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is Classical Music elitist?
Eusebius
16-10-2004
I thought I'd see if I can start a discussion on this, or about classical music in general, after reading comments about BBCRadio 3 in Channels and Programming forum, suggesting that it (and therefore, by implication, classical music) is "elitist", and appeal mainly to wealthier older people.

That may well be the general perception, but there is no reason why it should be. It is true that buying and learning to play an instrument, such as the piano or cello, is more likely an option open to the better off; but I think that says more about the inadequacy of music education and provision in our schools and communities. But of course, you don't necessarily need to be able to play, to enjoy listening (irrespective of genre).

Music speaks to the heart and is a universal language. You don't need to be wealthy or a toff to enjoy classical music, in addition to enjoying eg. pop or rock. There's no reason why a Mozart piano concerto should be any more elitist than a Beatles song.
The popular success of snippets of classical music presented via popular mass media outlet, such as tv advertising or film soundtracks, theme tunes (Nessun Dorma a good example - I think it even made the top 5 on TOTP), or the recent Opera flashmob tv show, or even the annual Proms, proves that there is no elitist barrier to appreciating and enjoying classical music. I won't even go into the use of classical music melodies as inspiration by pop songwriters.

I suspect the unfavourable perception comes down mostly to ignorance of the music waiting to be discovered. Maybe they should do a Classical Idol...?
Rt Hon Dave
17-10-2004
Originally Posted by Eusebius:
“I thought I'd see if I can start a discussion on this, or about classical music in general, after reading comments about BBCRadio 3 in Channels and Programming forum, suggesting that it (and therefore, by implication, classical music) is "elitist", and appeal mainly to wealthier older people.

That may well be the general perception, but there is no reason why it should be. It is true that buying and learning to play an instrument, such as the piano or cello, is more likely an option open to the better off; but I think that says more about the inadequacy of music education and provision in our schools and communities. But of course, you don't necessarily need to be able to play, to enjoy listening (irrespective of genre).

Music speaks to the heart and is a universal language. You don't need to be wealthy or a toff to enjoy classical music, in addition to enjoying eg. pop or rock. There's no reason why a Mozart piano concerto should be any more elitist than a Beatles song.
The popular success of snippets of classical music presented via popular mass media outlet, such as tv advertising or film soundtracks, theme tunes (Nessun Dorma a good example - I think it even made the top 5 on TOTP), or the recent Opera flashmob tv show, or even the annual Proms, proves that there is no elitist barrier to appreciating and enjoying classical music. I won't even go into the use of classical music melodies as inspiration by pop songwriters.

I suspect the unfavourable perception comes down mostly to ignorance of the music waiting to be discovered. Maybe they should do a Classical Idol...?”

There is no form of music that takes half the skill or intelligence to make, both to compose and to play, that classical music takes. No other genre has such capacity for emotion and thought, or is simply as nice to listen to.

But people don't care. Give them a drum beat and let them jump about like apes, and they're quite content - it is as though civilisation has pinacled and is now in a decline.

I understand that music is largely down to personal taste, but the brilliance of classical music is undeniable. Can you imagine a Western world where the youth listened to classical, rather than what they currently do? It would be bloody paradise. The effects on society would be massive.

But they listen to rap and hip-hop instead (which is basically glorified tribal shouting, straight out of Africa), strut around holding their crotches, and cause all manner of trouble.

More people should listen to classical music, and I think that if they tried it, most would enjoy.
Arwen1972
17-10-2004
Society in the past has allowed classical music to be elitist - as Rt Hon Dave says composing & playing classical music is extremely skilled and because of this, 'intelligent' people have taken it upon themselves to call it their own - thus making the gap. However, I would also argue that there are some very intelligent musical arrangers that are non-classical. Different music, has different purposes .... yes, rap or pop technically may be a 'poorer relation' of the classical genre but it still radiates an energy into their audience that makes them want to jump about and dance, sing at the top of their lungs etc. And thats what music is about.

I listen to music across the board - pop, rap, classical, R&B, rock, folk, bluegrass, indian, my collection includes a bit of everything and I have been moved to emotion by each one of these genres at some point.

Classical music is only elitist if you let it be - nowadays, you can buy a classical cd for the same price as a 'pop' cd. And listen to Classic FM as opposed to BBC3 as they don't poisition it as elitist - they try and reach everyone. I find classical very therapeutic, especially when I want to lie in the bath and be 'taken away'. Thats why I believe having a varied music collection is ideal as you can then suit every emotion.
etldlrl
17-10-2004
Originally Posted by Eusebius:
“I thought I'd see if I can start a discussion on this, or about classical music in general, after reading comments about BBCRadio 3 in Channels and Programming forum, suggesting that it (and therefore, by implication, classical music) is "elitist", and appeal mainly to wealthier older people.”

I don't think Classic FM would exist if classical music was inherantly elitist. I think the people who bitch about Radio 3 have a specific beef with Radio 3's highbrow approach. This seems to upset a lot of people for reasons I can't quite understand. I understand that not everybody likes it but I don't really understand why some people bitch about it instead of just listening to Classic FM instead. My best theory is that someinsecure people like to listen to classical music because it helps them feel clever and cultured. They tune in to Radio 3 only to hear stuff they don't understand, which makes them feel thick, so they complain about it.

One area where Classical Music is elitist is in the prices charged for tickets to major live performances. I don't like opera myself but I understand the complaints of those who can't afford tickets while many of the expensive tickets get bought by posing toffs who don't even like opera.

One area where classical music is not at all elitist (and shows the way for other sorts of music) is in the price of CDs. Because classical music is out of copyright, nobody needs permission to record and sell classical music. This has lead to vast quantities of very high quality recordings being sold in competition with eachother at very low prices. The fact that these sell well at supermarkets, garages and market stalls should put and end to the claim that classical music is just for toffs.
Bismark71
17-10-2004
Originally Posted by etldlrl:
“I don't think Classic FM would exist if classical music was inherantly elitist.”

I have to say you have made every point I was going to make, including the low price of classical CDs and the high prices for concert tickets.

I have to take exception to the above statement, though. I think Classic FM exists precisely because classical music is elitist. Radio 3 has, in the past, and to some extent continues, assumed that their listeners have either formally or informally studied music and know everything about the composer and the piece of music being played. This was particularly infuriating before Classic FM came along because they very often didn't even tell you the name of the piece being played or the composer and just assumed you *knew*, therefore you were left with a major problem trying to find that piece of music in record shops. They also have the habit of playing an entire piece, which can put people off if they don't want to listen to the 55 minutes of dross to hear the 5 minutes they know and love.

Classic FM realised there was this gap in the market, and it's not surprising it was around the time that classical music was being used more and more on adverts and at sporting events, thereby creating an audience with nowhere to go. They made sure you knew a bit about each piece so you could appreciate it more, and made sure you didn't get bogged down in all the technical aspects.

Their best innovation, though, has been the outstanding series of low-priced concerts where the conductor actually turns round to the audience and tells them a bit about the history of the piece they are going to hear. Until then, whenever you went to a concert it was as if the audience were a necessary evil barely tolerated by the audience.

To give credit to the BBC, however, they have taken this idea and used it for their "interactive" segments of The Proms. They just have to extend that to making Radio 3 more populist.
etldlrl
17-10-2004
Originally Posted by Bismark71:
“They just have to extend that to making Radio 3 more populist.”

To my mind, there is a place for both sorts of programming and I would not like to see Radio 3 become more like Classic FM. Classic FM has proved that the private sector is capable of handling the more mainstream side so I don't see a problem with leaving Radio 3 as it is. It might even damage Classic FM's commercial viability if Radio 3 became more similar. I also like the non-classical elements on Radio 3.
Hannah Buchanan
17-10-2004
I don't think classical music is elitist, any more than theatre or plays for example.

But you can't then set it up as a binary, complaining about rap music coming straight out of Africa (stereotyping), because then you are judging rap music in the same way that you are asking others not to judge classical, which smacks of double standards.
However, one of the reasons Lisa Duncombe (a Classic FM presenter) was given a job on Classic FM was because she wrote to the MD of Classic, Roger Lewis, complaining that not enough was being done to generate more appetite for classical music amongst young people. Food for thought.

The full story of that is here. http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcas...767155,00.html
valskey
17-10-2004
I have 2 children, both who appreciate a large variety of music. At school they are able to learn an instrument, and though we have to pay, its very cheap, I think only £26.50 a term, as much as maybe a night out for some. At school they learn about all aspects of music, and there have been times when a classical piece has been used, maybe as background on Tv and they have both recognised it from school.
i agree that at times its assumed everyone knows who composed something, the classical reviewer in our local paper tends to do that
As for concert ticket prices, well look how much a ticket is for the average pop concert.
I have played in orchestras and bands, and enjoy both equally. Both can be a very emotional experience, both can be exciting and exhilarating.
christygreer
21-10-2004
The "bleeding chunks" as I once heard them described-better known as excerpts from longer pieces- are exactly why avid Radio 3 listeners-especially the older ones, who have maybe listened since the days that it was the Third programme-which is pre-1967- have a major problem with Classic FM, and exactly why younger people like me (born 1967-6 days before Radios 1,2,3 and 4!) love Classic FM! Radio 3 sometimes expects listeners to know in intimate detail about every classical piece written since the days of Henry Purcell! I'm glad to say that Classic takes a much more relaxed attitude, which is why I LOVE it!
gashead
21-10-2004
I wouldn't say classical music is elitist, I wouldn't say it's even an issue as to whether it's elitist. It's simply another form of music alongside pop, rock, rap, jazz etc, and like all styles of music, it's main core of fans seems to mostly belong to one particular demographic, which is the older, middle classes. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. I don't hear anyone asking why rock and heavy metal is mostly enjoyed by white males, or why rap is mostly enjoyed by black teens and young men. You name a style of music, there's a radio station - and probably a satellite TV station - that caters for it. Each channel will have its own core audience.
If the classical 'community' is concerned that it's not as mainstream as they think it should be, they shouldn't knock themselves out. Death and industrial metal isn't exactly mainstream either, but I doubt that Ramstein and the like are loosing sleep over it. Like rap and now jazz, classical just needs a sustained period of music to get into the mainsteam playlist, or someone of such talent that you can't fail to ignore them to raise it's profile. It happened with rap when Eminem came along, and now with the likes of Katie Melua, Jamie Cullum and Joss Stone, jazz is flavour of the month. It's happened with classical before; during the 1990 World Cup, when Vanessa Mae came along, the sexy classical group Bond, Nigel Kennedy, but these were just short bursts. For whatever reason, they entered the mainstream for a short while and then disappeared. It will happen again I have no doubt. The question is, will the classical community be able to maintain a sustained period to really thrust it into the public consciousness.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that as you go through life your tastes change, and what you like today is probably different to what it was ten years ago, and will change again in ten years time. By all means promote your area of interest, but don't think you're failing if you don't convert as many as you'd like right away. Today's techno-funkers are tomorrow's Classic Gold listeners, and today's Mozart fanatics are tomorrow's easy listeners.

I also don't agree that classical music is more intelligent or more laudable than other styles. I'm sure just as many classical pieces were knocked out in five minutes on the back of a fag packet in the same way that many of today's songs are as carefully crafted as, say, Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata.
Last edited by gashead : 21-10-2004 at 21:14
tinminer
23-10-2004
I love Classical Music as a genre, i.e. I don't like all Classical pieces, just like I don't like all rock pieces. Some Classical music is trashy, don't mind admitting it. However, some of it is truly sacred.

I like listening to Classic FM and Radio 3, they are both very different and compliment each other well.

Unfortunatley , there is some snobbery in Classcial. My wife finds it very hard to listen to, but she never grew up with it - this seems to be a bit of a West Indian thing - I don't know any of my wife's relatives who do like classical. Not sure I really understand the reasons for this. However, there are some excellent black musicains and Opera singers now, and we even had a Black composer in England, the under-rated Samuel Coleridge-Taylor (1875-1912). But in many inner city pre-dominately black schools Rap and Soul are still king.
d'@ve
23-10-2004
Originally Posted by Bismark71:
“I have to say you have made every point I was going to make, including the low price of classical CDs and the high prices for concert tickets.

I have to take exception to the above statement, though. I think Classic FM exists precisely because classical music is elitist.”

I agree - and I think Radio 3 is elitist because the majority of its listeners are. The two feed on each other and that's why the only way to break the circle was a new station - Classic FM.

The classical establishment - and I'd include Radio 3 and most of its listeners in that - tends to be very conservative and resistant to change - they shut out attempts to broaden the genre by letting in outsiders such as the often self-taught performers in classical crossover. Even trained operatic singers like Pavarotti were looked down upon when they moved into crossover material; Bocelli concerts are sneered at by classical reviewers and people complain when Terfel dares to produce an album of popular classics. Singers right out on the edge of classical such as Church and more recently Westenra, aren't even considered. Except, that is, on Classic FM.

Why is this? It cannot be because such singers are bad for the classical music industry - last year Terfel and Westrenra alone sold a million CDs between them in the UK. There's no doubt that a fair slice of the profits from them will help to subsidise the production of "real" classical music for... the elitist minority to buy: real classical CDs that will do well to sell 10,000 copies and will struggle to make any profit at all. Now that attitude is not only elitist and snobbish, it's also plain stupid.

Radio 3 should embrace all kinds of classical music, right up to the very edge, where lies what I call "classical popover". Not all day long, but in carefully targetted programmes - programmes the elitists could avoid if they wished to. That would attract a much wider audience base: people weaned on Classic FM for example or even Radio 2, who might then go on to hear and enjoy complete symphonies and "heavy" works that many feel Classic FM devotes too little airtime to. The elitist establishment would complain - but they are such a small minority they should not be allowed to hold the rest of us to ransom.

Well that's quite enough ranting from me but I do feel better now I've got it off my chest! It's back to Anna Netrebko followed by, hmmm... let's see, a Rachmaninov symphony and finally, some pure Westenra
CaptainSensible
23-10-2004
I listen to classical and non-classical music. Fans of one that refuse to listen to the other aren't worth arguing with. Disliking something is fine (I will never be a fan of opera or r'n'b), but believing that one form of music is superior or inferior to another is just daft.

I get as much pleasure from a choral work such as Rachmaninov's Vespers as I do from an electric folk romp such as Bob Dylan's Tombstone Blues; all that decline of civilisation nonsense (see above post) from classical snobs makes me want to puke. Get a life...
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