The SCD interpretation of the American Smooth is "Fred and Giiiinge". Was Artem cheating with his Swan Lake American Smooth?

Besides, the SCD interpretation of AT is very confused. On the one hand, there is Len's schtick of gauchos and ladys of the night in Buenos Aires (indicating that his grasp of AT is as strong as his geographical knowledge), but on the other hand the annual AT showcase is done by Vincent and Flavia, which is much more about intricate footwork. The two representations of AT are very much at odds in SCD. I imagine that Vincent would have raised an eyebrow at Jason's AT scoring higher than the excellent routine he did with Rachel a few years ago.

For me, Pasha went for a routine that was much more footwork based, even if Chelsee's posture wasn't technically great - how is that cheating? Aliona had a routine that though not as footwork based had some lovely figures, and had interplay between her and Harry - a bit of both, as it were, while not wholly one or the other - how is that cheating? Also, most ATs are choreographed by AT experts - do we know that Pasha & Aliona choreographed their routines in their entirety?

To have a dance that has has very little relevant dance content - is that cheating?

This is an interesting question, since I think I've totally misunderstood what an American Smooth is, based on the SCD interpretation. It was only when I looked on youtube yesterday that I realised it was something completely different. I'm just wondering now how many other people have a completely skewed view of what some of the dances really should be .

I haven't looked for competition AS, to be honest, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were substantially different to what we get on SCD. On Strictly, the AS seemed to be introduced as a way to jazz up ballroom with a few lifts.

On SCD there isn't really an effort to give dances an individual flavour any more. Ballroom = elegance; Latin (including salsa) = sexy; Charleston = gurning in a flapper dress. AT - as I said, there are two conflicting representations. I wouldn't be surprised if viewers - especially those that have started watching only in the last couple of years - were confused, unable to tell the difference between dances and just outright misled as to what they should look like.

Marking has been arbitrary, with 4 judges marking as they felt like. Doubtful if SCD has any written rules re AS beyond a limit of (now) 3 lifts maximum.

Last year Kara's AS was marked 9-6-10-10, with Len protesting that there were no foxtrot steps in the AS to mark. Others can comment if Len has since moved his own goalposts.

the salsa and samba in particular seem to be fairly interchangeable in SCD land and I have often wondered what dance the celb is supposed to be doing, the cha cha cha can also look very similar

only the rumba where the costume is different and the celebs look embarrassed seems fully defined in SDC land and there its interpretation has over the last few year gone to one being full on raunch where no other interpretation is considered

I thought Chelsee Rumba was really good but I have a feeling if it wasn't in the final it would have been criticised for not being sexy enough

Paso is usually easy to distinguish, in fairness. Salsa and samba - one has lifts, the other doesn't. Other than that they are often indistinguishable. Cha cha is increasingly like salsa and samba.

Very interesting point about Chelsee's rumba. I loved it, but I do wonder how it would fit into the SCD paradigm of raunch (or rarely romance) had it not been performed in the final.

Possibly this comes down to interpretation again. I was under the impression that the Rumba was the 'dance of love' - rather than of sex/eroticism. Rumba for love, AT for sex?

Kara's Rumba was certainly sexy, but for me it lacked any real connection between Kara and Artem. Chelsee's Rumba didn't have the same level of technical content, but I thought it spoke quite vividly of a stormy love affair.

Before scd started, I was under the impression that Rumba was a dance about emotion/relationships. I'm not sure if I have that wrong or whether it's another dance that scd have skewed the meaning of.

This might be helpful

traditionally, rumba is the dance of love, if you go to major comps and watch, its all very soft, romantic etc its SCD that seems to want to sex it up

Ah now I knew there was rule book somewhere for SCD dances

It was obviously written by Len and his obsession with coming aht and havin a go

where is the bit that rewards tall sportsmen an extra 3 points for being male, sports person and tall

to return to Chelsee's rumba I thought the spirit and story telling of a proper rumba were all there but as I say I think if it were not in the final I can just here Len saying it needed to be given more welly and Bruno saying she had it all there but she just needed to use it.

Understand I am not criticising Chelsee just the very narrow way that the Judges seem to think that all SCD dances should be danced, and by doing so I think that the competition looses out on a lot of wonderful ways the different dances can be expressed.

Artem has pushed these boundaries for example with his AS last and this year, both of his Charlestons and Holly,s jive. Some have been successful in the eyes of the judges and some have not with his choreography having been criticised.

I would like a proper rule book that lets the pros know what is expected and I would like someone to write this rule book that has an up to date knowlege of what each dance CAN be.

But and here is the rub I think each dance should have a certain amount of individually defined choreography ie some many seconds foxtrot so many seconds in hold etc so that the pros can experiment BUT each dance can be identifiable from one another

I think the way Strictly seems to need to describe every dance just using a soundbite has lead to that., and the nuances of all the dances that make them what they are, are lost.

So you have all Latin dances lumped together as 'Party and Fun' - with subsections of FUN and cheeky for the Charleston and saucy for the rhumba and aggressive for the Paso.

Ballroom gets the Fred and Ginnggee/Hollywood treatment for AS/QS/FT, romantic for the Waltz and VW and Tango gets the aggressive nod.

The AT is hors category (as is the Charleston really, but that slots into FUN and AS which corners Hollywood) but 6?? years of Len shouting Pampas and Gouchos has over ridden every thing else.

I want a clear description for each dance. A variety of steps that must feature in a paso, for example - the pro need not use all depending on the ability of the celeb, but some. How many times can they break hold, and for how long. How much time is allowed on props. Whether lifts are allowed in that dance or not - hell, whether an accidental lift is allowed or not. Perhaps this could be then extended to include a clear penalty - if there is a lift in a rumba, then there is an automatic 1 point penalty per judge (which could be applied after the marks are given). It's not fair to allow Lulu a lift in a rumba this week, and someone else later down the line is penalised.

After this, it's anyone's game. The pros can experiment within the parameters, and must consider that if they go outside the boundaries they will get deducted points. It is up to them to weigh up whether the dance is better (and more vote catching) with, for example, a lift and risk the penalty; or play safe for the judges marks.

The parameters need not be very strict, but there should be a clear indicator on a minimum relevant dance content, lifts, breaks of hold, etc. This should still be fluid enough to allow experimentation. Let the pros pick the music - there have been some surprising choices in the past that have worked well (Kelly Brook's tango to an Abba track).

I'm not sure that SCD does want a Rumba to be sexy.

It may be unreasonable for us to look for the same thing from the dances performed in SCD as one would expect to see when performed in other circumstances. Perhaps this is simply a case of 'horses for courses'.

The idea of SCD is that the celebrities develop over the course of twelve weeks or so the optimum level of expertise in all of the fourteen(?) dances.

Dancing is only partly about reproducing the moves taught in the training room. The latin dances in particular are tests of the ability of a celebrity to deliver convincingly a number of specific characterisations.

It would seem practical to me that the judges would use the Rumba as a measure of a celebrity's ability to convey the emotions one associates with a love affair, and that they would use the AT as a measure of a celebrity's ability to convey the emotions one associates with sexual attraction, i.e. altogether more carnal in nature.

It seems highly likely, if I have this right, that the professional dancers are indeed asked to deliver an AT with a 'gaucho/lady of the night' story line. Pasha is new to SCD - surely it can't be a coincidence that he choreographed an AT for Chelsee in which she clearly played a 'lady of the night'?

It's a very rare celebrity indeed who can deliver a convincing portrayal of every one of the different characterisations, but if the competition is to be fair then it's only fair that the professional dancers deliver music and choreography appropriate to the characterisation required of a particular dance.

If there are dances where the celebrity is unconvincing in a particular role then so be it. At least the bar is set at the same height for everybody in the competition.

But rather than allow a celebrity appear to be unconvincing in a particular dance it seems likely that the professional partner will often cheat in the choice of music and choreography, so that a particular dance does not require the celebrity to deliver the characterisation the judges are looking for.

A good example for me would be the ATs we see where the celebrity simply delivers the Rumba characterisation for a second time.

I'm absolutely certain that when the professional partner cheats with the choice of music and choreography the judges are wise to that ploy. It's only fair to the other celebrities in the competition that the judges are consistent in deducting points when that happens.

The judges marked Chelsee's AT fairly. Even though it was loaded with technical content and executed flawlessly as choreographed (going by the judges' analysis) it didn't deliver the characterisation they were looking for, and it was awarded a 35.

The judges awarded Jason's AT a 40, suggesting that it was the first time in the history of SCD that a celebrity had delivered exactly what they were looking for in terms of characterisation. One would argue though that it was so light in technical content that it was undeserving of that score.

I won't bore you by repeating my criticism of the way the judges marked Harry's AT.

what utter twaddle

how is it "cheating"to do what the music( that has been chosen or at the very least Oked by the SCD team) demands of dance

just because SCD seems to want ALL rumbas or ALL AT to be raunchy and etc does not mean

A. that they should be
b. that the celebs want or can dance it that way
c. that the pros want to be constricted by such a narrow definition of the dance
d. that if a dance is not danced as per the way SCD the seems to think it should be it is not a good dance

The Pros are not "cheating" at all ,what they are doing is being creative as all great dancers are, even in formal 10 dance competitions there are dancers who are innovative, creative and push the boundaries a little

Since when has SCD come to be SCD by numbers

Exactly. I would dearly love that there were a few guidelines as I mentioned before - minimum amounts of relevant dance content, lifts, breaks in hold - but after that it should be up to the pro to do whatever they want in terms of characterisation, music choice, outfitting, etc. I'm not adverse to modern Charlestons, melancholy Viennese Waltzes and rumbas that are about the end of a romance as long as they are well choreographed. In each instance, they had plenty of content, well danced - what could be wrong with that?

If we do want to talk about cheating, I'd hazard that an AT with about 10-15 seconds of recognisable relevant dance content could be cheating. I take this from this review who does know what he's talking about.

deleted, I cannot be bothered with a certain someone anymore!

Am with you there am so cross with myself for answering, will not be saying any more on this topic or in any thread where the certain someone has been before me

I have no idea if it will help or if you have a copy but as I recall, the official SCD books (cant remember if its the pink cover or the purple cover - I think its the pink ) do have, at the back, lots of info on the dances, what steps the judges are looking for, hold, music choice etc as demonstrated by Darren and Lilia for the latin dances and Anton and Erin for the ballroom dances

Its either this one
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Strictly-Com...6726456&sr=1-9

or this one
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Strictly-Com...726532&sr=1-13

probably doesnt help tho

they are now on my ignore list!

Thank you. My sister got me one of these for Christmas years ago, I'll have to dig it up and see. In fairness, the show has changed though since then - something like this that also includes props and breaks of hold, as well as the dances introduced since would be a good idea, especially if it were on the website before the series started.

oh, I totally agree that the show has moved on and changed but I seem to recall that one of them (possibly the purple as its later) does have salsa, AS and I think AT in it so it might just give a general idea......

Do you think that perhaps there are those who put too much emphasis on the technicalities of the different dances on a 14 week series that teaches celebs how to perform 14 different routines and not in depth studies of them?

I say this as a layman who couldn't begin to enjoy the show if I was having tick off items in a list and then award the relevent marks.

I remember Matt Dawson telling of the occasion when he was supposed to dance with Elaine Paige (I think?) at a function and he was at a loss with the different music and the fact that Lilya had led him all the weeks of the competition.
In short he had learned a routine not the dance, but that was ok since it was all that was asked of him.

I guess I must be one who looks for entertainment and as I've said before, like what I like when I like it so, as long as the couples complete the routine without falling on their faces or looking like they don't know it, I'm happy to munch my choccies and enjoy the spectacle.

For me it is not so much that the celebs have to be technically perfect in all the dance forms , but I do want to see them learning different dances, or rather dances that are discernibly different from one another, otherwise the show could be 3 weeks long , 1 latin 1 ballroom, one showdance

I also miss seeing half the celebs doing the same dance each week so that you can directly compare ie celebs to one another

and whilst you may like what you like , thats fine for me I like each dance to have elements of each dance

Going back to Jason I liked his Tango as it had plenty of tango in it even though it had that disco bit in the middle

I loathed his AT as it had almost nothing AT in it and it made me cross with Kristina as presumably Jason could have taught to do AT steps but for some reason whether she just didn't know enough about the AT herself or she just had a serious mental block

How long will it be before another thread is started :yawn: Its interesting reading all the technical stuff. Id love to go to dance classes and learn them all.