I think that the Doctor that dies is the real Doctor and an advanced Ganger Doctor takes over as the new Doctor. The Ganger Doctor is in the spacesuit.

I think that the unanswered question for the future could be can the new (Ganger) Doctor regenerate.

I just chose the obvious choice of River Song.

In Lets Kill Hitler they say Melody Pond killed the Doctor & his death date was April 2011.....in TIA......case closed?

Probably, unless its Gwen Cooper out for revenge after the Doctor introduced TV world to Captain Jack!

It probably was the justice robot people, punishing the doctor for destroying the time lords .

Just had a quick look at LKH and something stands out.

The Tasseldancer crew didn't identify Melody/River initially - they identified the Tardis first - the operator spotted the "blue box" - then came the line about "We're trying to bag war criminals - we've got the biggest one ever right under our noses" and then says "That's her" - they're talking about Melody Pond.

The Tardis is showing on their sceen as "Stolen" - which we assumed referred to the Doctor stealing the Tardis on Gallifrey but...

I reckon they have a record of "Melody Pond" stealing the Tardis and that theft is connected to her killing the Doctor.

Note also that they didn't confirm that she was Melody Pond until after she regen'd into Alex K's Melody.

Put that all together and we cyce back to a question I've been asking since TIA - where is 1103's Tardis?


The 1103 Doctor had to have it to get to Utah in 2011 and neither he nor River would leave it lying around - it has to be at least as valuable to any badguys as a Time Lord's skin cells - so unless it was taken by a badguy and we haven't been shown that. the 1103 Doctor, another River from the one at the picnic or both used it to arrive and one or both of them left in it after his "death".

We know she hasn't stolen the Tardis yet . We also know - or at least, were told - that the Doctor who died was from 200 years into his own future. That must mean that the dead Doctor's Tardis is also a "future version".

Since 909 has the Tardis both before and after Utah, Melody MUST steal a future version of the Tardis but 1103 had to have used that Tardis to get there. In other words, for it to be true that Melody Pond stole the Tardis, it could only have happened after his death - which doesn't happen - accoding to him - for another 200 years. Thing is - as far as we know - Melody Pond is now human and would be dead long before then - plus she'll have changed her name to River Song.

Sorry if this is getting a bit complicated - I'll try to bullet point it....[LIST=1][*]"River Song" is in Stormcage prison and is known as a killer - under that name.
[*]The Tesalecta only knew her as the Doctor's killer under the name of Melody Pond.
[*]Which mean that "River Song" is not in prison for killing the Doctor.
[*]The Tardis was "stolen" which couldn't have happened until after his death
[*]The Tardis was used to identify Melody Pond when her "Mels" face was unknown
[*]Therefore - Melody Pond has to have "stolen" the Tardis
[*]The Tesalecta idenitified "Melody Pond" visually when she looked like River
[*]Therefore - River had the Tardis after the Doctor's death.[/LIST]
Since we know she didn't steal a Tardis after 1103's death - we saw her the whole time - a later version of River Song had to have been in Utah in April 2011.

If that makes sense - and I think the logic is sound - we now know for certain for the first time that there were two Rivers in Utah in April 2011.

Unlike the Doctor - who could have lied about being 1103 and 909 if the "death" was faked - there MUST be two completely different versions of River since the one we saw was never out of everyone's sight (unlike the Doctor).

That either points to her being the killer or - more likely given that this spare River is proven to be "good" (she risked her life to save him in LKH) - there to save him. Since there was no obvious sign of her literally trying to save or protect him, I'd say she pretty well has to be involved in either faking the shooting or in resuscitating him afterwards.

Either way, she'd almost certainly have to be involved in some sort of plan with the Doctor. The alternative is that he really did go to his death and that future River (maybe even with a future Rory and Amy) went to Utah to rescue him without his knowledge - which could cause all sorts of problems with time since his death was a fixed point.


The bottom line is - there were two River Songs in Utah - and the proof is that one of them flew away in the Tardis after the Doctor's death.


Hope that makes sense - it's harder to explain than to visualise. Tell me if anything's not clear and I'll try to reword or explain it more clearly. If there are any factual mistakes, let me know.

This is good mate. Well thought out.

Cheers - that one was a complete barsteward to write out cos I hadn't had time to work through it enough to summarise it properly

the older doctor didn't need the tardis to travel to Utah, we saw him having adventures in chronological order over around 200 years on earth at the start of the episode, I think he's been trapped on earth without his tardis for those 200 years, I think you're absolutely right that it's been stolen by river though

They are not going to kill off the Doctor and replace him with a copy. It just wouldn't happen.

When I hinted at this theory a couple of weeks ago, I was virtually laughed at

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...957&highlight=

I'd forgotten that thread - definite credit to you for raising it first.

Sadly, blind guessing is far more common (and much easier) than logical deduction and many reasonable ideas or insightful questions are brushed aside without ever being explored or else they are stamped on with an "It must be X - I have spoken" post or two.

That's a big part of the reason I write fairly long posts when I start a thread or post an idea - I try to pick my own ideas apart first and "show my working out" to pre-empt as many of those as possible. It makes for extra work and earns me a different type of piss-taking but it's less frustrating and makes it easier to spot the useful posts (I think a post that totally destroys a theory or idea with facts or solid logic is very useful - it helps reduce the possibilities and moves you a step close to solving the puzzle)

PS...

I hope it doesn't look like I stole your idea - I really had just watched the scene - I was looking for mention of the poison which I found and had to post elsewhere that I had just disproved something I'd suggested earlier (shame ) when that caught my attention.

If it helps - I rarely get any reply to my ideas or suggestions these days thanks to the "Minky posts mad theories" brigade. I don't care

Naaahhh!

Screw em!

I did - and then they stopped calling me.

I feel so dirty

Tart!

Doctor Winklestein said that I'm just reaching out to touch people.

The judge said that I'm going to jail if I do it again.

You just can't win.

I've just watched the scene again (Doctor getting shot) and after the Dr's death River Song attempts to shoot the Astronaught but fails. She gives up shooting and say 'No of course not'

To me this means it is indeed her as a child in the spacesuit and a paradox prevents her from killing herself as a child.

Or the rather more obvious: 'No, of course I couldn't expect to stop a space suit that shoots green energy from its hand, knows to shoot the Doctor during regeneration, and came from (and left in) the lake with a regular gun'...

A paradox is the result of two things that are mutually exclusive happening in the same reality - it's an outcome - not a power or force that can prevent anything from happening.

jeeze, that is obvious

Well... yes. It really is.

If something unexpected suddenly turns up, and shoots a green energy from its hand, do you really think you could stop it with a regular gun?

If you do, then you're not thinking sci-fi.

Well okay maybe Paradox is the wrong word, but you get my gist. Whatever the word is the point remains the same. Moffat may be addressing the issue of what would happen if you travelled back in time and killed the younger version of yourself?

Melody before she regenerated into Mells so had to vote other.

The Grandfather Paradox (in a sense!)