Have I got the meaning of this phrase wrong? After the Fatima/Mark bust up shown last night, Antony labelled Fatima passive-aggressive, and many people on here seem to agree. Can't say i saw it myself.

I rather thought that Mark delivered a masterclass in passive- aggression (or at least what I understand that phrase to mean). He wound Fatima up in the game and she reacted poorly, and all the camp mates saw that poor reaction.

Next, Fatima approaches Mark to speak without their mics on, and this they do. As far as I'm aware nobody but the 2 of them knows exactly what was said, and how, during that convo.......

Skip to Mark revealing to a shocked Antony and Lorraine, 'I thought she wanted to clear the air....but she had a go' (Not verbatim, but that was the jist). Antony and Lorraine, who had seen her earlier poor reaction, react and now are inclined to think ill of her.

Next, lots of bits of convos where Fatima appears to be being unreasonable to all 3 of them. Could this perhaps be due to them treating her negatively? Didn't Chrissy say she felt a bit sorry for her?

I dunno, but maybe Mark is not as thick as he seems, and had spotted her as possible competion. Or maybe he just didn't like the way she saw thro' his faux 'team building' speech that morning.

Thoughts?

She was out of order, simple as that. I'm not a Mark fan but she made herself look silly over a supposedly fun game.

Lets not forget that we are watching a very heavily edited programme and what we saw wasn't necessarily quite what happened.

Also Mark has great insight to RTV and I doubt that Fatima does.

For those reasons I am uncomfortable about totally condemning Fatima.

This isn't abour rights and wrongs, it's about the phrase and intepretations of what it means.

She was straightforwardly aggressive IMO

Mark was possibly passive-aggressive in subtly winding her up but you really couldn't tell from the edit

She was also aggressive to Lorraine too

Agree. Think Fatima has seen through Mark's soundbites. He's used to playing to cameras in reality tv situations and she isn't. Thought Anthony fanned the flames around the situation, in a negative way, as well.

Sure, editing on these shows can sometimes be misleading. And as Tortue has said, I think she was at the very least straightforwardly (very outwadly agrresive) rather than passive as such.

Its just a new buzz word that people like to use for a wide spectrum of behaviour.

I hear ya mate.

I also doubt that too many people actually know what passive/aggressive means.

See BIB, that is why am wondering if my understanding of this phrase is incorrect. From the edit you could tell that Mark reported to the others that she had been 'mean' to him, when he had thought she was going to be 'nice' to him. From previous events they were already, maybe, a bit inclined to think ill of her -and he capitalised on this.

He didn't need to be aggressive himself, he got others to react negatively to her (and, I thought, Antony to be fairly verbally aggressive about her). That's what i thought passive- aggressive meant- getting others to do your dirty work for you.

Asking Mark to turn his microphone off as they have a quiet word with each other to sort things is not passive-aggressive. Not by any definition of the word.

Saying "He made a game up for us to play which was a lovely thing to do for us, and then she goes and does that"....Now that's passive-aggressive.

A heavy bit of projection going on there.

It sounds like Antony's just learnt about the word quite recently and that's why he was wearing it out in one show.

Mark behaved in the same manipulative, back stabbing, wind up manner in TOWIE. He has perfected the art until Lauren Goodger didn't know if she was coming or going!! He is VERY media savvy but I suspect he will struggle to keep up the front with those other than his Essex cohorts and subservients around him. There are some strong, intelligent people in the jungle and he's used to being king of the castle.

In my experience, the people who loudly label other people passive agressive the most...are passive agressive people themselves!

I don't know what that says about Anthony

My take on passive aggressive is that it means having a go at someone without being obviously aggressive.

Like trying to wind them up (as Mark possibly was with Fatima) or making a subtle dig that isn't obvious to others

I suspect we've all been a victim or such subtle power play at some point. It doesn't feel nice and its hard to counter as the aggressor often will pretend to be joking or say your just being touchy if you complain

Notice how he said that he couldn't divulge exactly what had been said as it was a private conversation, yet he told them that she was being bad to him?

Nice way of pointing the finger at somebody without even having to provide any evidence of what you're accusing them of.

If it was a private conversation then you should have the integrity not to go and make negative implications about what was said to other people.

Thoughts?
Well my thought is this.......In the beginning Fatima was in the right IMO but towards the very end she needed to give it all a rest but she couldn't, she physically couldn't.
Shes gonna have to learn to stop sweating the little stuff cos there will be lots of little niggles in there and she just needs to smile, let it go over her head.
Also I read somewhere that she has only spent 24 hours apart from her son in his whole life, he's 13, that must be incredibly difficult for her and might answer why shes so tetchy.

I think this is why it's a good idea to question how others perceive a particular phrase.

To me, passive-aggressive means making somebody else feel bad about your wrong-doing. Not very different, but subtly so, to your definition and all the others.

My example would be that i would be having a discussion with somebody, maybe telling them how something they had done had upset me, and they suddenly start to cry or dab their eyes and tremble their lip (you know, that 'stage' crying some peope are fantastic at). It's very effective in displacing all the negativity away from the person crying. How can the other person continue the conversation? It appears to others that the first person has touched on a sore spot or been heavy-handed which is what the crying person wants.

So to me, it is a form of deflection but it also makes the person it is aimed at feel bad.

(I also don't think Fatima was being passive-aggressive but laughed a lot when Anthony said that and she replied something along the lines of 'well, it's you making me that way' )

I've noticed that, too. It's overused by many people these days.

There's a list of signs and symptoms on Wikipedia that may help identify passive–aggressive behaviour:

Ambiguity or speaking cryptically: a means of creating a feeling of insecurity in others or of disguising one's own insecurities.

Chronically being late and forgetting things: another way to exert control or to punish.

Fear of competition

Fear of dependency

Fear of intimacy as a means to act out anger: The passive–aggressive often cannot trust. Because of this, they guard themselves against becoming intimately attached to someone.

Making chaotic situations

Making excuses for non-performance in work teams

Obstructionism

Procrastination

Sulking

Victimization response: instead of recognizing one's own weaknesses, tendency to blame others for own failures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive...ssive_behavior

I agree with your example. That's also a form of passive aggression where the supposed victim is trying to make the other person look/feel bad for upsetting them.

As you say its a term that can be applied quite broadly

I agree Fatima isn't passive aggressive whereas Anthony who accused her certainly seems to be

This also seemed to indicate that there had been far more to the incident than we, the viewers, knew about.

I agree. The phrase is very much over used on this forum. Mark is the one being passive aggressive - he masks his aggression with jokey chat or wind up lines - Fatima reacted angrily, I don't think she was particularly aggressive. She didn't try to hide it under a joke or a smile, she just let him have it.

Passive aggression is covert, hidden aggression.

To me it means a devious way of bullying so that it doesn't quite look like bullying...............and Fatima looks like an expert!

Agreed, and there was nothing passive in her aggression either

The only thing mote annoying than a passive aggressive is someone that doesn't really understand what it means using the word in a passive aggresive manner against someone they don't like.