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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 7)
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ACU
30-10-2012
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“You started it.

You started off by suggesting that he is likely to win the WDC without the benefit of having the best car and when I pointed out that it's only the fact that the car HAS BECOME the best car that's allowed him that opportunity you're now saying "I thought that was obvious".

Now, if we were talking about Alonso you'd have a point but Vettel simply hasn't done anything especially noteworthy this year until he got the best car underneath him.

Don't get me wrong; all credit to him and the team for doing the best job possible and then gaining an advantage in the end but it's daft to suggest he's "won the title without the best car" because, as I've shown you, it's only the fact that the car has improved so much that's given him that opportunity.”

You have shown me anything that anything that makes my original statement incorrect. I agree the improved car has given him the opportunity, even improved his chances. However this has not been the case all season. He has not driven a superior car for well over half the season. Which was my original point.

I think we will have to to agree to disagree on this point.


Read this article, and cant help but agree with it. F1 does not appeal to the masses, it only appeals to a very very small minority. A poorer turn out, that I can see dropping year on year. Until it gets to a point, where they will bring people into the circuit for free. Something has happened in other sports in India. The cheapest ticket Rs2000 (£25), is way more than your average man can afford. In comparison you can watch an international one day cricket match for around Rs20~Rs30 (cheapest ticket).

Vijay Mallya has done what he can, to push the sport to the masses. Covered cars in the Indian flag, Indian coloured livery on his transporters, clothes etc. However it doesnt seem its been enough. Is it just a matter of time? Or has F1 come to India too soon? What are others thoughts on the Indian F1?
Si_Crewe
31-10-2012
Originally Posted by ACU:
“Read this article, and cant help but agree with it. F1 does not appeal to the masses, it only appeals to a very very small minority. A poorer turn out, that I can see dropping year on year. Until it gets to a point, where they will bring people into the circuit for free. Something has happened in other sports in India. The cheapest ticket Rs2000 (£25), is way more than your average man can afford. In comparison you can watch an international one day cricket match for around Rs20~Rs30 (cheapest ticket).

Vijay Mallya has done what he can, to push the sport to the masses. Covered cars in the Indian flag, Indian coloured livery on his transporters, clothes etc. However it doesnt seem its been enough. Is it just a matter of time? Or has F1 come to India too soon? What are others thoughts on the Indian F1?”

I think the same is true of almost all races.
The only difference is that I assume indians must be used to sport being more accessible than it is in the west.
I bet your average Brit' footy fan spend a MUCH larger percentage of their disposable income on following their team than the average Indian fan spends watching cricket.

It's fundamentally flawed to compare F1 to something like a cricket match.
It's not something that you go to every week.
If any of the F1 fans I know are anything to judge by, it's something you plan for years ahead, save a little money every week and then attend a single race every 2 or 3 years.

Maybe they are right insofar as prices should be reduced to the point where ticket sales simply cover the costs of the venue and then rely on sponsorship and franchise rights to generate profit but I don't think India has any particular grounds for complaint, any more than any other country does.
Assa2
31-10-2012
The problem isn't that there's no market for F1 in India. There's a huge middle and wealthy upper class in India these days which F1 should, in theory, be attracted to F1. The issue is more that India is very selective about the sports it embraces and motorsport is very young and undeveloped. It is still seen very much as a western sport like football and has no grass roots which would develop the interest in the more elite formulas. I know a lot of Indians and they have zero interest in F1. Bernie cannot rely on a 'build it and they will come' philosophy. In China the stands will always be full because if necessary the authorities will give tickets away for free or simply bus spectators in. India is totally different and F1 probably arrived prematurley. Start at the bottom with karts and other grass roots motorsport and slowly develop it from there. F1 is aspirational but at the moment your average 10 year old in India can't look at F1 and think they could be the next Indian F1 Champion as there's barely been a successful Indian motorsport driver in any formula let alone F1. In 20 years time it may be different.
vinba
31-10-2012
Originally Posted by ACU:
“You have shown me anything that anything that makes my original statement incorrect. I agree the improved car has given him the opportunity, even improved his chances. However this has not been the case all season. He has not driven a superior car for well over half the season. Which was my original point.

I think we will have to to agree to disagree on this point.


Read this article, and cant help but agree with it. F1 does not appeal to the masses, it only appeals to a very very small minority. A poorer turn out, that I can see dropping year on year. Until it gets to a point, where they will bring people into the circuit for free. Something has happened in other sports in India. The cheapest ticket Rs2000 (£25), is way more than your average man can afford. In comparison you can watch an international one day cricket match for around Rs20~Rs30 (cheapest ticket).

Vijay Mallya has done what he can, to push the sport to the masses. Covered cars in the Indian flag, Indian coloured livery on his transporters, clothes etc. However it doesnt seem its been enough. Is it just a matter of time? Or has F1 come to India too soon? What are others thoughts on the Indian F1?”

The ticket prices for the British Grand Prix are outside what the 'common man' can afford here as well!

I thought that the GP was fairly well attended although there seemed to be a lot more people in the grassy areas then the actual stands. Last year there was a smattering of large umbrella's with people under them.

VJM is hardly a poster boy for anything. He should concentrate on paying his employees at Kingfisher and concern himself less with self promotion.

I think the biggest hurdle that it has in India is one word...Cricket. That's where the glamour and money is.

Also there are large pockets of India where football is king.. Goa and West Bengal. Just no real development of the sport, corruption and hence lowly FIFA ranking.
Mark F
31-10-2012
Hulkenberg to Sauber it seems...
ACU
31-10-2012
Some good points raised by you guys. I do agree with Assa2 abut F1 arriving in India prematurely. Whilst the British GP prices are more the average man can afford, the big difference is that the average man in the UK has more disposable income. The other huge difference is that India is very rich elite, but its very small, the middle class is growing but is still small. There is a huge proportion of the population that is below the poverty line. Something that isnt true of all other countries that host a GP. So whilst the Indian market is huge, a large portion of it just cant afford to watch, follow it.

Not everyone has a tv in India. In the UK (nearly) everyone has. So even though you may not attend the race you can follow it. Thus people dont mind saving to eventually go to a race or two. If you dont follow F1, then the interest in watching one race a year, doesnt look appealing. Anyone know if F1 was on free to air tv in India?

There was also the issue, of farmers being paid below market value for the land, and then forced to sell. This obviously didnt go down to well with most people. So F1 was of to a bad start, and rubbed people up the wrong way.

Si - I wasnt really comparing F1 with cricket. As F1 will never be as popular in India - no sport can. Just showing the difference in ticket prices.

As Assa2 says, they need to build up grass roots interest, make it available on free to air tv, and take it from there.

I personally dont think there will be an F1 race in India, once the current contract expires, unless things change quite a bit.

Vinba - I am well aware of Malliya financial problems - wasnt saying hes a poster boy. Just highlighting, that in terms of F1, he has done what he can. I suppose they only thing he has done is hire an Indian driver. Which is understandable, as both 'F1 drivers' are pretty crap, and his team is a mid table team so needs mid-table drivers.
zieler
31-10-2012
Originally Posted by Mark F:
“Hulkenberg to Sauber it seems...”

Yep, now officially confirmed. Good deal for everyone bar maybe Force India. Nico gets a better car, Sauber get a talented young driver to replace the talented young driver leaving and Di Resta will have more chance to shine.

Who Force India get will be very interesting, will they just go back to Sutil or will they take more of a risk.
Bhaveshgor
31-10-2012
Originally Posted by ACU:
“Some good points raised by you guys. I do agree with Assa2 abut F1 arriving in India prematurely. Whilst the British GP prices are more the average man can afford, the big difference is that the average man in the UK has more disposable income. The other huge difference is that India is very rich elite, but its very small, the middle class is growing but is still small. There is a huge proportion of the population that is below the poverty line. Something that isnt true of all other countries that host a GP. So whilst the Indian market is huge, a large portion of it just cant afford to watch, follow it.

Not everyone has a tv in India. In the UK (nearly) everyone has. So even though you may not attend the race you can follow it. Thus people dont mind saving to eventually go to a race or two. If you dont follow F1, then the interest in watching one race a year, doesnt look appealing. Anyone know if F1 was on free to air tv in India?

There was also the issue, of farmers being paid below market value for the land, and then forced to sell. This obviously didnt go down to well with most people. So F1 was of to a bad start, and rubbed people up the wrong way.

Si - I wasnt really comparing F1 with cricket. As F1 will never be as popular in India - no sport can. Just showing the difference in ticket prices.

As Assa2 says, they need to build up grass roots interest, make it available on free to air tv, and take it from there.

I personally dont think there will be an F1 race in India, once the current contract expires, unless things change quite a bit.

Vinba - I am well aware of Malliya financial problems - wasnt saying hes a poster boy. Just highlighting, that in terms of F1, he has done what he can. I suppose they only thing he has done is hire an Indian driver. Which is understandable, as both 'F1 drivers' are pretty crap, and his team is a mid table team so needs mid-table drivers.”

very good point, but you are missing a very important points.
1. none of this was funded by the Government, and it is reported widely that the Government doesn't want this race.
2. indian Grand Prix is Guaranteed to have a race for 10 years, and the race is mainly viewed as a must go event for all the rich people to go to, to be honest it might work just because their only one race each year, and this race is viewed as being a rich sport and West sport, which makes lots rich people want to go to the race and lots of Wannabees (people that pretend they are rich) but don't expect many local people to come, it will be more of rich gathering.
3. Jaypree Groups look very eager for this to work, they really improved the track after its first season, and persuaded lots of indian celebrities to attend, and for the last week all the media attention was on the Grand prix, but i wouldn't agree about many people not having television, about 80% of people in india has television and most people that have television has Star Sports, mainly because that where all the cricket is, and it is Cheap, or included in the basic packs.


Good Article, http://businesstoday.intoday.in/stor.../1/189216.html
on the business side of this,
Bhaveshgor
31-10-2012
http://www.hindustantimes.com/busine...e1-950654.aspx
Quote:
“"The live telecast of the first edition of India Grand Prix generated TV ratings which were at least 4 times higher than the TV ratings generated by next best GP."”

it looks like many people are only watching the indian grand prix, indian grand prix is so far economical success, but we will have to wait and see if this is the case for the next 8 Years.
http://articles.economictimes.indiat...ng-sample-size
Si_Crewe
01-11-2012
Originally Posted by ACU:
“Si - I wasnt really comparing F1 with cricket. As F1 will never be as popular in India - no sport can. Just showing the difference in ticket prices.”

Uhuh.

My point was more that the people who wrote that article seemed to be suggesting that for F1 to be considered "successful" in India it should be as accessible as cricket and that's a flawed comparison.

It seemed, to me, like they were under the impression that people in the west might decide to go to an F1 race in the same way that an Indian guy might decide to go to a cricket match.

Course, that's not the case and it's really not F1's job to make Indians start to see motorsport as an aspirational event.
For that you really DO need grass-roots motorsport; karting, hillclimbs, track-days, a tuning industry, rolling-roads, car and motorsport magazines, home-grown talent and all the other things that make petrolheads see attending an F1 race as some kind of holy grail.
Si_Crewe
01-11-2012
Originally Posted by Mark F:
“Hulkenberg to Sauber it seems...”

I wonder if that'll turn out to be a wise choice?

Sauber tend to design conservative cars and it just so happens that, this year, their car has done well because it's been kind to the tyres.
Next years tyres are supposed to be more forgiving so there's a chance that Sauber will find themselves back in their more usual spot, just ahead of Caterham, HRT and Marussia.

Anyway, I hope Kobayashi doesn't find himself without a seat.
He's always seemed like a driver worthy of an F1 seat to me.

Not sure why FI are making noises about getting Sutil back in the car.
Hasn't he been found guilty of Assault in China?
Won't he be arrested the next time he sets foot in Shanghai?
Si_Crewe
02-11-2012
Caught some of FP1 at Yas Marina this morning.

The McLaren looks VERY stable on-track compared to all the other cars on the grid, and finished 1-2.

Hamilton set the fastest time with a seriously "sedate" lap and then went half a second faster while experimenting with running over kerbs etc while everybody else seemed to lose time when they tried the same sort of thing.

Be interesting to see if the car works the same at the cooler evening temperatures but mid-corner the McLaren seemed to require MUCH less steering input than the RBR or the Ferrari.

May be a bit early to tell but it could be a McLaren weekend.


*EDIT*
Oh, in case you don't already know, it seems that the problem with Ferrari's wind-tunnel is that it isn't big enough so the walls were interfering with the air-flow across any car inside it and that's what was giving them the dodgy results.
Liamforking
02-11-2012
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Caught some of FP1 at Yas Marina this morning.

The McLaren looks VERY stable on-track compared to all the other cars on the grid, and finished 1-2.

Hamilton set the fastest time with a seriously "sedate" lap and then went half a second faster while experimenting with running over kerbs etc while everybody else seemed to lose time when they tried the same sort of thing.

Be interesting to see if the car works the same at the cooler evening temperatures but mid-corner the McLaren seemed to require MUCH less steering input than the RBR or the Ferrari.

May be a bit early to tell but it could be a McLaren weekend.


*EDIT*
Oh, in case you don't already know, it seems that the problem with Ferrari's wind-tunnel is that it isn't big enough so the walls were interfering with the air-flow across any car inside it and that's what was giving them the dodgy results.”

It needs to be a Ferrari weekend, otherwise what was shaping up into a great season has suddenly gone very flat.
I don't mind so much which driver wins (though I'd prefer Alsonso) but not this seemingly boring and inevitable finish I think we will end up with.
soulboy77
02-11-2012
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Caught some of FP1 at Yas Marina this morning.

The McLaren looks VERY stable on-track compared to all the other cars on the grid, and finished 1-2.

Hamilton set the fastest time with a seriously "sedate" lap and then went half a second faster while experimenting with running over kerbs etc while everybody else seemed to lose time when they tried the same sort of thing.

Be interesting to see if the car works the same at the cooler evening temperatures but mid-corner the McLaren seemed to require MUCH less steering input than the RBR or the Ferrari.

May be a bit early to tell but it could be a McLaren weekend.
....”

You can't really go by practice sessions as no one is pushing their car to the limit.
Si_Crewe
02-11-2012
Originally Posted by soulboy77:
“You can't really go by practice sessions as no one is pushing their car to the limit.”

Yeah, you can.

You can't necessarily go by outright lap-times but the teams and drivers have to set their cars up and the only way they can do that is by making changes and measuring the differences and it's often possible to get an idea of what's going on from the results of the testing.

Interesting to see that in FP2 Hamilton and Button were, again, quickest on the prime tyre on the warmer track but then, as the light faded, the teams swapped to the option for quali' sim's and the McLaren couldn't seem to switch on the option in the colder temperatures.

Hamilton was obviously quite confident in his set-up direction.
The team told him to come in for a debrief but he flat-out refused and said he'd rather gain more experience with the current set-up.
Two laps later he set the fastest time on the hard tyre by around half a second.

I can't help wondering if, during the race, the McLarens start strong but then fade as the temperature drops.
If they had the guts to do it, it might be better for McLaren to run the prime tyres in Q3 and then hope they can gain track position before being forced to stop for options.
tghe-retford
02-11-2012
Tomorrow's Daily Mirror back page states that James Murdoch is to hold talks with McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull at Abu Dhabi.

Via Nick Sutton, editor of BBC Radio 4's News at One: http://twitpic.com/b9qrbn/full

Goodbye F1 on the BBC then..? More info will probably appear once the article goes online, I would guess...
Si_Crewe
03-11-2012
Originally Posted by tghe-retford:
“Tomorrow's Daily Mirror back page states that James Murdoch is to hold talks with McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull at Abu Dhabi.

Via Nick Sutton, editor of BBC Radio 4's News at One: http://twitpic.com/b9qrbn/full

Goodbye F1 on the BBC then..? More info will probably appear once the article goes online, I would guess...”

Maybe he's just looking for somebody to build him a decent getaway car?
Si_Crewe
03-11-2012
Strong quali' from Hamilton.

Oh, how I hope Vettel stopped on track because he ran out of fuel.
Back of the grid!
zieler
03-11-2012
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Strong quali' from Hamilton.

Oh, how I hope Vettel stopped on track because he ran out of fuel.
Back of the grid!”

Fingers crossed. Knowing Vettel he will get off but if he is sent to the back of the grid and Alonso can get a strong result we may just make it exciting...

Bit surprised by Button, he seems to be saying that he just couldn't hook it up in quali. Bizarre.
Forza Ferrari
03-11-2012
Ilegal quali from vettel and red bull? They have to be dqed if they have less than the fuel prerequisit minus one fuel lap.

Or if a liquid is being used as balast then they must be dqed from the wdc and wcc. Fia allows no unrestrained balast. Balast cannot become loose or move.

If flying to close to rule bites them once and for all them it serves them right as they have done this all season.

The areo parts at the rear of mclaren and Ferrari make little difference as renault engine blows the most.

Plus renault lotus put alonso out the race twice.
abby103
03-11-2012
Vettel has been disqualified from qualifying, and will start at the back:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20193545
Forza Ferrari
03-11-2012
Yeeeeers red bull caught.

FORZA FERRARI.

FORZA ALONSO.
coopermanyorks
03-11-2012
Well Alonzo couldn't help himself in qualifying,it looks like RB have helped him
welwynrose
03-11-2012
Originally Posted by abby103:
“Vettel has been disqualified from qualifying, and will start at the back:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20193545”

Is it wrong that I'm happy about this news
Si_Crewe
03-11-2012
Originally Posted by welwynrose:
“Is it wrong that I'm happy about this news”

This is a great opportunity for Vettel to show people just how good he is at overtaking.

*EDIT*
I see RBR are still trying to be slippery.
The rules say that the car must return to the pits under it's own power and have at least 1l ofuel remaining for testing and that the only exception is where a car cannot return to the pits under it's own power due to a problem.

Seems like the Vettel was right on the limit of fuel when he completed his final lap and the team then spotted an "engine fault" so he had to stop the car in the hopes of there being at least 1l of fuel left.

Alas, he didn't quite get away with it because there wasn't quite enough fuel.
What a shame.
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