought that was odd.

[lach doch mal]

Originally Posted by tingramretro

And yet curiously, not the post above yours, which actually started all the trouble...

You astound me sometimes (in a positive way), must be your love for good old Derek.

I have to say I really liked the original post that suggested that the story was a metaphor, and it seemed to inspire a lot of interesting discussions (e.g. autism).

I think the singer from nine inch nails once said that he didn't mind if people misquoted his songs, because he thought it was great that people thought about his songs and provided their own interpretations.

I assume even if Mark Gatiss did not intend to have any underlying meaning, he probably would be flattered that the story inspired people to assign deeper meaning to it.

[Bhobtoo]

Originally Posted by TheSilentFez

I didn't think that you thought the character was autistic. I just thought OCD was a better metaphor, because he actually exhibited characteristics of an Obsessive Compulsive person.
I suppose it could symbolise children growing up with any kind of mental conditions.

Or, surprise!!!, it could be a metaphor for a child who is afraid to be left alone in the dark. You really don't have to be mentally anything to be afraid of the unknown. Many children exhibit unwarranted fears, even in loving homes where there has never been any overt violence displayed.

Yes, we know he is an alien. But he was an alien who needed a home and needed someone to love him. Not an evil, blood-sucking, bent on world domination alien, but a needy, frightened child of an alien. He found a couple who wanted a child and were not able to have a child of their own. He bacame aware that there was a possibility that his (adopted) parents might send him away and he became frightened. Hence, his cry for help, which was answered by the Doctor.

[Granny McSmith]

Originally Posted by lach doch mal

You astound me sometimes (in a positive way), must be your love for good old Derek.

I have to say I really liked the original post that suggested that the story was a metaphor, and it seemed to inspire a lot of interesting discussions (e.g. autism).

I think the singer from nine inch nails once said that he didn't mind if people misquoted his songs, because he thought it was great that people thought about his songs and provided their own interpretations.

I assume even if Mark Gatiss did not intend to have any underlying meaning, he probably would be flattered that the story inspired people to assign deeper meaning to it.

I agree, lach.

This was what I meant to say in my removed post, but of course you say it better.

A writer doesn't have to consciously mean anything more than what's on the page. A good piece of writing will evoke many meanings in the reader/audience, and they are all valid interpretations. I bet Gatiss would be chuffed if he knew about this discussion!

The discussion has been insightful and interesting.

But on to more important matters. I am intrigued as to the identity of Derek.

[chipchat]

Originally Posted by lach doch mal

You astound me sometimes (in a positive way), must be your love for good old Derek.

I have to say I really liked the original post that suggested that the story was a metaphor, and it seemed to inspire a lot of interesting discussions (e.g. autism).

I think the singer from nine inch nails once said that he didn't mind if people misquoted his songs, because he thought it was great that people thought about his songs and provided their own interpretations.

I assume even if Mark Gatiss did not intend to have any underlying meaning, he probably would be flattered that the story inspired people to assign deeper meaning to it.

There's also to me the quite pleasant notion that for all the things that may mark us out as different to one another, a story can offer a common shared experience, something that makes people of all kinds of different experiences point and say "Is that about me? I think it is!".

I think the story in Who wasn't intended to have some of the subtexts that people have read into it, but I think it's wonderful that it can relate to so many.

[lach doch mal]

Originally Posted by Granny McSmith

I agree, lach.

This was what I meant to say in my removed post, but of course you say it better.

A writer doesn't have to consciously mean anything more than what's on the page. A good piece of writing will evoke many meanings in the reader/audience, and they are all valid interpretations. I bet Gatiss would be chuffed if he knew about this discussion!

The discussion has been insightful and interesting.

But on to more important matters. I am intrigued as to the identity of Derek.

I bet he would be, and he seems such a lovely bloke.

With regards to Derek, I don't know if I'm allowed to say, but Moffat isn't the only Scottish person Tingy admires.

Spoiler

He used to be the lead singer of Marillion

[Granny McSmith]

Originally Posted by lach doch mal

I bet he would be, and he seems such a lovely bloke.

With regards to Derek, I don't know if I'm allowed to say, but Moffat isn't the only Scottish person Tingy admires.

Spoiler

He used to be the lead singer of Marillion

I was trying to think of a DW related Derek and could only think of Jacobi.

And he is surely too august a personage to be referred to as "good old"

[lach doch mal]

Originally Posted by Granny McSmith

I was trying to think of a DW related Derek and could only think of Jacobi.

And he is surely too august a personage to be referred to as "good old"

Definitely.

[rivercity_rules]

Didn't enjoy this much, all a bit slow paced, not much happening.

I've decided Amy is tenza though, trying to fit in with the Doctor. Mainly because I had to find reason for them airing such a dull episode.

[lach doch mal]

Originally Posted by chipchat

There's also to me the quite pleasant notion that for all the things that may mark us out as different to one another, a story can offer a common shared experience, something that makes people of all kinds of different experiences point and say "Is that about me? I think it is!".

I think the story in Who wasn't intended to have some of the subtexts that people have read into it, but I think it's wonderful that it can relate to so many.

I agree, and I would say it's the mark of a good story.

I also agree that there is probably no intended subtexts, but the fact that people have assigned deeper meaning to it makes it more interesting IMO.

[sandydune]

In Morse Code five dashes means 0, zero.


dash dash dash / dot dot dot dot/
dash dot dot / dot / dot dash / dot dash dot /

[Stone Free]

wrong thread, please delete

[Bruce Wayne]

Originally Posted by sandydune

In Morse Code five dashes means 0, zero.


dash dash dash / dot dot dot dot/
dash dot dot / dot / dot dash / dot dash dot /

.-- .... -.-- / --- -. / . .- .-. - .... / .-- --- ..- .-.. -.. / -.-- --- ..- / -... . / ..- ... .. -. --. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .

[MinkytheDog]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne

.-- .... -.-- / --- -. / . .- .-. - .... / .-- --- ..- .-.. -.. / -.-- --- ..- / -... . / ..- ... .. -. --. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .

-.-. --- ... / .... . .----. ... / -.. --- - - -.--