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Fitting new cable to the bit before the master phone socket


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Old 10-12-2011, 12:56
n3brekab
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Hi,

I wonder if anyone can offer any advice on our telephone/broadband line.

We have an old cable that runs from a small, beige, rectangular, very old looking box in the front of the house.(photo of it here: http://postimage.org/image/4lohpdcjl/)
to our master phone socket. There seem to be two tiny wires (one green, one brown) that carry all of our telephone and internet traffic.

This cable looks very old and we were thinking of replacing it. Can anyone offer any advice as to what is required to do this? What cable etc.

Cheers,

neb
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Old 10-12-2011, 13:01
Nigel Goodwin
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As it's before the master socket, it's BT's and not yours, you're not supposed to touch it!.

Why do you want to change it?, it's just standard telephone cable.
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Old 10-12-2011, 13:08
n3brekab
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Right! So would BT have to replace it? Our phone contract is not with BT though...

The reason I am enquiring about this is because we are having new broadband enabled on our line and have just received the new router etc. When looking at our master socket we noticed that the cable that leads to it looks like it's been there since about 1960...

Also, we do notice a little bit of noise on the line and wondered if it was a good idea to replace the cable as it may benefit both our telephone line quality and our broadband speed.

Thanks for the help
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Old 10-12-2011, 16:06
chrisjr
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It is actually Openreach who would do the work, regardless of who you pay line rental to. It could be that the junction box is the demarcation point and that the thin wire is yours so could be replaced.

However I would be inclined to replace the junction box as well. Which would be down to Openreach to do. If you are getting line noise then contact whoever you pay rental to and raise it as a fault. If you are lucky they will send out Openreach to fix it and you may persuade the guy to replace that junction box with probably an NTE 5 type socket
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Old 24-01-2012, 14:51
lonewaller
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Right! So would BT have to replace it? Our phone contract is not with BT though...

The reason I am enquiring about this is because we are having new broadband enabled on our line and have just received the new router etc. When looking at our master socket we noticed that the cable that leads to it looks like it's been there since about 1960...

Also, we do notice a little bit of noise on the line and wondered if it was a good idea to replace the cable as it may benefit both our telephone line quality and our broadband speed.

Thanks for the help
You should be able (I believe) to run an automatic line check to see if there's a problem with the line. I think there's a telephone number you can dial which does this job (if I remember a forum message I saw yesterday elsewhere).

If you call out BT Openreach and they decide it's their problem they'll replace / repair things free of charge. However, if they think it's not their fault you'll get charged a call out fee and the cost of replacing the master socket.

Once again if I remember correctly you can get BT out to replace the box for a fee - £50 comes to mind.

Brian
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Old 24-01-2012, 15:09
chrisjr
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You should be able (I believe) to run an automatic line check to see if there's a problem with the line. I think there's a telephone number you can dial which does this job (if I remember a forum message I saw yesterday elsewhere).

If you call out BT Openreach and they decide it's their problem they'll replace / repair things free of charge. However, if they think it's not their fault you'll get charged a call out fee and the cost of replacing the master socket.

Once again if I remember correctly you can get BT out to replace the box for a fee - £50 comes to mind.

Brian
The number is 17070 and select the Silent Line Test option (2 I believe).

End users cannot contact Openreach to get them out to work on the line. Openreach only deal with service providers. So if there is ever any work required on the line you have to go to whoever empties your bank account for line rental.

Going to BT if you do not pay them for any service will get you a polite request to go forth and multiply

Some service providers can be reluctant to call out Openreach as they will always be billed for the work done. However they may not always be able to pass some or all of that cost onto the customer, depending on where the fault lies.
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Old 24-01-2012, 15:40
lonewaller
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The number is 17070 and select the Silent Line Test option (2 I believe).

End users cannot contact Openreach to get them out to work on the line. Openreach only deal with service providers. So if there is ever any work required on the line you have to go to whoever empties your bank account for line rental.

Going to BT if you do not pay them for any service will get you a polite request to go forth and multiply

Some service providers can be reluctant to call out Openreach as they will always be billed for the work done. However they may not always be able to pass some or all of that cost onto the customer, depending on where the fault lies.
Sorry, I meant that if BT Openreach were called out by the service provider - didn't mean to imply you could call them direct.

Can the OP provide a photo on the box inside the house to see if it "looks" like a master socket.

Brian
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Old 24-01-2012, 16:05
spiney2
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only the 2 wires incomming are needed (recall is hardly ever used now!)

You CAN failry easily buy a master socket and install yourself (either with a small screwdriver, or some now have the bix connectors, and the plastic wires insertion tool is included. The 2 incoming wires go to pins 2/5 (of 6) ).

The main thing is to have a master socket on the incoming line. This includes overvoltage protection - legally required if connecting anything at all to phone line - and the line-present resistor (indicates "line still there", even if nothing connected to it!).

After the master socket, you can do what you want (within reason!).

http://www.fineogs.co.uk/phone.html

DIY master socket fitting is in theory illegal, but really, there's not much to "go wrong". BT are only annoyed if you DAMAGE the line unit in the phone exchange (by somehow accidentally feeding mains voltage up it, because you didn't fit a master socket!)
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Old 24-01-2012, 16:08
spiney2
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When wiring a master socket, you SHOULD try and get the 50v the right way round, ie, the 2 wires! Although, this doesn;t affect internet modems, and most phones will still work ........ but it's easily checked if u have a simple cheap multimeter..
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Old 25-01-2012, 12:16
spiney2
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..... I should also have said, BT don;t like it if you kill one of their technicians, by accidentally putting something nasty down the phone line (due to not having a master socket!). Quite expensive to train up new ones ......

A master socket MUST be fitted! The legal - and very reasonable - requirement.
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Old 25-01-2012, 12:31
spiney2
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..... normally, BT wd use normal telephone cable - ie 6 core colour coded, white covered wire - to connect from your junction box to the master socket, but they only use 2 wires for the 2 incoming connections, usually blue/orange.

Easy to buy some telephone cable!

Of course, if u get 50v the wrong way round, that's a dead giveaway that u did it yourself!

You can buy online v cheap, or at Maplin, but normally it comes in 50 or 100m drums! As used for telephone & alarm wiring ........

....... here's a bit more from TLC, they also stock the cable!

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technica...e%20Wiring.htm

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...dex/index.html

(sorry, that's orange/white - I got colours wrong!).
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Old 26-01-2012, 13:31
spiney2
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from junction box to master socket, you could use "almost any old cable", but best to use the approved stuff ..... in case you need to call in BT at some future time! Avoid possible embarrassment, eh ?

PS, "ring tone" is 70v ac. Can sting a bit if you're unlucky, but not a problem, unless you deliberately hold one incoming wire in one hand, and the other in the other hand ......

(uk ring signal is 75v ac (r.m.s.), in some countries it's around 100v, if you look it up online .........)
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Old 29-01-2012, 22:15
*MikeB*
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Of course, if u get 50v the wrong way round, that's a dead giveaway that u did it yourself!.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. It isn't polarity sensitive in any way these days. The incoming line comes in on the orange white wires, then it is convention to use blue/blue white or orange/blue after that point up to the master socket.
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Old 30-01-2012, 10:50
drgeoff
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I have no idea what you are talking about here. It isn't polarity sensitive in any way these days. The incoming line comes in on the orange white wires, then it is convention to use blue/blue white or orange/blue after that point up to the master socket.
It is true that little consumer premises equipment is polarity sensitive these days. However a BT technician should wire the A and B legs to the correct points on the NTE.
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Old 30-01-2012, 14:53
John146
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I have no idea what you are talking about here. It isn't polarity sensitive in any way these days. The incoming line comes in on the orange white wires, then it is convention to use blue/blue white or orange/blue after that point up to the master socket.
^^^
This

Having been a BT Technician for many years, unless there was equipment within the customers premises that was polarity essential, then it would not be necessary to prove the polarity to the socket, one of the reasons for the capacitor in the main socket is that when a line test is done from the exchange the test equipment can 'see' the capacitor as being present, and indicates that the line has not suffered a disconnection.
As far as I recall the only polarity that needed to be observed was between the main socket and any extension sockets.
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Old 31-01-2012, 17:14
spiney2
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I can't think of any current stuff that's polarity sensitive,
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Old 31-01-2012, 17:28
beerhunter2
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Years and years and years ago, I used to install stuff that was polarity sensitive and the first thing that we did was to check that the GPO bloke (yes that many years ago) had wired the line correctly. The telephones didn't care so nor did they.
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Old 31-01-2012, 17:40
spiney2
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I have no idea what you are talking about here. It isn't polarity sensitive in any way these days. The incoming line comes in on the orange white wires, then it is convention to use blue/blue white or orange/blue after that point up to the master socket.
well, I assume a BT Bloke wd connect the 50v correct way round. Do they not bother any more ? 50% chance by pure luck ..............
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Old 06-02-2012, 14:21
Winston_1
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..... I should also have said, BT don;t like it if you kill one of their technicians, by accidentally putting something nasty down the phone line (due to not having a master socket!). Quite expensive to train up new ones ......

A master socket MUST be fitted! The legal - and very reasonable - requirement.
You obviously did NOT read the first post. He has a master socket. All he wants to do is replace the wire between it and the incomming junction box.

Whether this wire has been here since 1960 or not it not likely to have failed and replacing it will achieve nothing. It might be worth checking the tightness of the 4 screws on the junction box however.
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:19
*MikeB*
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It is true that little consumer premises equipment is polarity sensitive these days. However a BT technician should wire the A and B legs to the correct points on the NTE.
Depends on the age of the engineer. The younger ones wouldn't as they wouldn't have been told to on their training

If they do, it's only because they've seen the work of other engineers and do it because it's 'the done thing' not for polarity reasons.

The main thing is to use a pair that is twisted, that's important for broadband reasons these days. Especially in the case of VDSL2. On internal cabling you wouldn't take one colour from one twisted pair and another colour from another twisted pair for example.
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Old 11-02-2012, 18:06
spiney2
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You obviously did NOT read the first post. He has a master socket. All he wants to do is replace the wire between it and the incomming junction box.

Whether this wire has been here since 1960 or not it not likely to have failed and replacing it will achieve nothing. It might be worth checking the tightness of the 4 screws on the junction box however.
garbage.
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Old 11-02-2012, 18:43
beerhunter2
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In what respect?
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:49
John146
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Have already posted on this subject, I was a BT engineer for quite a long time (maintenance engineer), we very rarely checked the polarity at the subscribers premises, the wire that came in from the pole to the house (drop wire) had two grey covered conductors, so no colours involved, and I feel sure that if a customer was paying for a visit they would not want us to be adding to the cost by proving the polarity of the wires (unless they had something in their house that was polarity conscious), as for a customer sending a dangerous voltage down the line, what did we do before BT fitted sockets at the customer, there was no overvoltage/lightning protection fitted after BT ceased to fit electrodes/dummy fuses in a Protector 2/2 at the customers premises, an overvoltage incoming to the exchange was a very rare occurence, (lightning storms excepted) and was almost immediately noticed by exchange maintenance staff and the circuit isolated at the exchange and the appropriate maintenance section notified, and line tested at the Repair Centre, and the local engineer warned when sent to attend, in my many years as an engineer, no one (to the best of my knowledge) ever lost their life or was injured due to overvoltage from the customers premises, I feel assured that had it ever happened BT as a responsible employer would have sent out a national warning to us all to be aware of a problem.
Again to the best of my knowledge all mains driven equipment was totally isolated and prevented from sending mains voltage back down the line, it was only when customers fitted unauthorised equipment could there be a problem, and as I said this was almost immediately rectified by exchange staff.
And, why bother changing a short length of cable from the Block Terminal in the house to the socket?, when there is probably nothing at all wrong with it, by all means tidy it up by restapling it down, more problems occured outside of the customers premises than inside.
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Old 15-02-2012, 12:15
spiney2
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You seem to have missed the main point, which is that DIY work on anything BT side of master socket - including the socket - is illegal.
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Old 15-02-2012, 12:19
spiney2
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Have already posted on this subject, I was a BT engineer for quite a long time (maintenance engineer), we very rarely checked the polarity at the subscribers premises, the wire that came in from the pole to the house (drop wire) had two grey covered conductors, so no colours involved, and I feel sure that if a customer was paying for a visit they would not want us to be adding to the cost by proving the polarity of the wires (unless they had something in their house that was polarity conscious), as for a customer sending a dangerous voltage down the line, what did we do before BT fitted sockets at the customer, there was no overvoltage/lightning protection fitted after BT ceased to fit electrodes/dummy fuses in a Protector 2/2 at the customers premises, an overvoltage incoming to the exchange was a very rare occurence, (lightning storms excepted) and was almost immediately noticed by exchange maintenance staff and the circuit isolated at the exchange and the appropriate maintenance section notified, and line tested at the Repair Centre, and the local engineer warned when sent to attend, in my many years as an engineer, no one (to the best of my knowledge) ever lost their life or was injured due to overvoltage from the customers premises, I feel assured that had it ever happened BT as a responsible employer would have sent out a national warning to us all to be aware of a problem.
Again to the best of my knowledge all mains driven equipment was totally isolated and prevented from sending mains voltage back down the line, it was only when customers fitted unauthorised equipment could there be a problem, and as I said this was almost immediately rectified by exchange staff.
And, why bother changing a short length of cable from the Block Terminal in the house to the socket?, when there is probably nothing at all wrong with it, by all means tidy it up by restapling it down, more problems occured outside of the customers premises than inside.
The idea of the master socket is, customers CAN add their own stuff (providing uk telecom approved). Hence, the protector in master socket. Prior to that. the only plug & socket stuff was some key & lamp units with 4 wire BT jacks (NOT PO jacks!). And commercial PABXs of course ......
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