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Did Artem's wrong music cost Holly a trip to Blackpool
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thenetworkbabe
12-12-2011
Originally Posted by peeve:
“On the surface, this sounds good and I can understand why so many other forum members agree with it, but I'm afraid I disagree with your analysis.
If 'deadpan and laidback' is Holly's house style, then what was that Charleston if not deadpan and laidback? It was the epitome of cool, disdaining the gurning, silly Charlestons that Strictly has decided are what the dance should be about. Holly said on ITT during the week that she hated gurning slapstick, so the style was entirely right for her.

Chris Hollins is on record as saying the Charleston was made for him; expecting Holly to be able to deliver a routine like the Team Cola one, given her personality, is more than a bit of a stretch.
How quickly we forget! She could not have had a stronger character than in her dance to Cell Block Tango in Broadway Week, yet failed to deliver any real impact. Personally, I think that was because of her lack of ability. Had she done that routine later in the series, she would have made a better job of it, as she did with the paso.
And yet Artem was repeatedly criticised on this forum for faffing abaht with props and not being in hold, yada, yada, yada (cf the tango, VW, AS, AT)
Well, a cartwheel (if you can do them - I can't and neither, it would seem, can Holly) is easier to do than a dance step if you're not a dancer, so it's as much time-wasting as anything else. I loved their AT, but Holly spent half of it sitting on that stool and didn't have that many complicated steps - I would argue there was far less content than in the AT Artem danced with Kara last year - again, he limited things to her ability.

Thanks to the producers' love of comedy VTs, we actually have no idea how Artem has been teaching Holly and whether this differs from how he worked with Kara, so this is only supposition. He is an experienced teacher, so should be very accustomed to adapting his teaching style.

Getting back to the question posed by the OP - no, I don't think Artem is to blame for the fact that Holly didn't make the final. She got as far as her ability and popularity with the GBP allowed, and I think she would be the first to agree with that. I have voted for them throughout the series, but I didn't vote for them on Saturday, because I didn't think they deserved to go through - based purely on the lack of quality of Holly's dancing. Mind you, I didn't vote for Jason either, even though I think he deserves his place, but that's because he bores me to tears as soon as he opens his mouth. I'm not consistent...”

I agree its not that easy to work out a Holly house style and she does seem to have been against going down the Hollins play it for votes route, but Holly can play funny and a range of roles and there ought to be one there somewhere. There's also the more obvious familar vote winning cinematic route taken by Tom Chambers by the time you get to the Charleston. Her problem is that if you don't work up a style, you are out voted by people who have. Harry has fallen into his destiny of boyband heart throb. Chelsee has run with her imposed tag of ladette to lady- and done a good job of coming from behind and being bubbly but acting ladies well when needed. Jason has been himself - earnest and hardworking - and had the same effect as he has on stage - some people love his acting, others think its terrible and dislike the intensity. Alex got as far on a journey story and the emerging swan theme by doing simpler more traditional dances. Not sure what Holly has been other than Holly and not looking desperate enough and not having a show story may be an issue .

I think cell block tango was the missed opportunity, pre Charleston, of the weeks where Holy could demonstrate she could play other roles . It wasn't the right piece from Chicago except for the word tango in the title. The lyrics are not written for one dancer and n so far as they fitted anything it led to acting coldness in the relationship when we needed more drama or fun or romance - or anything else. Robbing from Vincent's list of suitable music might have been wiser, and if it had to be from Chicago and could be fitted , something from Velma (tall, long legged, high kicking) or Roxie (Holly could play her character as is) might have had more chance of a break out. I agree it might have been risky but it would have been a clearer role to play and more obvious to the voters.

I agree Artem gave her gaps with not enough going on , but they were interspersed with massively complicated bits of high intensity. The result of that is that you risk scoring less when recovering and run more risk of making mistakes in the intense bits.Calmer, steadier with a few really dramatic impressive moments worked for others - although the girls can't hide as easily behind their male celebs as much as Kristina Ola and aliona could take distracting action to shield their celeb.

I agree we know very little as we don't see training any more in VTs or get to see as much of their characters outside ITT - but from what we have heard on air Holly seems to have been working hard and to be tired (although thats been said often too of Jason and Chelsee) The supposedly funny VTs manage not only to conceal whats going on but presumably mean there's even less time to train and more things to do in a week. Its been notable they look more tired doing less dancing this year and even more dances for the Sf and final may show..
blomes
12-12-2011
Originally Posted by Bea_Bopp:
“........

She danced a techno-Charleston in which she lost the timing and forgot the steps to some terrible Euro-pop wearing a big paid of grey knickers and a yellow duster tied at the shoulder. It was always going to be "Taxi for Miss Valance!"

I don't think it can all be blamed on Artem”

So, the music was terrible Euro-pop and her outfit was ghastly ?
As you confirm, it was always going to be "Taxi for Miss Valance"
Surely much of this must be down to Artem. Despite what some people say, dances always look better when danced to the appropriate dance music. All competent social dancers will tell you this, and so will the majority of the general public. The professional dancers ignore this basic truism at their peril!
Alli-F
12-12-2011
Originally Posted by blomes:
“So, the music was terrible Euro-pop and her outfit was ghastly ?
As you confirm, it was always going to be "Taxi for Miss Valance"
Surely much of this must be down to Artem. Despite what some people say, dances always look better when danced to the appropriate dance music. All competent social dancers will tell you this, and so will the majority of the general public. The professional dancers ignore this basic truism at their peril!”



Did he choose that music though? Sometimes they choose it, sometimes it's foisted upon them.
thenetworkbabe
12-12-2011
Originally Posted by Alli-F:
“Did he choose that music though? Sometimes they choose it, sometimes it's foisted upon them.”

And this time there was a change of music a few days in - and, if there ever was any explanation why, I missed it.
Alli-F
12-12-2011
Originally Posted by thenetworkbabe:
“And this time there was a change of music a few days in - and, if there ever was any explanation why, I missed it.”



Oooooh, another conspiracy theory I hadn't considered.

But seriously, you can usually tell the difference between chosen and foisted. Usually chosen is appropriate to the feel of the dance, traditional or the correct speed.

If it's foisted it's inappropriate to the feel of the dance, completely the wrong speed or beat, usually contemporary or quite poorly performed and almost always a dog's dinner of a dance.
blomes
12-12-2011
Originally Posted by Alli-F:
“.......

But seriously, you can usually tell the difference between chosen and foisted. Usually chosen is appropriate to the feel of the dance, traditional or the correct speed.

If it's foisted it's inappropriate to the feel of the dance, completely the wrong speed or beat, usually contemporary or quite poorly performed and almost always a dog's dinner of a dance. )”

Is there no-one on this forum who can confirm if some of the music is foistered onto the dancers by half-baked producers whose knowledge of ballroom dancing is next to zero?
It seems this must be the case in some instances, especially when tangos and suchlike are danced to ludicrous pop music. It's hard to believe that professionals would choose the wrong music for teaching pupils as it makes their job so much harder. And if dance-bands played this stuff at any social dance they would be thrown off the stage. However, the 'judges' never seem to notice - but that's par for the course!
Alli-F
12-12-2011
Originally Posted by blomes:
“Is there no-one on this forum who can confirm if some of the music is foistered onto the dancers by half-baked producers whose knowledge of ballroom dancing is next to zero?
It seems this must be the case in some instances, especially when tangos and suchlike are danced to ludicrous pop music. It's hard to believe that professionals would choose the wrong music for teaching pupils as it makes their job so much harder. And if dance-bands played this stuff at any social dance they would be thrown off the stage. However, the 'judges' never seem to notice - but that's par for the course!”



The pros know which side their bread is buttered and so don't tend to say too much, but they usually say things like "the music we were given" or "when my music was changed". You have to listen quite closely to ITT, but sometimes the clues were there and as Artem's music was changed last minute, I wouldn't assume it was on his say so.
TuscanSun
12-12-2011
Think Holly would have struggled with any interpretation of the Charleston because by that point she was pretty much running on empty. The high energy stuff has always been a bit of an issue for her and given her uncertain fitness levels dancing twice on Sat was a big ask. It was unfortunate that they couldn’t get the Charleston out of the way earlier in the competition while people like Lulu and Nancy were still there to divert the flak from her.

Originally Posted by edy10:
“He should know her strengths and weaknesses and highlight or conceal them. I think he did a fantastic job with her by hiding some of her weaknesses at the beginning but towards the end it showed.”

In the early stages Artem could do a bit of camouflage while the also rans were being picked off. But as the numbers reduced and the front runners started to up their games, unfavourable comparisons between the real contenders and the rest were inevitable. Once it got down to the final five there was no safety in numbers for Holly – or Alex.

Originally Posted by echad:
“I think Artem did choreograph according to Holly's style. He included a lot of easy but visually appealing moves (e.g. in the tango, the cha cha, the VW, the paso) and in the ballroom dances he kept her out of hold as much as possible. I assume that was done because she has a slightly lazy frame, and they don't match in height which doesn't give them a very good ballroom hold - it makes it more difficult for Artem to look like he's leading and Holly is following.

He avoided a routine with typical Charleston gurning, knowing that she wouldn't be comfortable. He did the same with the jive routine. He choreographed the Black Swan AS, recognising that although she can look a little bit lethargic when dancing, her long lines are suited to a more balletic style of dance.

I actually think Artem's choreography this year has been a masterclass in understanding his celeb's personality and weaknesses, but still creating original and very watchable pieces of choreography. The only part where he may have fell short is in overestimating her physical fitness.”

Agree, except BIB. I think he’s been only too aware of Holly’s fitness levels and has designed their routines with that in mind. All their dances have been performed at a sedate pace and none of them would have provided much of an aerobic workout – except for the QS and the Charleston – and they proved to be major stumbling blocks.

It didn’t help that Holly was lumbered with the ‘favourite’ tag before anyone had danced a step. I think it’s been a millstone around her neck and led to high expectations that never quite materialised, and while the Paso gave her a lifeline it was too little too late. On the other hand Chelsee wasn’t on anyone’s radar before the series started so she had nothing to lose – and benefited from being the surprise package.
blomes
12-12-2011
Originally Posted by Alli-F:
“The pros know which side their bread is buttered and so don't tend to say too much, but they usually say things like "the music we were given" or "when my music was changed". You have to listen quite closely to ITT, but sometimes the clues were there and as Artem's music was changed last minute, I wouldn't assume it was on his say so. ”

If that's the case then it seems a a diabolical liberty and open to serious abuse. It's fair to say that the judges also know which side their bread is buttered, otherwise they would surely speak out against some of the more ludicrous music choices. That's assuming that three of them have any idea of what appropriate ballroom and latin dance music is all about!
nagel84
12-12-2011
Originally Posted by mindyann:
“I think Artem did slow his dance speed down - but I also think Holly was flagging and probably danced it slower than she usually did. You only have to watch the Katya/Pasha jive to Cara Emerald to see how fast the pro's go when they are jiving for real - it's like fast forward

Having watched Mark Ballas on DWTS completely out dance his partner everytime in the last series, I really don't think Artem came anywhere close to that.”

Artem did say on ITT it had went better in the rehearsal and Holly indicated she lacked the necessary energy on the night. She said how mentally the contest had been taking its toll on people, they were starting to get run down, had been getting colds and that they were "dropping like flies" . She said "I dropped like a fly during the Charleston - Live". She also talked about how nervous she had been beforehand and I think that all tends to back up your point, ie. that things hadn't went quite right on the night and Holly found herself lacking in energy.
thenetworkbabe
13-12-2011
Originally Posted by blomes:
“Is there no-one on this forum who can confirm if some of the music is foistered onto the dancers by half-baked producers whose knowledge of ballroom dancing is next to zero?
It seems this must be the case in some instances, especially when tangos and suchlike are danced to ludicrous pop music. It's hard to believe that professionals would choose the wrong music for teaching pupils as it makes their job so much harder. And if dance-bands played this stuff at any social dance they would be thrown off the stage. However, the 'judges' never seem to notice - but that's par for the course!”

its the same result on most shows involving music though. The ALW singing shows have repeatedly deployed known killer songs and dull songs for some people's exit weeks.Xfactor is probably shaped the same way. Even if the contestants choose a list of suggestions, they may be turned down or given low choices on unsuitability to the arranger or singers, or on grounds of rights or repetition, Dancing with the Stars on a quick look has used all sorts of epic film music for tangos and it works but here it seems to veer between traditional and not working. .The question, as you say, is who is responsible for some of the more dysfunctional choices and, on the other side, some people not getting the well known traditional vote winners and others getting them.
thenetworkbabe
13-12-2011
Originally Posted by nagel84:
“Artem did say on ITT it had went better in the rehearsal and Holly indicated she lacked the necessary energy on the night. She said how mentally the contest had been taking its toll on people, they were starting to get run down, had been getting colds and that they were "dropping like flies" . She said "I dropped like a fly during the Charleston - Live". She also talked about how nervous she had been beforehand and I think that all tends to back up your point, ie. that things hadn't went quite right on the night and Holly found herself lacking in energy.”

We also learnt she had a bad knee, to add to the bad back problem she's had for weeks and Artem's bad back. In that sense it s a bit like dancing on ice - a war of the just walking wounded by the end.
Scarlett Berry
13-12-2011
I loved the choice of music and their outfits but she simply didn't dance it well. She looked leaden about the legs and the timing was well off. Overall she is a stunning girl but I never liked her partnership with Artem, I really don't think they gelled at all - IMO
shefair
13-12-2011
So to sum up the girl had a bad back, a bad knee, a cold coming on , was dancing a dance that did not suit her,either her physique or personality, to music that had been changed mid week.

She did all this despite having produced a stunning AT earlier in the programme , is it really any wonder that it was at times leaden footed. It was a combination of things going wrong and well done to Holly to pulling it off so well as she did.

Was it Artem's fault I cant think how? Except had he produced a simpler, slower dance if he had known about all these problems before hand and many of the problems seem to have been last minute problems.

Holly appears to have loved working with him and appreciate his work ethic and commitment, I dont think she was a naturally gifted dance and I think he did well to get her to the semis and make her such a good dancer as she became.

People say it would be interesting to see how he would cope with a not so good dancer , I think this year showed us that, he worked them both hard and taught her so that she produced some stunning really elegant dances that showcased her to the best of her ability and made her a worthy finalist , but due to an unfortunate set of circumstances she did not get there.
lynxmale
13-12-2011
Was his first year on pro-celebrity dancing the one with Kara? Looks like he did not adjust his expectations downwards a little. Brenda has always pitched his dances a little above his celebrities hoping they'll rise to it. When Artem did it he danced at his natural pace and made his partner look like she had less pop, which she did. She appeared to lose no weight, but if she were the preposterous 15 stone that has been quoted Artem might as well have danced with Chewbacca. I still say her usual way of ignoring Artem during questions was unusual for anyone else and their relationship was unusually distant.
Khyra
13-12-2011
I don’t think it was the music. I thought the music and the steps that Artem put into the routine were good. It was the dance itself, she was just poor at it and it wouldn’t have mattered what music or routine Artem would have chosen nothing would have changed that. The Charleston was always going to be the most difficult dance for her. I don’t mean to learn it but pull it off to a high standard. It‘s a pity she didn‘t get the Jive to go with her Argentine Tango instead of the Charleston, her Jive routine was good and she danced it well.

For me she was competing with Jason for the third spot in the final. The Charleston, doubled with Jason doing his Argentine Tango second and then getting perfect 10’s for it are more likely reasons that Holly is not in the final than anything Artem did or didn’t do.
HeidiB
13-12-2011
Anyone who thinks that Brendan's choreography is better than that of Artem is blind.

Holly's last dance did suffer, though not from the music but that she just did not have the energy left in her to dance any style of Charleston.

I still think she should have got to the final after that supreme AT.
tangos_with_tim
13-12-2011
I think Holly's Charleston only suffered from lack of energy. I think Artem pitched the routine, including the music, really well to suit Holly's cool, quirky personality - she would not have suited a traditional flapper girl Charleston.

If she could have kept the energy up, that routine would have been amazing.

It is a shame, I think they are all starting to look tired at times. I think the series is too long really - everyone was visibly shattered by the final last year, but that's when you really hope to see the mind-blowing performances.

I hope this final doesn't look like everyone is crawling across the finish line!
andallthatjazz
13-12-2011
Bottomline is that Holly is simply just an average dancer with very few and far between exceptional moves (only to go almost flat towards the end of the routine).

Her problems were mainly she's too lacklustre both her lower body & esp those feet & sometimes legs & then combine with expressionless face...she just can't keep up with the emotional aspect of a dance.

Shame because as always Artem's choreos were brilliant throughout the competition & Holly was just not able to carry them out with her partner.

IMO Holly lost the competition for Artem this series.
Dorabella14
13-12-2011
Originally Posted by shefair:
“So to sum up the girl had a bad back, a bad knee, a cold coming on , was dancing a dance that did not suit her,either her physique or personality, to music that had been changed mid week.

She did all this despite having produced a stunning AT earlier in the programme , is it really any wonder that it was at times leaden footed. It was a combination of things going wrong and well done to Holly to pulling it off so well as she did.

Was it Artem's fault I cant think how? Except had he produced a simpler, slower dance if he had known about all these problems before hand and many of the problems seem to have been last minute problems.

Holly appears to have loved working with him and appreciate his work ethic and commitment, I dont think she was a naturally gifted dance and I think he did well to get her to the semis and make her such a good dancer as she became.

People say it would be interesting to see how he would cope with a not so good dancer , I think this year showed us that, he worked them both hard and taught her so that she produced some stunning really elegant dances that showcased her to the best of her ability and made her a worthy finalist , but due to an unfortunate set of circumstances she did not get there.”

I think this is the best summing up of the situation.
rewatched it all on HD on my PC screen and my feeling is that Holly knew as well as Alex did that she had got as far as she was going to go. Trouble is, every time she said she was surprised at how long she'd lasted, nobody would believe her.
Holly started with about as much talent as Edwina Currie, so why should anybody expect her to "dance beyond her skill set?"
Holly only teared with emotion during the video highlights, just seeing how good she had got. Not tears of disappointment, just of emotion.
I loved the group lift in the last dance section. They seemed to be pretty OK with the result, and how nice not to be the only couple eliminated so close to the end.


I still have to catch up on the ITT Monday show, so will see if I'm right then.
Seymour
13-12-2011
Originally Posted by Scarlett Berry:
“I loved the choice of music and their outfits but she simply didn't dance it well. She looked leaden about the legs and the timing was well off. Overall she is a stunning girl but I never liked her partnership with Artem, I really don't think they gelled at all - IMO”

Exactly my thoughts, Holly seemed a different person on the week she was with Brendan.
penelopesimpson
13-12-2011
Originally Posted by thenetworkbabe:
“I don't think Artem could choregraph to Holly. Deadpan and laidback ought to have allowed him to create a house style. Australian and beautiful could have been incorporated. Holly can play funny but Artem can't write it. He seems to prefer unusual music to the well loved and well tried, and the beautiful and complicated to the easier and vote grabbing. The Charleston was made for that style, and Ola got 40 for it with a weaker dancer and actor by going simple and familiar and funny. If he had established a house style based on his celeb's personality (as actually the top 3 have) Artem could then have got brownie points by veering off into dramatic and dynamic and balletic dances in key weeks - which she did cope with with style. It was when she didn't have such a strong character or an exaggerated version of herself to play she lost impact. The costumes might have made more sense if she had had a style to demand rather than a different creation every week - which seemed often to fit nothing much. Artem also didn't seem to choregraph to Holly's limitations - unlike almost everyone else did this series. Aliona shielded Harry for weeks and still was hiding him in the QF when needed. Jason has come unstuck before trying to do too much, but Kristina kept her second SF dance to a minimum for him if he could manage the lifts. Holly kept on being sent out with ridiculously long complicated routines and was put out there alongside her partner trying to do the same moves for longer - while even Jason and Harry spent a lot of their time just watching Kristina and Aliona, and no comparisons could be drawn. Artem also seems not to have choregraphed to take account of the workload on his celeb, both in training and on stage. No one else has their celeb trying to do so many moves, and even cartwheels, in the second dance of a week where they have to learn two dances and perform them . Kristina clearly pulled back on Jason's content for their second dance and it worked. It might have all worked anyway for Jason, but Holy doing a funny easier routine in a more obvious costume might have puled in the votes too.

i think he worked with Kara because she is a different style of actress who plays very different characters - while Holly plays it more as Holly in a wide range of abnormal situations and can do it because she's credible in those roles herself. The romance added the house style last year. Kara physically was a better match and also showed on her documentary that she habitually learns things by massive repetition which works with Artems style and difficulty but might easily wear anyone else down.”

What an incredibly insightful and interesting post, all of which I agree with. I have come to like Artem a lot now and his strength is his innovative choreography, but it is a bit of a one size must fit all - and of course it doesn't. Having said all that, I think Holly still wouldn't have won but I think she might have made it to the final which would have been nice because I have so enjoyed them. But she and Brendan would have been a much better pairing. Holly has a divine figure but she is statuesque compared to the waif-like Kara Tointon and I always felt uncomfortable when Artem was lifting Holly. There bodies were not in proportion and I think the BBC were wrong to pair them together, putting possible PR value ahead of a good match
penelopesimpson
13-12-2011
Originally Posted by andallthatjazz:
“Bottomline is that Holly is simply just an average dancer with very few and far between exceptional moves (only to go almost flat towards the end of the routine).

Her problems were mainly she's too lacklustre both her lower body & esp those feet & sometimes legs & then combine with expressionless face...she just can't keep up with the emotional aspect of a dance.

Shame because as always Artem's choreos were brilliant throughout the competition & Holly was just not able to carry them out with her partner.

IMO Holly lost the competition for Artem this series.”

Interesting take. It is meant to be the professional who wins it for the celebrity, rather than the other way round.
penelopesimpson
13-12-2011
Originally Posted by fog:
“i get the feeling that in general a lot of women didn't like holly..and a lot of women like jason.
not trying to be rude/controversial, just being honest...from posts that i've read all through the series that's just the impression i get.”

I think that is plain daft. I think women like Holly a lot. She is beautiful and funny and laidback. Not needy like Chelseee....diva like Lulu, deluded like Nancy or Lulu or vulgar like Ann Widdecombe.
Alli-F
13-12-2011
Originally Posted by Seymour:
“Exactly my thoughts, Holly seemed a different person on the week she was with Brendan.”



You keep saying that hun and I genuinely can't see it. I think that was a dance she was always going to be ok at, it can be done a lot out of hold, it was slow and doesn't take a huge amount of acting skill, I think she would have scored quite highly if she'd done it with Artem and it was his choreography anyway.

I thinkthe Artem and Holly partnership was fantastic and they balanced each other's strengths and weaknesses really well. I honestly think he got her much further than most others would have because she just wasn't that good a dancer.

But hey, that's the fun of a discussion board, we all have different views.
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