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Old 14-12-2011, 20:37
BMR
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Well, that's if the government want them on satellite in the first place - I doubt they will somehow!
They are going to lose a lot of potential viewers if they don't go on there. I've got two neighbours with satellite- one with Freesat and one with Sky. Both have uncoupled their aerials.
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Old 14-12-2011, 20:43
marria01
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They are going to lose a lot of potential viewers if they don't go on there. I've got two neighbours with satellite- one with Freesat and one with Sky. Both have uncoupled their aerials.
Just too expensive, they'd never recoup their carriage costs. Channel M learnt that lesson the hard way.
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Old 14-12-2011, 20:45
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I suspect the most successful channels will rent (spaces on) satellite transponders by themselves - possibly in joint-ventures with other regions if they're sensible. Then they'll just have to pay Sky and Freesat EPG costs (could be a problem for Sky, as the SD launch queue is frozen indefinitely).
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Old 14-12-2011, 20:45
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Its a pity DVB-T2 isn't being mandated.

And it all seems a bit daft having a low bandwidth mux to carry menandmotors (or whatever) - its pre-DSO all over again.

Surely it'd be easier to find capacity on one of the existing muxs, for what local little content will be economic to produce?
Perhaps it's time for Culture Sectretary Jeremy Hunt to think a little more creatively now. New services at LCNs 110-115 are being developed to deliver IPTV mediated extra channels on Freeview HD boxes.

If the LCN no. 6 was reserved for these local TV services but they were delivered via the IPTV route then the costs of running these local channels could be significantly reduced.
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Old 14-12-2011, 22:30
kev
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If the LCN no. 6 was reserved for these local TV services but they were delivered via the IPTV route then the costs of running these local channels could be significantly reduced.
As the IPTV ones have shown there is little support for these at the moment. However it's an interesting idea - for those like the Nottingham station in the first wave it would be feasible for them to link this into an "On Demand" service making there programming more accessible.

Secondly, if local TV does prove it's worth then advertisers may start looking more favourable at the industry and pure IPTV services would be more viable (e.g. Derby TV could gain a place holder on Mux 2 in 2018 and be available solely via IPTV) - especially when coupled with a wider uptake of Freeview HD boxes working properly with IPTV!




Channel Content
Going back to some of the queries RE: content, the proposal by Digital Nottingham looks like it could be interesting
http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/con...m_Redacted.pdf

Monday and Friday 10:00 - 11:00 - Nottingham University Learning - Educational programming from the University of Nottingham

Monday to Friday 21:00 - 22:00 - Nottingham Matters (local news, views, personalities, stories)

Tuesday 20:00 - 21:00 - Nottingham Shops! (Fashion, dress, commerce)

Wednesday 20:00 - 21:00 - Nottingham Stories (Showcasing local talent and film makers) - Interesting one here as Nottingham is positioning itself as a place for film makers with parts of the new Batman film recently being filmed in the city, along the likes of This Is England and Weekend.

Thursday 22:00 - 23:00 - Nottingham Nights (showcasing Nottingham nightlife and activity)

Friday 18:00 - 19:00 - Nottingham Sport
19:00 - 20:00 - Legends of Nottingham (meeting people who have served the city - e.g. Torville and Deen, Ken Clarke)

Saturday
18:00 - 19:00 - Nottingham Sport

Sunday
18:00 - 19:00 - Nottingham Arts

Local TV Nottingham
Local TV Nottingham - http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/con...ottingham_.rtf
suggest that Desirable Programmes could include

Stories given little air-time on local or regional news due to time constraints or news priority, would be afforded more time on Local TV.

• Debates re local impact of local government policies
• An interactive news service
• Programmes that give young people, BME groups (and others) a voice!
• Local election debates
• Music programmes
• Money saving ideas
• Political issues with a local edge – unemployment/apprenticeships
• Programmes with relevance/impact on the community
• Suggestions by community / community involvement with their local channel
One of their partners companies seams to have been involved in the This is England films and a number of short films and commercials - so it's not like the ability to produce decent material is missing - its the finances to make this happen.

Here in Nottingham at least It doesn't take long to find a list of organisations producing local content already in one form or another - from the top of my head there are (in addition to the incumbent news paper, BBC Radio Nottingham and GEM 106)[LIST][*]5 Community Radio Stations ( 97.1 Faza , 97.5 Kemet FM, 107.6 Radio Dawn, 96.8 Erewash Sound, 103 The Eye)[*]3 university radio stations - (URN 1350, Norman, Fly FM)[*]1 new & local music station - (NGenious Radio)[*]2 "retro" radio stations (Trent Sound, Radio Trent)[*]2 Student TV stations (Trent TV, NUTS)[*]A number of local arts and news magazines - West Bridgford/Clifton Local News, LeftLion, 69 Degrees (and a few more I forget the names of)[/LIST]The question is, can local TV actually be good enough to make people tune in and be profitable (or at least break even)? In Nottingham's case at least five different groups seam to think there is!
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Old 15-12-2011, 07:33
TV Time Mike
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I have to admit I like the idea more and more from reading the posts and seeing how on the whole there is positive view on the process but I still don't see it working.

Some areas may do very well and with some creative thinking could not only pay their way but make a profit I just wonder if people will:-
A) be able to access the service in sufficent numbers

B) be open minded enough to give the service say six months to bed in and become a local fixture.

We can but wait and see.

I think it would be nice if they could use the service to provide the local blocks of news, views and everyday life but get films on there as well as home shopping. There must be more than enough old movies in the public domain that could fill three or four hours a day. Someone channel surfs sees a movie hangs around and see the local programs and hopefully gets hooked.
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Old 15-12-2011, 08:52
lbear
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Perhaps it's time for Culture Sectretary Jeremy Hunt to think a little more creatively now. New services at LCNs 110-115 are being developed to deliver IPTV mediated extra channels on Freeview HD boxes.

If the LCN no. 6 was reserved for these local TV services but they were delivered via the IPTV route then the costs of running these local channels could be significantly reduced.
It would be perfectly possible for this to be on all muxes as a portal to every local station - a bit like the internet radio option on the Humax. Access could be by the same "red button" type MHEG5-IC prompt used by the iPlayer on Freeview HD.
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Old 15-12-2011, 10:26
BMR
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(Going on satellite is) just too expensive, they'd never recoup their carriage costs. Channel M learnt that lesson the hard way.
Unless we introduce some sort of 'must carry' rules. Sky are a very profitable company- this is one way they could be forced to give something back.
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Old 15-12-2011, 10:41
technologist
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Unless we introduce some sort of 'must carry' rules. Sky are a very profitable company- this is one way they could be forced to give something back.
But Skys charges are not the whole story .... and are certainly less than half the cost of taking an existing feed and putting it on satellite.(think Code and mux, up link space segment EPG compilation)

Also to waive everything requires primary legislation ...

The issue is what is the best platform to give Local TV the coverage it needs ( both editorially and commercially) and at the moment the government seems to think it is viable on GI DTT..... but others think that Internet delivery may be a lot cheaper....

(and before people ask Cable is not as cheap as you think - back haul to super headends does not come cheap..)
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Old 15-12-2011, 10:54
BMR
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But Skys charges are not the whole story .... and are certainly less than half the cost of taking an existing feed and putting it on satellite.(think Code and mux, up link space segment EPG compilation)

Also to waive everything requires primary legislation ...
Which the government should consider making parliamentary time for, IMHO. Lots of other countries have 'must carry' rules in one form or another.

The issue is what is the best platform to give Local TV the coverage it needs ( both editorially and commercially) and at the moment the government seems to think it is viable on GI DTT..... but others think that Internet delivery may be a lot cheaper....

(and before people ask Cable is not as cheap as you think - back haul to super headends does not come cheap..)
I will be very, very disappointed indeed if these channels are not on cable, because this is exactly the sort of thing cable was designed for. As I said to a friend the other day- we have this state of the art fibre optic system- and all we do with it is show repeats of repeats of Top Gear!

Again, 'must carry' is the way forward, I think. If we are going to do this, lets do it properly!





BTW, what is GI? Google is no use, given its much more common military usage!!
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Old 15-12-2011, 11:30
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GI is geographically interleaved - these are particular UHF frequencies which cannot be built into a National network but can be used for something ( not just TV) in a particular locality.

The issue with Cable is the basic architecture - in the olden days there was a set of equipment in each Town - so plug your local TV / Radio in there But now there are superhead ends feeding every town by the marvelous Fibre optic cables from BT or similar - as carriage is costs less than kit and maintenance.
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Old 15-12-2011, 11:40
Jacquicrossland
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local TV IMO could also do some drama by making co-productions with other local TV stations. If good enough it could be sold overseas to bring in more income for new programmes. Advertising on its own wont be enough and making shows in a shed wont encourage them.
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Old 15-12-2011, 11:58
noise747
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Still trying to see the point in local T.V. I suppose it may be fine for larger cities like Birmingham where they may have something happening everyday, but for smaller parts like Hereford, it be a waste of money.
Sure they could call it Herefordshire T.V and cover the whole of Herefordshire, but there will still be very little to report.

We already got some local radio stations, well kind off they are more Worcester than Hereford and they don't have much to say about our city either.


so no point
,
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Old 15-12-2011, 12:09
BMR
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local TV IMO could also do some drama by making co-productions with other local TV stations. If good enough it could be sold overseas to bring in more income for new programmes.
No way.

Making drama of that calibre is staggeringly expensive. Only BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Sky have the resources to do it. Even Channel Five doesn't make much orignal drama. It's a non-starter for local TV
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Old 15-12-2011, 15:00
BMR
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Still trying to see the point in local T.V. I suppose it may be fine for larger cities like Birmingham where they may have something happening everyday, but for smaller parts like Hereford, it be a waste of money.
...
so no point
Yes, I think most of the first phase places are viable. Of the second phase, I've got to question the viability of services in places like Hereford, Malvern, Mold, Bangor and one or two others..



By the way, I notice Leicester doesn't get a local TV service either.....
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Old 15-12-2011, 18:16
kev
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Yes, I think most of the first phase places are viable. Of the second phase, I've got to question the viability of services in places like Hereford, Malvern, Mold, Bangor and one or two others..



By the way, I notice Leicester doesn't get a local TV service either.....
Supposedly due to lack of available frequencies - it seams that the spectrum has been used so much there is little room for the replacement of DVB-T to fit in some 20 years or so down the line! If the previous licence was still on air there would no doubt have been capacity found, but possibly at the expense of another service (e.g. Nottingham).
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Old 15-12-2011, 18:41
chrisy
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Channel Content
Going back to some of the queries RE: content, the proposal by Digital Nottingham looks like it could be interesting
http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/con...m_Redacted.pdf
Where did you find the list of consultation responses? I can only see mention that they have not yet been published (which is clearly untrue!) and a summary of how much interest there was in each area.

Monday and Friday 10:00 - 11:00 - Nottingham University Learning - Educational programming from the University of Nottingham

Monday to Friday 21:00 - 22:00 - Nottingham Matters (local news, views, personalities, stories)

Tuesday 20:00 - 21:00 - Nottingham Shops! (Fashion, dress, commerce)

Wednesday 20:00 - 21:00 - Nottingham Stories (Showcasing local talent and film makers) - Interesting one here as Nottingham is positioning itself as a place for film makers with parts of the new Batman film recently being filmed in the city, along the likes of This Is England and Weekend.

Thursday 22:00 - 23:00 - Nottingham Nights (showcasing Nottingham nightlife and activity)

Friday 18:00 - 19:00 - Nottingham Sport
19:00 - 20:00 - Legends of Nottingham (meeting people who have served the city - e.g. Torville and Deen, Ken Clarke)

Saturday
18:00 - 19:00 - Nottingham Sport

Sunday
18:00 - 19:00 - Nottingham Arts
A schedule like that wouldn't be too bad. Add in some local comedians, a few local bands, a recording of the local amateur theatre production, repeat the segments across the week, and you've got a local TV channel that is worth watching.
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Old 15-12-2011, 20:15
kev
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Where did you find the list of consultation responses? I can only see mention that they have not yet been published (which is clearly untrue!) and a summary of how much interest there was in each area.
http://www.culture.gov.uk/consultations/8173.aspx

Not via the DCMS site though - was Googling "local tv nottingham" after reading on the Nottingham Post site there were five interested parties to bring local TV to the city.
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Old 15-12-2011, 23:07
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One of the potential bidders for the London local TV service has said they would expect to be on satellite as well - I mean all the main London radio stations are on satellite already and I suppose London is the one area where that is possible/viable.
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Old 15-12-2011, 23:13
a516
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A few months ago (although it seams there has been a bit of tweaking - I'm now inside coverage of the Nottingham service!)

http://maps.ofcom.org.uk/localtv/index.html


(The licensees can to some degree change the TX site - e.g. in Nottingham they may choose to use a new site closer to the city than Waltham (in addition to Nottingham) - the aerial pattern may also differ)
Looking at Birmingham's service - they'd better watch what they do with their service from Sutton Coldfield - there's a few splatters in the direction of Derby which would affect the region correcting relay where users of Sutton Coldfield get the PSB relayed from Waltham. Admittedly, the splatters just hit the SW of Derby, but in any atmospheric lift there would be issues. Despite Birmingham's DAB mux (not to be confused with MXR) being directional toward Bham from Lichfield, reception does get into the sides of Derby, beyond "official coverage". Can't have on TV that if the local relay uses the same frequency.
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Old 16-12-2011, 16:44
FRANKIE RAY
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Admittedly, the splatters just hit the SW of Derby, but in any atmospheric lift there would be issues. Despite Birmingham's DAB mux (not to be confused with MXR) being directional toward Bham from Lichfield, reception does get into the sides of Derby, beyond "official coverage". Can't have on TV that if the local relay uses the same frequency.
Not strictly true, although I probably wouldn’t do this without SFN.

Digital telly as those smart arses amongst us know is relatively immune from CCI . About 22dB ish .
Relays used for analogue needed CCI protection of about 50dB unless precision offset was used.

A huge mammoth difference considering 30dB is 1000-1

With the current power increases ,there is at least 30dB of allowance in current PSB broadcasts for terrain and building clutter impediments.

Consequently many relays are not needed but were they are the impediment due to terrain etc would need to be greater than 30dB for a relay to be needed, unless there was very unusual multipath issues.

So add the additional 20dB isolation for vertical polarised antenna (planners use 15dB) many relays would actually work on the same frequency ,especially if SFN was used if the relay was broadcasting the same content.

Its great being a know it all !

Consequently for this and lots of other reasons there is oodles I say oodles of spare spectrum.

Somebody whisper this in the earhole of the planners? they need a little help.
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Old 16-12-2011, 19:11
a516
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Not strictly true, although I probably wouldn’t do this without SFN.

Digital telly as those smart arses amongst us know is relatively immune from CCI . About 22dB ish .
Relays used for analogue needed CCI protection of about 50dB unless precision offset was used.

A huge mammoth difference considering 30dB is 1000-1

With the current power increases ,there is at least 30dB of allowance in current PSB broadcasts for terrain and building clutter impediments.

Consequently many relays are not needed but were they are the impediment due to terrain etc would need to be greater than 30dB for a relay to be needed, unless there was very unusual multipath issues.

So add the additional 20dB isolation for vertical polarised antenna (planners use 15dB) many relays would actually work on the same frequency ,especially if SFN was used if the relay was broadcasting the same content.

Its great being a know it all !

Consequently for this and lots of other reasons there is oodles I say oodles of spare spectrum.

Somebody whisper this in the earhole of the planners? they need a little help.
It's not immune from CCI - In the real world Bolehill channel 57 is cancelling out or severely reducing signal strengh and quality of Waltham channel 57 (Arq B) in parts of Derby. If it was a DVB-T2 SFN, that would work, but not DVB-T and different muxes. And similar CCI issues in Ilfracombe/Carmel. But we've had this discussion before, and you won't acknowledge it.

Ofcom has specifically mentioned that the Birmingham service would need to be restricted north eastwards to protect the region corrector in Derby (Littleover), bearing in mind that users of the region corrector have aerials of the same polarisation and group and pointing in the same direction, so unlike other clashes, differences in the direction and polarisation can not be counted upon to reduce interference in the desired coverage areas.
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Old 16-12-2011, 22:27
Muzer
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Not strictly true, although I probably wouldn’t do this without SFN.

Digital telly as those smart arses amongst us know is relatively immune from CCI . About 22dB ish .
Relays used for analogue needed CCI protection of about 50dB unless precision offset was used.

A huge mammoth difference considering 30dB is 1000-1

With the current power increases ,there is at least 30dB of allowance in current PSB broadcasts for terrain and building clutter impediments.

Consequently many relays are not needed but were they are the impediment due to terrain etc would need to be greater than 30dB for a relay to be needed, unless there was very unusual multipath issues.

So add the additional 20dB isolation for vertical polarised antenna (planners use 15dB) many relays would actually work on the same frequency ,especially if SFN was used if the relay was broadcasting the same content.

Its great being a know it all !

Consequently for this and lots of other reasons there is oodles I say oodles of spare spectrum.

Somebody whisper this in the earhole of the planners? they need a little help.
You sound like you're turning into plane spotter
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Old 16-12-2011, 22:43
Ray Cathode
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Didn't you wonder what happened to plane spotter?
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Old 17-12-2011, 02:44
FRANKIE RAY
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Didn't you wonder what happened to plane spotter?
Who is this plane spotter?
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