well then I will amend that to only in SCD do AT have to have fire and passion

I have to agee with you. If you go and look on any AT website you can see that AT can be danced with a range of emotions, and encompasses a range of styles including the lighter Milonga and Vals. Personally I would find dancing my AT lessons with 'fire and passion' each week rather tiring, and frankly inappropriate! I guess there is some intensity there but it is more a passion for dance. I can also find dancing AT a joyful, fun experience.

Jason and Kristina's AT was by far my least favourite of their dances. I loved some of their other dances (the 'Bewitched' dance in particular), but found their AT unsubtle and lacking in technical content. (And I'm afraid my AT teacher, who had watched for that one week since I told him there were some ATs on it, couldn't even bring himself to comment on it.)

Chelsee's AT was spoilt by the wrong posture. I haven't really liked any ATs on Strictly though except, not surprisingly Vincent and Rachel's and at the time Mark and Karen's although I wonder if I would still like it as much if I watched it again.


Back to topic. I thought the final contained the two dancers I wanted to see there, although I agree that Jason performed well on the night and so it could be argued he deserved a place there.

All 3 of them deserved to be in the final, and all 3 of them would have been deserved of the win.
They were the best throughout the competition and so I couldn't complain if either Jason or Chelsee had won (even though Harry was my favorite)

Just noticed the following on the site I mentioned earlier -

"The Argentine Tango has its roots in Buenos Aires towards the end of the 19th century, and was developed from a variety of dances with influences from Spain and Uruguay. Len Goodman tells us that the dance should remind us of the gauchos coming off the pampas meeting up with the ladies of the night. It should be powerful, expressive and passionate."

It seems that Len has a very specific interpretation of the dance, and that Jason delivered exactly what Len was looking for. It's difficult to believe otherwise given the paucity of technical content in Jason's performance. My experience of Len is that he is almost invariably really hard on routines which are light on technical content.

Is it a reasonable assumption that the judges agree upon exactly what they are looking for from a particular dance, and that their requirements are conveyed to the couples before a particular dance is choreographed?

Ah ....... I think that might be explained by the fact that Len's passion is for ballroom (and that's where his expertise is) and so he is strict regarding the technical content of the 10 ballroom and latin dances but more laid back when it comes to the other dances.
But I do agree, that by now the pros should know that the judges are looking for passion and fire in a tango, since that does seem to be their united stance. And so to be fair to Kristina, that's what she gave them.
(Len seems to have an obsession with the gaucho/ladies of the night scenario.)

Worth noting also that Chelsee was clearly playing a 'lady of the night' in her AT. But Pasha must have thought that she would be uncomfortable with a really steamy role, and he gave her the story of a girl resisting the advances of a man - but loaded the performance with technical content in the hope that the judges would be forgiving.

But they didn't buy it, and awarded the dance a combined 35.

No,we get only literary replies here.

I remember Tom & Camilla's AT getting low scores (in comparison) for that reason but I thought it was lovely.
Scott & Natalie had adverse comments last year because they'd gone for the more romantic version too although Natalie did point out that the music didn't warrant an overload of passion.

I also loved Jason & Kristina's AT so I can only surmise that I like what I like when I like it

The great thing about the latin dances is that many of them are intended to tell a specific story.

It seems a reasonable assumption, going by the information and comments earlier in this thread, that the SCD requirement of an AT is that it tells the gaucho/lady of the night story, requiring the celebrity to deliver fire and passion in his/her performance.

Kristina's choreography allowed Jason to demonstrate his expertise in that area - but more often ot not the professional dancer has a partner who doesn't have that 'performance' weapon in his/her armoury.

Does anybody here seriously doubt that Pasha and Aliona are incapable of choreographing an AT which has the potential to deliver all of the fire and passion the judges require of a top-quality AT? Or that Aliona isn't capable of delivering a performance as steamy as that which we saw from Kristina?

The professional dancers know the capabilities of their partners, and where they think that the celebrity may not be able to deliver what the judges require they simply go for choreography which doesn't expose their partner.

It would be naive to believe that the judges don't see through that ploy. In most instances they deduct points when the dance doesn't deliver what was required of it. In some instances they turn a blind eye.

It may just be jet lag but I have no idea what point you're making or indeed the relevance to the OP?

I was responding directly to the following observation from you -

(Quote) Scott & Natalie had adverse comments last year because they'd gone for the more romantic version too although Natalie did point out that the music didn't warrant an overload of passion. (Unquote)

I didn't follow the series in which Scott and Natalie participated, but it seems to me that if the music in their AT didn't warrant a performance which delivered fire and passion it may well have been the case that Natalie didn't consider Scott capable of delivering the sort of performance we saw from Jason, and that she sought to disguise that weakness in his dancing by opting for music which didn't require Scott to deliver the fire and passion the judges were looking for in a AT.

The OP suggested that Jason deserved to be in the final two. I agree - for me he was without doubt a better all-round dancer than Harry. Kristina never needed to cheat with the choreography when it came to the appropriate characterisation for the latin dances.

Aliona pulled the same trick in Harry's AT as did Natalie in Scott's AT. The judges are wise to that ploy. They penalized Scott and Natalie, but chose to turn a blind eye to Harry and Aliona - as indeed they did when Aliona did the same thing in Harry's Charleston.

Don't worry Bonnie... its not jetlag....

There are any number of threads at present where discussion relating to the final goes off at a parallel from its intention.

It seems cruel that couple number 3 having worked so hard and done so well, should be invited to the glittering Final party in front of 12 million then evicted from same in a dampener contrary to the spirit of the season.

At that high level 4 dances instead of 2 should decide the Glitterball. Chelsee for example had hiccups in the first two dances, but recovered in the third only thanks to voters who gave her a chance to redeem herself. I would have been more than happy to see Jason and Kristina contest the ultimate round of two dances.

Who is in favour of the present two-tier system?

Who would like change, for all three couples to go into one Final vote? Would a triangular showdown be fairer and more exciting than a two-way shootout?

I admired Jason. He worked hard, gave his performance 100%. This was illustrated very well in the final show where he really performed. I think he did struggle with some technicalities (e.g. his ballroom tango posture). But all of the celebs had their weak points. I wouldn't have minded any 2 of 3 being in the final . And I certainly wouldn't mind the triangular showdown suggested by Soulmate.

I am puzzled by this logic. So to perform an AT which has plenty of technical content (Harry and Aliona) but has a more subtle characterisation is cheating. But to perform what is effectively a showdance with very little technical AT content but plays up the 'fire and passion' (Jason and Kristina) is perfectly ok?. And the justification for this logic is Len's completely misconceived view of what an Argentine Tango should be. Maybe Strictly should get some AT experts on its panel for the weeks that dance is performed, since I can assure you (from talking to one) that the feedback would be very very different.

BIB - I agree.
Every other evictee including first out and both contestants in the double elimination are shown more consideration than the couple who has gone the distance.

I like the idea of all three performing all 4 dances, even if they have a halfway 'tot up' of the voting to give the weaker ones that little bit of a final push.
They've all earned a bit of glory being in the final.

I'm not sure what seeing Jason doing an indifferent salsa and a dance I've already seen would have added to the finale for me, beyond extra bloat. And that's one of the better scenarios. Imagine Zoe hanging round as a spare part in what was obviously a two-man battle. Julian doing more comedy routines to no real end. Lisa lingering like a fart in a lift. It would also make the final announcement a mess. Either you interview Jason in third after his elimination and then get back to business immediately, and render the whole final reveal anti-climactic, or you just announce Harry the winner and toss him into irrelevance in the same McFly morass Chelsee fell into. It's fine the way it is.

Some of the confusion may have come from the use of double negative BIB.
I'm assuming you meant either 'doubt' and 'capable' or else 'think' and 'incapable'?

I hadn't even considered Harry or Chelsee's ATs, I was just responding to the poster talking of less fiery ATs and the ones I remember relevent to the comment.

Throughout the competition, Kristina's choreography has been full on catering to as many of the Judges' preferences as possible.
It's also the first series where she has been able to give free rein to her undoubted imagination and flair without fear of her partner not being up to the task and so many of the routines were a first shot at the choreography being in for the long haul for once.

No doubt she will calm down her routines next series as has Aliona from last year.

Oo! Oo! I'm going to disagree with Monkseal!!

I preferred the old, three-dance finals - every couple dances their two 'ordinary' dances (used to be best-scoring each of ballroom and latin, but I wouldn't insist on that), then a vote count is held. Third-place contestant is revealed, interviewed, and dances their third dance. Then the two last couples each dance their third dances. Then some filler (Merlin/Casualty) then the final placings are revealed, with both couples being interviewed (runner-up first) before glitterball is handed over.

That way we also avoid the unfairness of one couple preparing a dance that never gets performed. (Lest we forget, it was this format that gave us the very different but equally glorious showdances from Julian, Zoe and Lisa.)

We'll never know if it was indifferent sadly

Re the examples you gave:
I don't think this series was a 2 couple battle nor did we have a comedy turn in the final - point taken re Lisa though

Obviously everyone has their own ideal system for the final (mine would involve the showdances being taken round the back and shot) - I just don't think this system is obviously particularly unfair to anyone. Every system suggested has its flaws - the old one had voting throughout the week for six days beforehand then tried to persuade people that anything that happened on the night was particularly meaningful.

Strictly Final night is a gala night on a crescendo towards Christmas, not a night for long knives.
No point holding a funeral followed by a wedding.

I agree with you completely on the paucity of technical content in Jason's AT - I was really surprised that Len didn't deduct a point there.

I was under the impression from your earlier observations that you thought it likely the professional dancers were aware of the SCD interpretation of the AT. We may well all be of the opinion that SCD should allow a wider range of interpretation than Len's 'gaucho/lady of the night' scenario, but for as long as that remains the SCD interpretation it seems reasonable to me that the bar should be set at the same height for every couple.

I'm inclined to think that the technical content in Jason's AT was more of a casualty of Kristina's desire to maximise Jason's story-telling than a deliberate attempt on her part to disguise Jason's shortcomings on the technical side. But I can't help but feel that Aliona was perfectly capable both of choreographing a 'fire and passion' AT and of delivering a steamy performance herself - but, like Pasha, felt that the celebrity partner wouldn't be comfortable in delivering a Jason-like performance.

So yes - I think that both Aliona and Pasha cheated with their respective ATs.

They put the salsa dress rehearsal footage up on the BBC website a couple of days after the final. It wasn't very good.

Kristina would have put her body, heart and soul into a real Final.

Expelled from the party after topping the leaderboard, I really felt for Kristina. Standing under the lights she took it with brave resignation, not the ghost of a tear, suggesting she was satisfied with the partnership performance even if the public were not.

Ah - I was out of the country from the day after the semi final and only just caught up with the Final and Christmas Special this week.
I would never have bothered with the 2nd half of the Final live though, once it was down to 2 - the dynamic for me was perfect with 3 couples.