and thje replay the following Wednesday week although with City putting 5 pass Utd last month, it could all be over by 5.30

So, in fact, IIUYC, the difference comes down to the answer to this question:

"Are the commercial channel ratings primarily for us as viewers, or for the advertisers?"

K

oh you know the answer already

PS you could ask the same about BARB numbers?

Indeed, except the "officials" strip out the adbreaks, so are just the programme averages. Presumably, the advertisers can obtain the "widdershins" figures ... (I would love to see those regularly reported!)

K

Shortly all the main terrestrial channels aside from the BBC will have a timeshift channel as do many further down the EPG. The televisual landscape is being transformed whereby an additional timeshift channel becomes the norm.

It then becomes possible to argue that the BBC's timeshift audience is artifically inflated by the absence of such a facility when reporting ratings elsewhere without the inclusion of the +1.

Don't disagree with how BARB decide to measure the audiences. However, in terms of discussing the succcess or decline of a programme on here, I can't see how you can argue that they aren't a relevant measure.

Anyway, from January for all this year-on-year, like for like fair analysis I hope we can look forward to regular comparisons for the ITV +1 channel as well as ITV1.

It does seem to be the first global format hit for quite a while. Although rather depressing in some ways that it's another talent show rather than something that suggests what the next big trend is going to be.

Endemol's latest format to hawk around the world is "Canada Sings",


Fremantle Media have sold "Total Blackout" in the US but only to Syfy rather than a broadcast network. It's originally a Japanese format;


ITV have The Exit List which filmed a pilot with ABC in September.

Secret Fortune (that BBC1 lottery show) was taken to the US by Nigel Lythgoe. CBS ordered a pilot and Donny Osmond was attached but there has been no word on it for a few months and The Futon Critic lists it as "previously in development".

Simon Fuller does have another project which has been greenlit but it's basically American Idol in Spanish with Jennifer Lopez and her ex husband as judges. It's airing on Univision in the US (who I think usually just do soaps?) and has been sold in a couple of Latin American countries.

For subscribers, BARB-reported bureauxs actually do give the option to automatically include +1 with the parent channel. So just like HD, although BARB may report those channels separately on their website, subscribers of BARB's data bureauxs have data available to them which do automatically include +1/HD.


One thing you need to consider though is that a +1 channel being in place means that the parent channel (ITV1 in this case) doesn't rate as well as they would do if the +1 channel wasn't in place - the parent channel's figures are depressed as viewers are given an extra option to miss the original showing. Let me give you last night as an example: if ITV1+1 didn't exist, do you really honestly believe that TXF would've still had 10.26m? I very much doubt it would've been the same, it would've rated higher. Many of those +1ers last night, if ITV1+1 wasn't available, would've watched TXF either live or via timeshift later in the day and been included in the ITV1 overnights and it probably would've been ahead of SCD's 10.33m. ITV1+1 (as with all +1 channels) give viewers who may have watched the original broadcast an alternative option to watch later on and in many cases this can depress the 'original showing' rating. So whilst people may say including +1 inflates the figures, the way I see it: including +1 inflates the ratings in relation to parent channel figures which are depressed, so it somewhat balances out. And of course, let's not forget, one of the beneficiaries of ITV1+1 being in existence is BBC1 because viewers who are 50/50 about watching a show on BBC1 or ITV1 at the same time are now probably slightly more likely to watch the BBC1 show 'live' compared to a year ago as they know they can definitely catch the ITV1 show one hour later on the timeshift channel - that no doubt boosts the BBC1 ratings ever so slightly. You're obviously happy to accept Merlin had 5.66m last night - but would it have necessarily got 5.66m if ITV1 +1 wasn't in place? It's possible about 100k of those Merlin viewers last night were potentially XF viewers who would've watched XF live had ITV1+1 wasn't in place. So Merlin might've benefited from ITV1+1's existance and BBC1's figures could be "inflated" slightly.

Incidentally, if BBC1+1 was in existance, I would happily lump in their figures, just like how I've been lumping in C4+1's figures for years (you can have a look at the BB Ratings Thread for examples), ITV1+1's for the last year and how I shall look at the C5+1-included figures when it launches next week. For me, it's not a matter of being biased to try and inflate a programme's ratings, but it's a matter of common sense: overnights are Live + Same Day so I personally don't see much difference in including same-day timeshift viewers of this method, and this is what ultimately broadcasters, advertisers, the producers, cast and crew working on TV shows look at to judge the success of a series and decisions on recommissioning etc.

Not a vintage night for the big three entertainment shows - just looking back at last year in the thread and we were busy putting our eyes back in their sockets. Not so this time round. Strictly down 14%, IAC down 20% and XF down 22% year-on-year by my sketchy calculations (inc +1...). Still, they were all pitted against incredibly tough comparative numbers.

XF has been down like this since the live stages started, but Strictly and IAC seem to have drifted somewhat towards the end of their runs. Not sure about IAC, but it's probably relevant that SCD only lost Widdecombe this week a year ago. Russell Grant leaving at the Wembley spectacular does seem to have induced a bit of a hangover. Last year it actually fell back from 12m for this week's equivalent to 10.6m for the semi final - so the current series has a chance to close the gap back up again.

Yeah, the last format to really make an impact like this worldwide was probably Got Talent about 4 or 5 years ago. Considering the success it's had in quite a few countries in the last 12 months, to me it seems like it's the format which is the winner, and as long as they have reasonable judges on it, it should do well - similar to the Come Dancing and Got Talent formats. Jessie J has pretty much confirmed in an article today that the lineup for The Voice UK is: her, Will i.am, Tom Jones, Will Young. That's a solid enough judging lineup which covers most bases: her and Will i.am will pull in the younger crowd, Tom Jones will bring in the older viewers and Will Young will help pull in the housewives. It was important they got the older judge on the panel as otherwise it did seem like quite a young-skewing judging lineup which wouldn't have been good for a BBC1 Saturday night show. In terms of press coverage, which is really important for a show like this, the BBC has played it well so far, by ensuring it's been reported about well in advance of launch (6-8 months). Also even though they've (apparently) signed up the 4 judges already, they're announcing the names in staggered press statements to ensure the show is in the headlines as much as possible - good stuff there; better to do it this way rather than announce all 4 names at the same time. Competition for the series is looking quite easy too as apparently Ant & Dec's Saturday Night Takeaway, which we all thought was possible competition against it, isn't even going to air next year! The only slight negative I have is that the second half of the series will air around the same time as BGT, and that means the press coverage for The Voice will be limited whilst column inches are focussed on BGT. That's not the best position to be in, especially considering that in Q1 it could've mopped up a lot of the tabloid coverage, but hopefully for it it'll have managed to get a big committed audience in the first few weeks in March before BGT even launches.


I'm not really sure this would work here. The whole "Glee" type groups thing has been tried out a couple of times previously to mixed success. Don't Stop Believing obviously was a big flop. Last Choir Standing a few years ago did alright IIRC and probably could count itself a bit unlucky not to get another series, but I don't think a show like this translates as well in the UK as other countries like the US or Canada. And like you've said, that's yet another singing talent show!

You see, what I said was....


...if the BBC promoted it (seeing as how it's the last episode before a short break) and when I talk of a boost to Casualty and a dent for X Factor I'm talking tens of thousands rather than millions.

My anorak figures show X Factor Final Saturday averaged 13m in the overnights (taken from Broadcast. Not sure if it includes HD). Wouldn't expect it to do as well this year. Casualty had 4.17m in the overnights so if this year it has a big story and a 5m lead-in from Merlin, and that big story gets trailed, maybe it could climb up to 5m.

Some good sensible debate about +1 channels in the last few posts.

Although I can't see it happening, what happens if in 5 or 10 years from now, +1 channels grow to such an extent that they rate not much less than the normal channel? Some people would want to exclude 50% of the audience in their analysis!

Rzt what do you mean Ant & Dec's Saturday Night Takeaway isn't airing this year. I thought it had been comfirmed it was?

This probably took you some time to type so can I just say that this is the perfect summary of the slightly complicated +1 situation.

Dec was on the Chris Moyles Show 1-2 weeks ago and he pretty much said that Saturday Night Takeaway wouldn't be back until 2013. The ITV press release about Ant & Dec renewing their contract didn't specifically say SNT would be back in 2012.

You can listen to Dec saying it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXmd3...layer_embedded (about 4 mins in).


Thanks . Yeah, bloody annoying those +1 channels. Ratings used to be so much easier 5 years ago without HD and +1 channels !

Problem is, rzt, much as I can see a logic behind what you argue, the fact is it is pure conjecture because you just don't know. None of us do.

Yes, it seems logical to say that if viewers know they can watch a competing ITV1 show an hour later on ITV1+1 they might favour the BBC1 show, whereas they'd have had to make a choice without the +1 channel existing (ignoring the fact most people have access to a VCR or PVR).

But you can't demonstrably prove this.

For me, the still small numbers the +1 channels get suggest to me that only a tiny, tiny proportion of the population uses them as a timeshifting facility. My competing conjecture (to balance out yours) is that 99% of +1 viewing is by people casually flicking around and finding something to watch on one of them which they weren't watching earlier.

If I have a programme clash, I'll just watch one and record the other. Whenever I watch a +1 it's because I happened to flick around and find something I wasn't going to watch anyway.

So I do think it's fine to have +1s and report their ratings for what they are. But not to automatically inflate the parent channel's first look broadcast by surreptitiously adding a repeat showing on another channel.

You're right, we don't know, but it will mainly depend on what programme it is.

If it's something like QI on Dave Ja Vu or One Foot In The Grave on Gold+1 then the chances are most viewers are just looking for something to watch at that time and wouldn't have bothered watching the programme if the +1 channel didn't exist.

But with something like X Factor, this is a programme most of its viewers want to watch rather than just tune in if there's nothing better to see. So if +1 didn't exist the likelihood is that the majority of +1 viewers would make extra effort to watch or record the original screening. And if they recorded at 8 and watched at 9 then they'd be included in the overnights.

I think obviously there is an element of people casually flicking onto a +1 channel and watching a programme they may not have necessarily planned to watch on the parent channel. But that 99% figure is somewhat of an exaggeration, and you know it !

It probably varies a lot - for digital +1 channels which show repeats most/all the time, I suspect there's a much higher % of casual viewers watching a show on +1 who wouldn't have watched the parent channel broadcast than compared to a terrestrial +1 channel which is showing original new programmes which people actually seek out to watch. Like I've said before, how many people really would randomly stumble across to channel 33 on Freeview or 131 on Sky at 10pm for example and suddenly out of the blue decide that that they want to watch a 60 or 90 minute episode of I'm a Celebrity or The X Factor if they've not seen any previous episode in the series or had no intention of watching the original broadcast an hour earlier? I really think it would be a low % and that the majority of those +1 viewers are genuine fans of the show who, if the +1 channel wasn't available, would've watched those episodes via another method (live or record and watch later in the same day) and been included in the overnights that way. Okay, I don't have anyway of finding concrete proof of that, but then as you say, for your argument there is no concrete proof. And that's why the whole debate is a grey area. I just find it interesting that all this complaining has come this year even though last year we used to post overnights every Tuesday and Thursday which had C4+1-included figures, but we never heard any complaint from you then! Say for example one day, BBC1 decides to have a +1 channel, would you change your mind and say it's okay for +1 viewers to be included or keep your opinion the same and complain everytime the +1-included overnights are posted that they're inaccurate, inflated etc? Incidentally, I think comparing two programmes on different channels head to head, it's fair to strip out the +1 audience to know who directly 'won' (even then though the overnights technically aren't even head to head as they include SD). But I think if someone wants to know how many people watched a certain programme on a certain day, it's okay to include the +1 audience.

TBH, I think it's worth discounting last year's ratings in regards to making a comparison as Britain was hit by a snowstorm this time last year which would've artificially inflated every figure. Saying that, ITV1 asked for that I'm A Celebrity...figure; they must've known before scheduling it that The X Factor Saturday lead in would be compartively low next to the Sunday figure.

Strictly Come Dancing really lost Russell a couple if not three weeks to early - they could have afforded to ditch Alex, Robbie and possibly Jason/Holly before left. I think if he had stayed then the ratings would be above The X Factor's now.

In the same breath, if The X Factor had kept hold of Kitty for a couple more weeks I think the ratings would be slightly higher as well considering she was at least entertaining. Everyone else is pretty expendable, bar maybe Little Mix as having a group winning would be a decent ending to a poor series.

Casualty seemed to be hurt by BBC Two were 100 Years Of The Palladium pulled in an excellent figure. Merlin did well again for BBC One; Taken strolled over the 1m mark for Channel 4 while Channel 5 had a quite night; the Audience With repeats don't seem to be overly successful. I'm A Celebrity...Now! recorded a great rating for ITV2.

It's very strange that we had no arguments for ages while Channel 4 had a +1 channel but as soon as ITV1 got one...

I think I did express my irritation at C4 + C4+1 figures being reported as one. But it seemed trivial to make an issue out of something that mattered little - an extra 50k watching on +1 a show that got 1m in its first showing is not exactly a game changer.

But when you're talking about say 0.5m on a 9.5m rated programme, which you are measuring against a 10m audience on another channel without a +1 service, and it becomes more of an issue.

But all the only viewers +1 count are ones that watch the show before the 2am cut off time for overnight data - just like iplayer for the BBC; ITV Player etc; timeshift services. If you use the argument 'they wouldn't normally watch' it - the same may count for people bored for something to do and looking for something to watch online, or who just put BBC One/ITV1 on as default so I don't think that can be argued as a reason for not including the figures.

Robbie, you won't want to look at Broadcast and Media Guardian's end of year Top 10/100 ratings charts when they're published. From what I've seen, Broadcast tends to include +1 in their end-of-week and end-of-year ratings charts and MG have tended to include +1 in their end-of-year charts too!

I think I can safely say that if Downton Abbey beats BBC1 by 1000 viewers on Xmas Night including ITV1 +1 - there will be enough arguments here on Boxing Day to last until New Year's Eve.

I personally believe overnights should include live viewers only - (not even people with PVRs) - and officials ought include 7 day timeshifts - ratings before +1 were a lot more accurately portrayed. If we are including +1 channels - then we ought include repeat showings like Eastenders on the same evening. We are not comparing channels here - we are comparing programmes and their ratings.


ITV1+1 is pretty small fry, however it does have quite large reach figure - almost double the HD reach, but the HD share is 50% higher than the +1 share. I think it is fair to say that almost one in four ITV1 viewers use ITV1+1 as a timeshift service. Using some rudimentary arithmetic, the average viewer who uses & watches ITV1+1 will watch for 1hr 2mins per week. Whereas the average viewer who uses & watches ITV1 HD will watch for 3hrs 18mins per week.

and this is where it gets tricky. Of course there is strong evidence to suggest that people watch the BBC 3 repeat when something else they want to watch is on ITV 1 at the same time, but BBC 3 is not BBC 1+2.

When asking how many people watched X-Factor or Corrie, I believe it is right to count +1, but they should be reported separately.

They are not Welsh, either.