ignazio, I doubt anything I or Peeve say will alter your impression of Kartemites, but I have to 'correct' you on three points -

1. Artem hardly tweets or uses facebook - it's a rarity (thankfully, in my book, since I'm not a user of social media myself and can't see the attraction).

2. Kartemites are chatty bunch, we always have been. Comparing us to other 'fan groups' is meaningless - we're different people, with different shared interests (we do talk about things that aren't related to Kartem) and it seems odd to me to dislike us or be suspicious of us because we like to talk - a lot.

3. Naturally we are interested in what Kartem are up to but I don't think it's obsession, as you seem to be implying. I'm not interested in their personal life and a lot of us aren't either, but information offered to thread by those who are often sparks off general discussions and that's how the threads grow so quickly.

My original response on this thread was to correct the impression you had presented that some Kartemites are biased against Holly because she isn't Kara. I think most of us have just moved on - something you like promote - and either like Holly or not but based on her dancing and personality and not a spiteful and negative decision based on comparisons as you imply.

You're rather quick with your corrections and advice though I've yet to see anything with any basis for such patronising comments. There again perhaps the smiley acknowledges the risibility of your suggesions.

I was responding to peeve - but as you've given into temptation yet again (post 130) I'll reply.

I read a post relating to Artem's tweet. I don't use social media and you say you don't either - so how do you know Artem 'rarely' tweets?


Who said I dislike Kartemites - I simply don't make such sweeping generalisations - on the contrary I see a number of posters there with whom I have exchanged interesting views on various topics which have been neither contentious nor argumentative. In fact I introduced peeve to the Limericks thread and I'm so glad I did so - her rhymes are clever and always bring a smile.

Might I offer a word of advice - comment on the actual content of my posts not on your preconceptions.


I've repeatedly said that 'obsession' does not apply to all Kartemites - on the contrary I've used the word some so many times I'm surprised this still hasn't been taken on board in some places. Unfortunately there is nothing I can do about that. imo and without any intention of shouting I must stress that IT IS ONLY MY OPINION that those who devour every morsel of publicity the media bring to their attention ARE obsessive and by repeating it and encouraging others to discuss it are perpetuating the rumours that abound. This does the couple no favours at all. The media thrive on such feverish curiosity and as long as there are those who devour every detail of the lives of 'celebrities' with such avaricious appetite, unhealthy intrusion into the lives of couples like Kara and Artem will be perpetuated.

Your original response was to imply that I had suggested Kara's fans harboured some hatred towards Holly.
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showp...7&postcount=79


I said (and maintain) that some post negative comments because they don't judge her in isolation from Kara as witnessed by the "What would Kara have done with that" and similar comments.

Negativity and spite have very different definitions (point me in the direction of any post where I accused Kartem fans of spite) - though I won't be so patronising as to suggest you consult a dictionary.
I've said it above and I'll say it again -
Unfortunately there is nothing I can do about that - but I hope you don't mind if I draw your attention to the following extracted from this post.
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showp...&postcount=159



I'm sure most Kartemites have moved on; I'm sure those who are so reluctant to see Holly in Kara's place on the dance floor are a tiny minority - I'm equally sure they exist.

You really can't criticise Artem on here without a number of posters being quite dismissive. There is also the tendency for certain people to run off to other threads to bitch about what has been said. Not very mature or helpful.

I don't think Artem is as good as some people are making out. I feel like he is very much like Aliona at times - style over substance. His Salsa with Kara was pretty ridiculous, as she didn't actually do much dancing. Her AS was quite impressive, but it wasn't an AS.

I don't feel like he is tailoring the dances to Holly this year. She seems to lack confidence and she's very conscious of her height. Maybe she is lazy, but I don't feel like Artem is helping her in a lot of ways. Her Tango, AS and VW were all very lacking in content. I think Artem has been worse than Aliona this year in that respect, but Aliona is being lambasted and Artem isn't.

The "creative" choreography is not helping Holly to master the basics. It will only hurt her in the long run.

Ignazio, you seem to be very angry and I can assure you that my intention and my tone wasn't in anyway patronising - hence the addition of a smiley to hopefully set the friendly tone, I'm sorry this failed.

I think you're being very rude now. I'm sorry you couldn't have debated this subject with pleasantness and good humour. Do I need to add that these are the very virtues you'll find on the Kartem and Hartem threads.

Bye bye.

Oh, just for clarity - I'm not flouncing off, I'm not angry. I just think there is no point carrying on the discussion when you appear to see so much negativity where I see positivity. We're poles apart and you seem, forgive me if I'm wrong, to be getting increasingly upset.

Please don't flounce off, most reasonable people like to see some positivity.

Rest assured I am not angry and my blood pressure remains constant at all times - it takes rather more than someone attempting to continually correct me where no correction is necessary to anger me. Similarly I might not like being patronised or having words put into my mouth but it doesn't induce ire. Suggesting that I've used the words hatred and spite about Kartem fans when it clearly isn't so causes some bewilderment, especially when you seem to consider this might be the basis for 'good humoured debate' but I felt no bile rise in my throad. I simply responded to put the record straight.

I actually find misquoting another and perpetuating that misconception extremely rude. I hoped for an acknowledgement of the inaccuracies; what I didn't expect was the constant repetition of the erroneous references.

But hey - it seems there's a wide gulf between your definition of rudeness and mine.

Yours in good humour

Ignazio.

ps - I'm not at all upset - and of course I forgive you for yet another misinterpretation.

Ignoring all the dull Holly/Artem/Kara arguments - to return to the original topic, I thought the swan dance was an absolutely beautiful performance. Ok maybe not technically perfect so not a 10 from a judges point of view, but as a dance based entertainment it was wonderful to watch for me. A 10 for enjoyment factor.

I'm glad someone else has noticed the double standards.
Holly joined the show as one of the favourites. She's fit (in the old sense of the word) and athletic, she has a wonderful body (and come on, that's a big advantage) and she has (some) experience in dance. She's a half-decent actress, another important requirement. So, in other words, all the ingredients are there, but Artem has (so far) failed to produce a really scrumptious dish.
Don't get me wrong, I loved their routine on Saturday, But why all the savage attacks against Aliona, when Artem is equally to blame for some routines that have been woefully short in content ?

Because imo she's not that good a dancer or actress. She writhed in a pop video and she has appeared in virtually nothing as an actress after Neighbours.

I think she's actually quite a poor dancer - Alex or Anita poor, who are both a bit ropey in my opinion and that Artem has actually managed to do more with Holly than James or Robin have done with Alex or Anita.

She has poor posture, poor frame, poor characterisation (tango apart) and poor footwork. She also seems to not care that much whether she's there or not, she's very fatalistic and not very competitive.

She's a lovely, lovely person, but she's not a good dancer, imo, of course.

But none of that means she will be a good dancer. Some people just can't dance regardless of their profession or body shape.

Strictly history from Sarah Manners to Joe Calzaghe shows that having the right attributes on paper or being the bookies favourite before the show starts means diddly squat if the dancing gene is missing.

Maybe it's that Holly just isn't a dancer and that Artem has actually got her to the best that she can be.

Yup.

I'm one of those who grumbled about the Swan Lake routine, but I do have to acknowledge that Artem choreographed that routine cleverly. What Holly lacks in the feet, posture, frame and characterisation areas, she makes up for by having very good arms and extensions. Really, all she had to do was look disdainful and wave her arms about expressively.

Sorry, that sounds more dismissive than I mean to be, because she did improve in those weak areas, but she was still clumpy in places, so the limited amount of foxtrot she had to do was a sensible move on Artem's part.

Just want to agree, Holly is not a natural dancer and is average at best, she is poor in hold and better out of it so Artem choreographs routines to her strengths, Harry is wonderful in hold but Aliona keeps insisting on dancing mostly out of it.

Most Pros try to hide the bad points and showcase the good, Natalie and Flavia are really good at this.

On the subject of the thread, Artems AS left me cold, I really didn't like it. I have expressed this view where I usually live (on the Kara and Artem Appreciation thread) and guess what, everyone was fine about it, even my observation that Holly had a bit of the Lisa Snowdon about her during the end of the dance .

Yes, I think this might be the case. I'm sort of clinging on to the idea that now she's got the arms right she can work down.


I'm hoping it's wise judgement on Artem's part and that the good reactions she got on Saturday means that she has confidence to improve her lower strength etc..

100% agree with this. It is astonishing how some celebs pass into Strictly folk-lore as somehow much better dancers than they are - Laila Rouass being another example of a very attractive woman who had lamentable frame, poor coordination and little real feel for the music. I think it's quite a tribute to Artem that he manages to conceal her limitations by keeping her doing the 'pole-dance' type writhing she used in her pop days or being lifted by him for as much of the dances as possible.

Beautiful routine, probably my favourite choreography/concept ever... just a shame it wasn't executed later on in the competition.

Hoping she'll get to the final stages + redo it.

Rachel Stevens "writhed" in pop videos too, and she turned out to be a good dancer. Kara is a crap actress, so what has that got to do with anything?

If someone is too competitive, they get criticised. If someone has a more realistic approach i.e. that the world will not end if they get voted off, then they are slated for that too.

Poor frame etc could easily be corrected with the right training. I don't think she has realised her potential and that has largely been done to the choreography. Maybe she will never be the best, but I think she has the potential to be quite good. I wish Artem would actually attempt to do the dance he is given.

You think it's Artem, I think it's Holly!

Some were saying that Holly's performance skills should be brilliant because she has oodles of performing experience, I was disagreeing, I don't think she does, so I think because she's quite shy, she's struggling to bring a performance to some of her dances.

And I never actually called Holly crap, I just said that she actually doesn't have all that much experience in her field of expertise. So she's maybe going to struggle more than someone like Anita to "perform" her dance.

I also haven't criticised Holly for her attitude, I like her attitude and I like her.

Some people start as good dancers and become great, some start really well and stagnate, some start really badly and go on a journey, some start really badly and stay that way, everyone's an individual. Some are going to get better and some aren't.

I also think that a lot of the celebs over the years weren't as good as they were purported to have been. Lots of posters have the same opinion as I do, lots of posters have the same opinion as you, neither is more right than the other and if we all agreed it would be boring so we'll just have to agree to disagree unless Artem changes his choreography.

Finally, I think that the only dances that Artem has choreographed "creatively" are the VW and the AS. The AS he choreographed "creatively" for Kara too and the VW was, I guess, a personal decision as Holly looks better out of hold than in, imo.

It's all a matter of opinion though isn't it, you think Holly is good, I think she is average, I don't think she has done any theatre, so performing live may be a problem, she also has more problems than her frame, her footwork is terrible. Now I don't know if she can't do it or nerves make her mess up on the show. I'm sure Artem has tried to teach her.

Also I would like to disagree with your opinion that Kara is a crap actress, after seeing her perform in Pygmalion, (8 shows a week for 4 months) I can say that she is in fact a great little actress, which I'm sure the positive reviews from hard nosed critics and audiences confirm, something nearly unheard of for a the West End debut.

I didn't hate it it was a beautiful presentation but not an AS but then so was Harry's Tango with around 20 seconds of Tango in. These dances used to be the show stoppers the finals. The thing that put me off the most was the costume, I had listened to the description in ITT and was expecting something more light and floaty especially that wing that looked like twenty swans had donated their plumage to. Don't know what her feet were doing for much of the time as the pond mist covered them up

Decent dance, very nice concept. not an American Smooth at all IMO. the song contributed to that of course, but really I found myself saying at the end "That was supposed to be what again?"

Love the idea of Swan Lake on Strictly. I'd like the AS to have been a Strictly classic ; it wasn't but still quite good. People talk a lot about Holly, not bovvered, not as good as Kara etc. I think people think that because she's been partnered with Artem and has had some success as an actress and a singer she has a right to be brilliant and they are disappointed that she isn't quite matching up.

She's got to be herself, a laid back Aussie who can dance and perform a little. She's my favourite but... a winner ? Maybe not but perhaps a semi-finalist. Liking her, good luck to her.

I agree.There is a double standard. Aliona gets a lot of flack for her choreography and yes I do criticise her choreography but when Artem does a routine that does not include a lot of American smooth elements , its viewed by most as very beautiful and call "art "but what If Aliona had choreographed a similar routine?

The issue is more complex though. Very few pairs are concentrating on the dance steps. A majority did a show dance last week. Aliona will get more flack though because Len and the other judges have pointed out that he's avoiding doing the steps when he can do them well. People tend to repeat arguments they hear. Its also far from clear, elsewhere in other routines, if people could dance them or are wise avoiding them. Aliona may have made the wrong choice, when other people had no choice And timewise she took the trend to reduce time in hold further than anyone else. With Holly, its not at all clear what she could do if given more of the chosen dance's steps, or if Artem is taking her where she could go, or where the marks or votes are..

Kara's a very good actress. She's fortunate in SCD terms in that she's able to become someone very different and to do it in a way that works on stage or a dance floor. Holly is mainly experienced on TV or film which work at different distances. Eliza wasn't Kara. Holly tends to stay closer to herself - she is more like Flick - but Flick can play all sorts of situations as is. Kara may move and hold herself better but given a chance Holly may be more musical.

I think Artem made similar decisions with Kara and had similar results early on. His problem for me is that he is too interested in doing something artistic and not leaving enough time for the dancing to make its own impact . He also seems to be choregraphing everything but a close romantic relationship in their dances, for obvious reasons. The unknown factor is what works in a series where there's much less dancing technique, and whether doing something that artistically looks better can beat everyone else doing their equivalent.

I don't know who was responsible for trying to do an American Smooth dance to a dance from a ballet by a Russian composer but it was the most bizarre choice ever on SCD.
It was neither ballet or AS.

Then again the dances on SCD seem have less and less to do with the designated dances.