Hi,

My rat rat Poppy has got a large tumour sort of in her armpit and down her side. Vet said inoperable really as she would most likely not survive surgery and even if she did recovery would be tough and it would grow back anyway swo it would be kinder not to put her through it.

The lump was the size of a small grape when took her to the vet (i hadn't noticed it sooner cos she's quite a fat girl). That was mid Aug, now -three months later- it has increased in size quite markedly perhaps six or seven times the size it was when i first spotted it.

It interferes with her movement somewhat as you can imagine but she does not seem distressed by it. She is still full of life and comes running when i call her name. Still enjoying her food etc. Due to it's location the underside of the lump is rubbing against the floor when she moves and as results she now has a small bald patch and a weird mark whick I fear may be the start of her skin starting to break down. If she ends up with an open wound I suppose I'll have to PTS but it seems wrong when she is so full of life otherwise.

I wish I'd gone for the op back when it was a small lump now, there's def no way she'd survive removal of lump the size it is now. I thought by the time the lump got so big I'd see a difference in her and she would seem unhappy but she doesnt. If I have to PTS before she seems in pain etc, I'll feel so guilty

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to give a full picture.

Thanks

PS She's 2 and a half years old

i had a mouse with the same problem, only the lump was above her shoulder, it started growing a few days after she'd had a litter of babies. she lived for another 4-5 weeks afterwards but it grew steadily in that time.
i put her down as one day she just didn't seem herself and i thought enough was enough.

by the end this lump had gotten as big as another mouse on her side and it was hindering her movement, but she seemed happy enough, there was a big bald patch on it and the skin seemed really stressed, there was a small scabbed like area on it, i was really worried the skin would just give up one day. thankfully it didn't.
but that one day, she was sitting hunched up in the corner and i knew it was time
i gassed her myself at home so there was no question about it, it was done as soon as i thought she wasn't well, didn't want her to carry on in discomfort.

i was the same though, if the skin ended up with an open wound, i would have put her to sleep there and then.

it's really sad and i hope you can figure out what is best for her
if she's still happy, you're not being cruel by carrying on. but if her skin breaks, i would say it is time.
in a way it would be better to let her go before she knows a life of pain and discomfort
it's a really tough decision to have to make.

I wouldn't PTS if she's happy.

Awww wow, there's good news and bad news. Poppy, if she still seems happy, let her, she will know when she wants to die and will become less mobile, and less able to eat etc. 2 and a half years is a really good age for rats, most don't last much after 2,
Make sure she is happy and has her favourite food, which I would imagine you do anyway, No need to have her PTS, fortunately, and unfortunately, she will decide. x

Just as an aside, is she an albino? That's what my lovely rats were, one of mine got a tumour, was happy running about and then one day didn't even eat her chocolate biscuit, went under a chair and died. I was distraught, but it was her time. She was just over 2 years old and outlived her sisters.

If she seems happy then leave her but the problem here is that it is having secondary affects and affecting her skin. If it can't be operated on and is going to cause her discomfort then it may be best to PTS. But we can't really tell you on here. You will have to make that judgement call for yourself. I don't think you want to make the decision and feeling guilty about it. I would too. It sounds at the minute though that it can be left and see how she goes.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply. I'm giving her all her favourite treats don't worry about that. Poblet - no she's not albino, she's white and grey. I know it's best to just sort of let her tell me wen enough is enough but i think the skin will break down before she's had enough and I'll have to put her to sleep anyway. Another complicating factor is that I'm getting married in Jan and going away for a week and I really don't want to leave her with someone else and put them in that awful position should she deteriorate.

Xdow - you gassed your mouse yourself?!

i did, with a bicarbonate of soda & vinegar mix

there are actually guides as to how to do it on the internet
mostly on reptile forums, and with canisters of carbon dioxide, but in a pinch the vinegar mix works well.

she went peacefully, and that's all i could ask for to be honest.

Are you sure this is actually legal?

Yes.
considering the same method is used to despatch snake/reptile feed and you don't need a licence to breed your own.
obviously you're still bound by the 5 freedoms, to provide them with proper care and attention until such a time as they need to be humanely put to an end.

you're actually only breaking the law if you breed the mice and feed them to your reptiles whilst still alive, if you pre-kill them though, you're completely within the law, as is my understanding of the matter.

its basically no different to going out and buying a mouse or rat trap to kill vermin
that's all perfectly legal, and a lot less humane than a properly operated gas chamber set up.

Sorry but the gas chamber set up makes me think ot Auschtwitz and Treblinka, etc. Bicarbonate of soda and vinegar make carbon dioxide. How is effectively suffocating your animals humane? You may as well but them in a plastic bag and bury them alive

I agree, it doesn't sound very humane to me.

you need to look into it further.
this isn't really the correct thread to bring this up in (sorry OP)

but to clarify, vets often use the same set up (as the alternative for rats is (or used to be at least) a painful injection directly into the heart or abdomen) they also use gas chambers in laboratories.
most people use a carbon dioxide canister and regulator - i didn't have these on hand, so researched EXACTLY the quantities of each substance i needed to mix in order to properly euthanise my mouse before going ahead.


the correct level of carbon dioxide is carefully monitored and slowly introduced into the chamber - between 7 and 8% has an analgesic effect, so the rodents don't feel any pain.
an increase to around 35% concentration it has an anaesthetic affect, causing them to slip out of conciousness as the higher levels of co2 in the blood causes brain function to slow and parts of the brain begin to shut down. it's not stressful or painful for them, they don't panic at all, it's just as if they're asleep. they're then completely unaware of what is going on around them.
when, and only when they are in this state, the concentration is increased to 80%, this very quickly brings about the animals death, so that they stop breathing completely and never wake up.


the first two steps are incredibly important to follow, as the co2 does irritate the eyes and nose/mouth/windpipe at high concentrations.
this is why the analgesic effect at low levels and then the higher level to send the mouse unconscious is very important.
it doesn't asphyxiate the mice as many people think it does.

placing the animal in a bag as suggested above would be INCREDIBLY traumatic and make for a very, very slow death.

it is true that being placed in a gas chamber does not make for an instant death, it does take a few minutes (usually 1-3 minutes for them to become unconscious, then the 80% concentration is held for 5-10 minutes to be sure the animal has passed away) which is where a lot of people get concerned, thinking that the animal is in there gasping for breath the whole time - but it's simply not true.
it is one of the most humane methods, as you can see from the steps outlined above.

and i can personally vouch that what i have described above is exactly what happens.

I see. The suggestion to put them in a bag was sarcasm on my part. I can't imagine anybody who genuinely cares for their pets would want to do that. As long as it is done properly. I do believe you in the effects.

i realise you weren't being serious, but you'd be surprised how many people think that leaving the mouse in an airtight box or bag would be an effective method to bring about the animals death

a mouse only makes a very small amount of carbon dioxide through respiration, it would take hours, if not days for the level of co2 to rise sufficiently in the box to knock it unconscious - let alone actually kill it.
the mouse would be aware that it was running out of air too, which would be incredibly distressing.

where as with the steps i mentioned earlier, the level of carbon dioxide is raised to an effective level in a very short amount of time (less than 20 seconds) so the effects are almost instant.
the mouse doesn't realise anything has happened, they just become groggy and slip into unconsciousness.

my girl in question just sat still in her bedding in the box that i used, she'd already been allowed to explore it and get comfortable.
she sniffed the air as i squeezed the first of the gas through into the chamber (as it smelled of vinegar)
she then just laid down and passed out. i squeezed through the rest of the gas and she slowly stopped breathing. i left her for 5 minutes after i'd seen her chest stop moving, with the box sealed to be sure she had passed before taking her out to be buried.

it's not a nice thing to do - having to end a life is always hard, even if it is for the right reasons. but it's one of the nicer ways for them to go in my opinion.

I suppose, but I'd hate to think of anyone trying to do this without reading proper information first. It could send out the wrong message I think.

Wow Xdow, thanks for the explaination. It does sound humane when done properly, I won't be trying it though, I'll let the experts do it. Do you breed mice? Just wondering because you seem very experienced.

Do you think the vet will let me stay with her and be the one to put her in the chamber? I don't like to think of the vet taking her off me and her being scared of a stranger in her last moments alive.

I remember when I was a kid I had a mouse who developed a tumour and the vet diagnosed her and put to sleep there and then. It was done with an injection into her underside and seemed to really hurt her (she squeeked loudly and wriggled) I felt so guilty and still do looking back on it. I was too young and inexperienced then to know there was another more humane way to do it. I will defo make sure my new vet does it the humane way. Why on earth would any vet who is meant to care for animlas put any animal through unecessary pain?!

we have always insisted on gas first when having small animals put to sleep. the idea of a needle being shoved into the concious animals chest/stomach makes me feel sick. the needle would hurt something as large as us, so for such a tiny critter having a needle pushed into it like that its barbaric IMO.

i do breed mice, yes
both as pets and as reptile food

the parent mice are my pets, all have names, but the babies either go as pets or as food for the snake i have, as well as my boyfriends snake.

i know it seems strange to have ones i care for and others that are basically there to be dinner for something, but i started to breed my own as i became very unhappy with what the welfare standard of the freeze/thaw mice i was buying from the pet shop must have been - they were often covered in bites & had broken bones. the snakes would often refuse to feed on them.
but the final straw came when i defrosted one with its upper incisors so overgrown that they'd curled around and grown into the roof of its mouth, the lower ones were so long, they pierced the upper lip of this poor mouse - i really didn't want to support that any longer.

the only way i could ensure that the food i was feeding was truly high welfare was to produce my own.
i enjoy raising the mice, they're lovely little creatures, but despatching them is always upsetting, it's not a nice thing to do at all.
however, i know that they have a very good life up until that point comes and i know that their end is quick and painless - something i couldn't guarantee with the ready-frozen shop bought mice.

Hi Xdow, I think that is really admirable of you to put yourself through what must be an upsetting and unpleasant experience in order to ensure the health and happiness of both your mice and your snakes. The condition of the frozen mice makes me shudder, surely there must be welfare standards they sure be adhereing to in those places. Bless the poor little mites x

in the UK breeding farms i believe there are regulations, but a large proportion of the reptile food found in freezers is imported from abroad where welfare laws may be a lot more relaxed.
if you just go into a shop and buy some you've no idea where it's come from, or how long it's been frozen for so you can't be sure that you're giving your snake a good diet. (even asking in the shop may not tell you - i've met many pet shop owners who are less than forthcoming with information)
also if it's been frozen for more than 6 months the nutritional value often drops considerably too.

sorry i didn't reply to your other question,
most vets will allow you to stay with them until the end
and may well insist on the gas first, then injection. but once they're unconscious, they won't be in any pain from the needle. (as kelly82 mentioned)

it may be worth asking your vet first which method they use prior to taking Poppy in, so that you can prepare yourself beforehand

The fact that you breed lots of mice puts it all into context now.

Just wanted to update that I have had Poppy PTS now and it went as OK as it could. Glad I asked first the vet about the method first one. The one i was taking her to said they dont gas first they just inject (or at least the reception bloke did) so I went to a different vet and they were lovely about it.

The vet was shocked at the size of her tumour and said I was def doing the right thing. she put a cotton wool ball soaked in anaesthetic into poppy's carry case and closed. Poppy slowly went to sleep, didn't seem at all distressed and then the vet gave her the injection. It was sad but peaceful and I'm grateful for that.

Stupid thing was after making me go to different vet the original one phoned me back and apologised for the receptionist and said they'd somehow got the wrong end of the stick and they do knock em out first!

Sorry to hear that you have had to put Poppy to sleep but I am sure that you know you have done the right thing for her.
My sympathies to you.
xxxx

bless her, if the vet was shocked then it sounds like you picked the right time to do it

r.i.p Poppy xx
and sorry for your loss Melp

Thanks x