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Is Michael Jackson the best entertainer ever. |
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#1051 |
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Pandy65 made the most sensible post in this thread. Music and everything to do with it is definitley very highly subjective. We all have different tastes - no ones is better than the other.
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To Be Best Entertainer Ever:
1 To be attractive 2 Fantastic Dancer 3 Outstanding Voice 4 Charismatic 5 Groundbreaking 6 Funny 7 No 1 Showbusiness person in the 80's the most competitive decade in showbiz history. Michael Jackson ticks all those boxes. and thats the point, i poste when this thread was ressurected that fans think he is, everyone else knows hes not. Quote:
I was a kid during the 80's and i lived thru it EVERYBODY waited for the next MJ single and video, brillant as Madonna and Prince were this was not quite the same case, but looking back i think Madonna was trieding to get the Jackson effect.
you demonstrate on this thread everything wrong with jackson fans, your view is one of a fan and you try to impose that on the world of music generally. music fans watched out for any big artist, and after 'off the wall' jackson was one of those. but the big hyped up publicity stunt that was the vid for thriller turned many off as the quality of his material declined. ironically his fan base grew, so he gathered a large and devoted fanbase who worship him, but music fans started to desert him. |
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#1052 |
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I was a kid during the 80's and i lived thru it EVERYBODY waited for the next MJ single and video, brillant as Madonna and Prince were this was not quite the same case, but looking back i think Madonna was trieding to get the Jackson effect.
madonna does follow a similar path as she similarly requires other people to create her music, and her image and videos rather than musical talent plays a larger part in her fame, and she similarly mimes on stage. she has however been far more successful than MJ with her music career, with far more hit albums and singles, and still hitting the charts year on year and selling out shows |
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#1053 |
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MJ danced too hard to do an entire show live. I'd like to see King Elvis do the same routines and sing live for an entire concert. Of course he couldn't, but of course you are now somehow going to tell me that Elvis was a better dancer.
MJ sold the most records in the 80's, more than all those artists you mentioned. Yes he messed his face up later on but at one point he wasn't bad looking. Elvis was also a good looking guy in his youth but when he got older he became fat and washed up. Neither Elvis or MJ did anything original if you want to be rigid in your definition. Elvis took the music of many black artists and put some of his own spin on it. He therefore brought to the mainstream world something that they had not seen before but it existed previously. MJ took a lot of the dances he saw being done on the streets and some inspiration from James Brown, put some of his own spin on it and introduced it to the mainstream world. Again for the most part it was something the majority of the world had not seem before but it existed previously. Finally, I think people place too much emphasis on pop and rock n roll genres. There are other genres and IMO all genres should be as important as others. The Beatles and Elvis did not have the same defining impact on those genres. simply put, if a singer can't sing live during their shows, they shouldn't be on stage as for the dancing, it wasn't MJ who put his spin on things, it was the choreographers. you know when you watch music videos, the artists don't usually make up the dance routines? they don't usually direct the videos? they often don't write the songs or play any instruments on them. when you see an MJ video, you see and hear the work of dozens of people. likewise during a concert or movie regarding other genres, you probably aren't aware that prince has released a number of jazz albums, and music in a variety of styles, or that the influence of artists like elvis and the bealtes, and even prince flows throughout a number of genres from jazz to classical, blues, hip hop, dance, and i mean those styles in the purest sense, not pop-dance. miles davis performed a lot of princes work during his later live shows, in fact the final piece of music that miles davis played live in concert was a prince composition. and miles davis was the greatest jazz musician of all time. frank sinatra and even the elvis covered the beatles, who are perhaps the most covered band in history on the other hand, MJ's influence on music was not considerable at all , certainly not amongst other genres. as covered before, the artists who claim MJ's influence are amongst a list of some of the worst acts to hit the charts in recent years, the current batch of autotune mimimg pop puppets who rely on publicity and videos and promotion to counteract a major lack of talent |
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#1054 |
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i presume you aren't too familiar with MJ's live work. he did not dance energetically very often during his live shows. he certainly was not so energetic on stage that he should not have been able to sing live. prince was 10 times more energetic on stage, with far more energetic dancing, and far longer shows, and he never shouted or sounded out of breathe as he trained and rehearsed properly to be able to do so
simply put, if a singer can't sing live during their shows, they shouldn't be on stage as for the dancing, it wasn't MJ who put his spin on things, it was the choreographers. you know when you watch music videos, the artists don't usually make up the dance routines? they don't usually direct the videos? they often don't write the songs or play any instruments on them. when you see an MJ video, you see and hear the work of dozens of people. likewise during a concert or movie regarding other genres, you probably aren't aware that prince has released a number of jazz albums, and music in a variety of styles, or that the influence of artists like elvis and the bealtes, and even prince flows throughout a number of genres from jazz to classical, blues, hip hop, dance, and i mean those styles in the purest sense, not pop-dance. miles davis performed a lot of princes work during his later live shows, in fact the final piece of music that miles davis played live in concert was a prince composition. and miles davis was the greatest jazz musician of all time. frank sinatra and even the elvis covered the beatles, who are perhaps the most covered band in history on the other hand, MJ's influence on music was not considerable at all , certainly not amongst other genres. as covered before, the artists who claim MJ's influence are amongst a list of some of the worst acts to hit the charts in recent years, the current batch of autotune mimimg pop puppets who rely on publicity and videos and promotion to counteract a major lack of talent ![]()
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#1055 |
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I have to agree that you cant change the history of pop. Bill Haley started it and i actually like him more than Elvis, although I do like a lot of Elvis stuff. Elvis was the man who ran with the idea and created popular music. He was extremely charismatic and used his films to get that across. The Beatles did the same, taking a new sound and steering pop in a new direction. Whilst MJ made films, he was not able to steer pop in a new direction, as pop had already discovered that different genres could exist side by side. In that respect no one can lay claim to what Haley, Presley and the Beatles achieved.
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#1056 |
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i presume you aren't too familiar with MJ's live work. he did not dance energetically very often during his live shows. he certainly was not so energetic on stage that he should not have been able to sing live. prince was 10 times more energetic on stage, with far more energetic dancing, and far longer shows, and he never shouted or sounded out of breathe as he trained and rehearsed properly to be able to do so
simply put, if a singer can't sing live during their shows, they shouldn't be on stage as for the dancing, it wasn't MJ who put his spin on things, it was the choreographers. you know when you watch music videos, the artists don't usually make up the dance routines? they don't usually direct the videos? they often don't write the songs or play any instruments on them. when you see an MJ video, you see and hear the work of dozens of people. likewise during a concert or movie regarding other genres, you probably aren't aware that prince has released a number of jazz albums, and music in a variety of styles, or that the influence of artists like elvis and the bealtes, and even prince flows throughout a number of genres from jazz to classical, blues, hip hop, dance, and i mean those styles in the purest sense, not pop-dance. miles davis performed a lot of princes work during his later live shows, in fact the final piece of music that miles davis played live in concert was a prince composition. and miles davis was the greatest jazz musician of all time. frank sinatra and even the elvis covered the beatles, who are perhaps the most covered band in history on the other hand, MJ's influence on music was not considerable at all , certainly not amongst other genres. as covered before, the artists who claim MJ's influence are amongst a list of some of the worst acts to hit the charts in recent years, the current batch of autotune mimimg pop puppets who rely on publicity and videos and promotion to counteract a major lack of talent MJ was credited with producing and choreographing some of his music videos. For example he is credited with writing the screen play and producing and chereographing the thriller video, which is probably one of his most iconic videos. He is also well known for co-writting most of his material. So to say he is talentless and had little input in his career is quite unfair. Also when I spoke of other genres I was not implying that MJ had influenced them all, I was rather referring to be all and end all attitude that some people take when discussing the impact of the Beatles and Elvis. |
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#1057 |
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Elvis and the Beatles werent the be all and end all. But they did do what no one has done since. There are loads of excellent entertainers out there. Abba were great, so were the Rolling Stones, Alice Cooper, the Eurythmics, Tina Turner, Madonna, Prince, Sting, the list of greats is long and MJ earnt his place amongst them, i appreciate that, but was he the best? Not to me, no.
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#1058 |
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Elvis and the Beatles werent the be all and end all. But they did do what no one has done since. There are loads of excellent entertainers out there. Abba were great, so were the Rolling Stones, Alice Cooper, the Eurythmics, Tina Turner, Madonna, Prince, Sting, the list of greats is long and MJ earnt his place amongst them, i appreciate that, but was he the best? Not to me, no.
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#1059 |
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I've seen a lot of MJ's concert DVD's and he did a fair amount of dancing in those. He also attempted to sing live in the majority of the songs, although he didn't sound too great on those with a lot of dance routines.
MJ was credited with producing and choreographing some of his music videos. For example he is credited with writing the screen play and producing and chereographing the thriller video, which is probably one of his most iconic videos. He is also well known for co-writting most of his material. So to say he is talentless and had little input in his career is quite unfair. Also when I spoke of other genres I was not implying that MJ had influenced them all, I was rather referring to be all and end all attitude that some people take when discussing the impact of the Beatles and Elvis. so that iconic video you refer to is a perfect example of MJ not being groundbreaking in the slightest and just copying stuff or take the beat it or bad videos that copy west side story. the entire dance routines involving multiple dancers doing the same moves is taken from movies going back 60 years before thriller |
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#1060 |
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the thriller dance routine is the exact same dance routine used in the shake your tailfeather sequence in the blues brothers movie that was directed by the same guy who directed the thriller video who was the same guy who directed the american werewolf in london movie that was also copied in the thriller video
so that iconic video you refer to is a perfect example of MJ not being groundbreaking in the slightest and just copying stuff or take the beat it or bad videos that copy west side story. the entire dance routines involving multiple dancers doing the same moves is taken from movies going back 60 years before thriller |
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#1061 |
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Well can you proof it!
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#1062 |
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Micheal was a very good dancer but after his Off the wall album his music was not a patch on his early stuff. And if it wasn't for the brilliant video for Thriller the single wouldn't be so well thought of.
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#1063 |
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Micheal was a very good dancer but after his Off the wall album his music was not a patch on his early stuff. And if it wasn't for the brilliant video for Thriller the single wouldn't be so well thought of.
so hats off the the promoters, who somehow have elevated this publicity stunt into the annals of music, claiming its position as 'the most popular', when in reality there are hundereds of lesser known vids that DID cut new ground. |
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#1064 |
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Well can you proof it!
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#1065 |
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Well can you proof it!
blues brothers movie 1980 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdbrIrFxas0 shake your tailfeather routine from that movie, which you can buy on dvd, bluray or vhs, even betamax from amazon or play or hmv etc http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082010/ an american werewolf in london from 1981. also directed by john landis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFLQS12z8K4 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088263/ thriller, 1983 by john landis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG6oy46qKE4 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055614/ west side story 1961 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8R9GiLImSw that's just a small part of the video. look familiar? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdxUFDoQe0 beat it video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsUXAEzaC3Q now, this is a clip from 1936 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qRxdIFszAk this is from 1932 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC5Mx...eature=related so that clip is 51 years older than the thriller video. that's the same number of years MJ was alive now these things may be new to you, but this is just common knowledge to many people. people who grew up seeing these things on tv or in cinemas, or hearing the music on radio knew there was nothing new or exciting about his music or videos as it had all been done before as i've mentioned before a few times, the reason MJ fans think this stuff is so exciting, and why they bang on and on about it is simply because they don't know enough about music, they haven't experienced enough, and once they come across MJ they are reluctant to delve deeper and find out what motivated and influenced his music on the other hand, fans of other artists are usually the opposite and will delve deep to discover the influences of the artists they like in order to get a better understanding of their work, and to discover and enjoy more music and movies and books etc. that's what real fans of music normally do, instead of simply blindly worshipping the artist and looking no further, and that's why MJ fans get a verbal hammering on forums when they start spouting nonsense as it just makes them look like uneducated unknowledgeable idiots. it's one thing to enjoy the work, but it's another to make the assumption it's the greatest without checking out the competition fully, as that's when you discover he was far from original or great |
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#1066 |
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080455/
blues brothers movie 1980 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdbrIrFxas0 shake your tailfeather routine from that movie, which you can buy on dvd, bluray or vhs, even betamax from amazon or play or hmv etc http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082010/ an american werewolf in london from 1981. also directed by john landis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFLQS12z8K4 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088263/ thriller, 1983 by john landis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG6oy46qKE4 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055614/ west side story 1961 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8R9GiLImSw that's just a small part of the video. look familiar? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdxUFDoQe0 beat it video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsUXAEzaC3Q now, this is a clip from 1936 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qRxdIFszAk this is from 1932 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC5Mx...eature=related so that clip is 51 years older than the thriller video. that's the same number of years MJ was alive now these things may be new to you, but this is just common knowledge to many people. people who grew up seeing these things on tv or in cinemas, or hearing the music on radio knew there was nothing new or exciting about his music or videos as it had all been done before as i've mentioned before a few times, the reason MJ fans think this stuff is so exciting, and why they bang on and on about it is simply because they don't know enough about music, they haven't experienced enough, and once they come across MJ they are reluctant to delve deeper and find out what motivated and influenced his music on the other hand, fans of other artists are usually the opposite and will delve deep to discover the influences of the artists they like in order to get a better understanding of their work, and to discover and enjoy more music and movies and books etc. that's what real fans of music normally do, instead of simply blindly worshipping the artist and looking no further, and that's why MJ fans get a verbal hammering on forums when they start spouting nonsense as it just makes them look like uneducated unknowledgeable idiots. it's one thing to enjoy the work, but it's another to make the assumption it's the greatest without checking out the competition fully, as that's when you discover he was far from original or great No doubt MJ was a great dancer but the greatest dancer ever? One look at the work of the brilliant Fred Astaire will tell you otherwise. You make total sense with your post. However, most MJ fans won't look at these clips. It proves though that nothing is really totally new. Music and dance evolves through time and everyone is influenced in some way by what has gone before. Great post.
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#1067 |
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080455/
blues brothers movie 1980 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdbrIrFxas0 shake your tailfeather routine from that movie, which you can buy on dvd, bluray or vhs, even betamax from amazon or play or hmv etc http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082010/ an american werewolf in london from 1981. also directed by john landis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFLQS12z8K4 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088263/ thriller, 1983 by john landis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG6oy46qKE4 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055614/ west side story 1961 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8R9GiLImSw that's just a small part of the video. look familiar? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdxUFDoQe0 beat it video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsUXAEzaC3Q now, this is a clip from 1936 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qRxdIFszAk this is from 1932 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC5Mx...eature=related so that clip is 51 years older than the thriller video. that's the same number of years MJ was alive now these things may be new to you, but this is just common knowledge to many people. people who grew up seeing these things on tv or in cinemas, or hearing the music on radio knew there was nothing new or exciting about his music or videos as it had all been done before as i've mentioned before a few times, the reason MJ fans think this stuff is so exciting, and why they bang on and on about it is simply because they don't know enough about music, they haven't experienced enough, and once they come across MJ they are reluctant to delve deeper and find out what motivated and influenced his music on the other hand, fans of other artists are usually the opposite and will delve deep to discover the influences of the artists they like in order to get a better understanding of their work, and to discover and enjoy more music and movies and books etc. that's what real fans of music normally do, instead of simply blindly worshipping the artist and looking no further, and that's why MJ fans get a verbal hammering on forums when they start spouting nonsense as it just makes them look like uneducated unknowledgeable idiots. it's one thing to enjoy the work, but it's another to make the assumption it's the greatest without checking out the competition fully, as that's when you discover he was far from original or great I haven't watched your links yet as I am quite busy this weekend. I'm not an obsessive MJ fan but thanks for posting them, I will watch them and see what I think afterwards. |
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#1068 |
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simple question simple answer. no.
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#1069 |
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Not really. There is no crime in not knowing something, we can't know everything. The point is, what do you do when you are presented with new information? You should read it and then see if it changes the opinions and beliefs you already hold. If it doesn't you are aware of the new data and can then defend your opinion by saying why you believe that the new data is not relevant.
I haven't watched your links yet as I am quite busy this weekend. I'm not an obsessive MJ fan but thanks for posting them, I will watch them and see what I think afterwards. MJ was at the top of his game 30 years ago, so his fans have had several decades to experience other music in relation to his, but still today some won't have done that btw the clips are just short 5 min sequences, you can just flick through them to see instantly the strong influences |
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#1070 |
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I don't think MJ ever presented himself as a songwriter or innovator(but other souces say he was interested in songwriting and had input in videos etc) his interest was primary in the entertainment aspect of showbusiness, in how members of public enjoyed the act and let them lose their own troubles for a while, that is why i say he may be best entertainer ever?
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#1071 |
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I don't think MJ ever presented himself as a songwriter or innovator(but other souces say he was interested in songwriting and had input in videos etc) his interest was primary in the entertainment aspect of showbusiness, in how members of public enjoyed the act and let them lose their own troubles for a while, that is why i say he may be best entertainer ever?
But I would point out that if you were to base being an entertainer on enjoyment of the act and not caring about troubles, I would argue that there are many people in different industries who did/do that better than he did; Marilyn, Frank, Madonna (mostly due to how they get/got people talking - and much more than MJ too). |
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#1072 |
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Honey, if that's all you were looking for, that's fine. Some MJ fans, however, made him out to be this unmatched talent, bigger and better than everyone else. In terms of entertainment in how you referenced it, that would be completely subjective and free of any fact, as it is how much enjoyment you take from something.
But I would point out that if you were to base being an entertainer on enjoyment of the act and not caring about troubles, I would argue that there are many people in different industries who did/do that better than he did; Marilyn, Frank, Madonna (mostly due to how they get/got people talking - and much more than MJ too). |
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#1073 |
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But i don't think Michael regarded himself as having 'troubles' like these other artists, he simply liked entertaining if others had issues that was up to them.
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#1074 |
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080455/
blues brothers movie 1980 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdbrIrFxas0 shake your tailfeather routine from that movie, which you can buy on dvd, bluray or vhs, even betamax from amazon or play or hmv etc http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082010/ an american werewolf in london from 1981. also directed by john landis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFLQS12z8K4 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088263/ thriller, 1983 by john landis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG6oy46qKE4 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055614/ west side story 1961 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8R9GiLImSw that's just a small part of the video. look familiar? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdxUFDoQe0 beat it video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsUXAEzaC3Q now, this is a clip from 1936 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qRxdIFszAk this is from 1932 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC5Mx...eature=related so that clip is 51 years older than the thriller video. that's the same number of years MJ was alive now these things may be new to you, but this is just common knowledge to many people. people who grew up seeing these things on tv or in cinemas, or hearing the music on radio knew there was nothing new or exciting about his music or videos as it had all been done before as i've mentioned before a few times, the reason MJ fans think this stuff is so exciting, and why they bang on and on about it is simply because they don't know enough about music, they haven't experienced enough, and once they come across MJ they are reluctant to delve deeper and find out what motivated and influenced his music on the other hand, fans of other artists are usually the opposite and will delve deep to discover the influences of the artists they like in order to get a better understanding of their work, and to discover and enjoy more music and movies and books etc. that's what real fans of music normally do, instead of simply blindly worshipping the artist and looking no further, and that's why MJ fans get a verbal hammering on forums when they start spouting nonsense as it just makes them look like uneducated unknowledgeable idiots. it's one thing to enjoy the work, but it's another to make the assumption it's the greatest without checking out the competition fully, as that's when you discover he was far from original or great it may have sold the most, but all that proves is that alot of people dont have a very deep understanding of the evolution of music and the music vid. |
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#1075 |
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there is no crime in not knowing anything. that's not the point, which is that MJ fans will argue the toss about things they simply don't know about and don't understand and refuse to delve deeper and find out the truth.
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