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Leona - Has She Past Her Sell By Date?


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Old 19-12-2011, 20:04
geezed
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Leona has released 9 singles in the UK. 3 have been covers. I agree it's too many. The first 9 singles released in the UK by the Rollling Stones were ALL covers. Yep, people get sick of acts that always release covers.
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Old 19-12-2011, 20:12
iseloid
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Atleast get your facts right.. Spirit has sold over 7m worldwide, Echo 2.5m..
I have. And those figures are bare minimums. I know spirit has sold over 7m WW and echo has sold over 2.5m WW. I never said otherwise.

I was simply referring to the UK and US figures. In comparison to adele.
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Old 19-12-2011, 20:45
LostIslands_
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In comparison to adele.
:yawn:

As much as I dislike Leona, people comparing EVERYONE to Adele really is wearing thin.
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Old 19-12-2011, 21:16
snoopy10
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So many mistakes in this post as a whole I'll have to go through them one by one

and overcome sold over 1m worldwide. about 780k here and 30k in ireland. so thats not too bad throughout europe to say that 100k was sold off the back of bad boys with a 2 week european promo trip.
You're forgetting that X Factor UK has lots of European viewers. So a proportion of them would be Alex fans from watching the show

and that staggeringly low level of sales is poor due to *poor promo in the UK*. after broken heels which peaked in jan 2010,they didnt put out another single till mid may. BIG MISTAKE.
*snip*
spirit had all the promo in the world.
You're saying that Overcome was poorly promoted because of a 3-4 month gap between the 2nd and 3rd singles, yet then you're saying that Spirit was promoted very well? If we're comparing, then Spirit had a 6 month gap between the 1st and 2nd singles, and then they stopped after two, so I'm not sure that's a valid point at all. If that's what you're basing promotion on then Spirit's was much less. I'd say they had the same amount of promotion on their respective launches, it's just that Leona ended up getting a lot of free promo based on her taking off in the US, which ended up being reported here a lot.

6m sold WW, and only 1m of that was in the USA, and 3m was in the UK, compare that to 21 (I know its been mental, but 4m sold in the US, and it outsold spirit in the same amount of time Spirit was a hot album.
It was over 7 million worldwide (if you're claiming that 3 million was in the UK) because that includes deluxe sales. Spirit sold around 6.2 million, Spirit Deluxe sold a little over a million. So it's probably near to 7.3 million

she wont be dropped as simon needs her name.
No, she won't be dropped because she's hugely successful, makes them a hell of a lot of money and still outsells most UK females.

in short; balladeers always sell like spirit did (adele, whit, mariah, celine etc). Pop artists dont.
I don't think I need to point out what's wrong with this statement balladeers do not always sell like Spirit. And again, pop artists often do. Britney, Justin Timberlake, Lady Gaga, Beyonce? All exceeded or matched Leona's sales.
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Old 19-12-2011, 21:18
snoopy10
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oh i know that, but wikipedia beyonce and you know what to do. its not THAT hard. and love that about alex - she's using her brain. manipulating the industry and what it can give you to your advantage.
But again, why on EARTH are you comparing them? They are completely different artists!

Alex is trying to be a Beyonce-type brand artist. Obviously she would then follow that model and try to build a similar brand, and push lots of singles etc etc. Leona is a singer-songwriter more album-based artist. Why are you insisting on comparing them?
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Old 19-12-2011, 21:33
Aries_123
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in answer to OP's question: no!! she still sounds amazing..she just needs to work with the right producers and writers to make a great album and she'll only get to do this if she leaves SYCO imho
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Old 19-12-2011, 22:58
iseloid
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But again, why on EARTH are you comparing them? They are completely different artists!

Alex is trying to be a Beyonce-type brand artist. Obviously she would then follow that model and try to build a similar brand, and push lots of singles etc etc. Leona is a singer-songwriter more album-based artist. Why are you insisting on comparing them?
because mariah and whitney both established themselves as brands. youre in an industry as a product. mariah is a singer-songwriter and an albums artist too, but is still a brand nonetheless, branding herself as the 'voice'.
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Old 19-12-2011, 23:41
iseloid
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So many mistakes in this post as a whole I'll have to go through them one by one



You're forgetting that X Factor UK has lots of European viewers. So a proportion of them would be Alex fans from watching the show



You're saying that Overcome was poorly promoted because of a 3-4 month gap between the 2nd and 3rd singles, yet then you're saying that Spirit was promoted very well? If we're comparing, then Spirit had a 6 month gap between the 1st and 2nd singles, and then they stopped after two, so I'm not sure that's a valid point at all. If that's what you're basing promotion on then Spirit's was much less. I'd say they had the same amount of promotion on their respective launches, it's just that Leona ended up getting a lot of free promo based on her taking off in the US, which ended up being reported here a lot.



It was over 7 million worldwide (if you're claiming that 3 million was in the UK) because that includes deluxe sales. Spirit sold around 6.2 million, Spirit Deluxe sold a little over a million. So it's probably near to 7.3 million



No, she won't be dropped because she's hugely successful, makes them a hell of a lot of money and still outsells most UK females.



I don't think I need to point out what's wrong with this statement balladeers do not always sell like Spirit. And again, pop artists often do. Britney, Justin Timberlake, Lady Gaga, Beyonce? All exceeded or matched Leona's sales.
yes balladeers dont always sell heavily, but most do. pop artists do but through their subsequent singles. for a period mariah and whitney were both balladeers and pop artists. balladeers can often have mega sales from one single (I will always love you, vision of love/one sweet day, bleeding love, irreplaceable, endless love, someone like you/rolling in the deep). yes the sales are one thing in regards to leona, but her being dropped wouldnt look good for the show would it. she's had incredible sales since 2007. she'll only be dropped if her 5th album (when her deal's up) doesn't make a profit; same for any artist.

leona did benefit from her international appeal and it was well reported here, but in regards to overcome, look at the charting position, it was down to the 60s and below by mid-late february unlike cheryl (who released at the same time), but spirit wasn't in february 2008. bad boys was a hit, but cheryl overshadowed it (even though bad boys went platinum 2 months before FFTL, platinum january like bleeding love was certified platinum 4 months after release) broken heels peaked relatively well (#8) in early january, and another single wasn't released until late april/early may.

alex didnt have the explosion leona did, with her chart reign from late october to mid december, and it was a top 3 single till mid january too.

bleeding love was in the top 3 when bad boys was and was there when broken heels peaked too. alex didnt have that album/single rush of popularity that leona did. leona did have a 6 month gap too, but after she'd outsold nearly everyone else. 4th best selling album of 2008 (1000 copies away from being the 3rd best selling album of 2008 - 1.8m sold) 3 singles and leona sold nearly double the total sales of overcome. she was selling like adele, (hate the comparison) selling well without the need of a current single; which most artists dont.

it sold an average (Spirit) of 34,600 copies per week, which is simply stunning, at least for the UK. alex could have sold 1m copies of overcome if syco hadnt done the same as leona with their singles strategy (oddly it was in 2010 when alex was supposed to be launching in the US, so the same strategy made sense). Overcome had sold 400k by december, and sold 780k overall, and about 50k was from the rerelease. so its quite poor. alex's album sales plumetted but leona's and cheryl's (900k sold with 3 singles) for that matter (similar release time) didnt. its all about being relevant, having your face seen...without it you cant sell. alex should have had a mid march release for the silence and then a june release for all night long followed by a late august release for start without you and the re-release 2 weeks later, then overcome (title track) as a new re-release promo single, instead of the silence. but they didnt do this. strange how it didnt get to a 3X platinum certification with its top 10 singles, and her overall success.

problem = the label. thats what i was referring to. No US artist would have single 2 release in december to peak in january and not have another released until may. no chance in hell. beyonce (US dates Im referring to) released diva (peaked in march at #19) and halo in january (peaked in may), and the next 2 singles (urban single - Ego; and mainstream single - sweet dream) came out in june. straight after the peak, a new single is set up for release. standard procedure, but not for syco. not all artists are as popular as leona in the spirit era, and shouldnt be treated as such. I used the adele comparison because she's the only UK artist to have the same style of album and single success as leona in the same time frame in a year.
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Old 19-12-2011, 23:50
konebyvax
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Atleast get your facts right.. Spirit has sold over 7m worldwide, Echo 2.5m..

Talking of getting one's facts right, prove that Echo has sold 2.5m. And, no, Wikipedia will not suffice.
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Old 20-12-2011, 00:07
MrsOrin
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FFS when her last single was released her fans were saying it wasn't a proper single. Now she releases Hurt and once again saying it isn't a proper single. Coldplay's single has been knocking around for 11 weeks on the charts and sold another 72k last week off the back of their performance.

I feel sorry for her and she has a wonderful voice but standing in a longdress singing a song again on the xfactor had no real wow.

I do like Glass Heart and think that will sell amazing but her performance at G.A.Y was effing DRY.
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Old 20-12-2011, 01:42
snoopy10
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well get OUT the damn industry! thats what its all about! i.e diana ross, whitney, mariah, beyonce ....all brands! they earn the most and are brands!

and she chose to do pop rather than r&b which is what she'd have ended up doing which is good as r&b is a dying genre.
I think these posts sum up what is wrong with your viewpoint in my eyes. I am the BIGGEST Beyonce fan, maybe even stan level - she's my favourite artist (bar MJ). But I don't think artists have to do what she does. I think it's a MUSIC industry for a reason - the idea that Leona (or anyone else for that matter) should 'get out' of the music industry because they don't want the fame side and to build up a brand in lots of different markets is ludicrous. Some artists just want to be music artists, make music, write music, because that's what they love. That's what the MUSIC industry is about.

And to the second point - again, this is what is wrong with your viewpoint. R&B may be less popular than it used to be, but if it is what an artist is passionate about and loves to do, they should do it, despite other genres becoming more popular. Leona did this with Echo - she wanted to make a pop-rock album despite it being pretty out-of-date, and she did it. I'd say that's her taking control of her career, rather than just following trends of what's successful.

7m WW is very good of course, but if you look at the sales in each territory 21 has outdone it with far less promotion in less time. and overcome flopped due to a 2 week european promo trip promoting single 1 and that was it. leona was everywhere. simon (as my dad said) saw leona as the next whitney houston mid-80s. alexandra will sell albums internationally, just watch. rihanna and gaga are the ONLY 2 pop artists to sell over 8m copies of albums now.
(snip)
1m was in the US (for the fastest selling debut artist of all time?? adele's 19 sold the same amount) so half its sales were outside the UK and US.
So now nobody is a success unless they match Adele? Probably the biggest selling artist in the world right now? That makes sense
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Old 20-12-2011, 01:52
snoopy10
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because mariah and whitney both established themselves as brands. youre in an industry as a product. mariah is a singer-songwriter and an albums artist too, but is still a brand nonetheless, branding herself as the 'voice'.
But Leona is not Mariah and Whitney. Just because they wanted to do that, why on earth does that mean that Leona should?

And you're clutching at straws with the second bit. Branding yourself as 'the voice' does not mean you then have to expand into fashion, perfume, movies etc.
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Old 20-12-2011, 02:24
iseloid
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But Leona is not Mariah and Whitney. Just because they wanted to do that, why on earth does that mean that Leona should?

And you're clutching at straws with the second bit. Branding yourself as 'the voice' does not mean you then have to expand into fashion, perfume, movies etc.
no but you should at least stand for something or be something. everyone knew that whitney was 'the voice'. youre in an industry to make music and profit. if you wanted to be an artist, and go on like that, then give it away for free.
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Old 20-12-2011, 02:35
iseloid
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I think these posts sum up what is wrong with your viewpoint in my eyes. I am the BIGGEST Beyonce fan, maybe even stan level - she's my favourite artist (bar MJ). But I don't think artists have to do what she does. I think it's a MUSIC industry for a reason - the idea that Leona (or anyone else for that matter) should 'get out' of the music industry because they don't want the fame side and to build up a brand in lots of different markets is ludicrous. Some artists just want to be music artists, make music, write music, because that's what they love. That's what the MUSIC industry is about.

And to the second point - again, this is what is wrong with your viewpoint. R&B may be less popular than it used to be, but if it is what an artist is passionate about and loves to do, they should do it, despite other genres becoming more popular. Leona did this with Echo - she wanted to make a pop-rock album despite it being pretty out-of-date, and she did it. I'd say that's her taking control of her career, rather than just following trends of what's successful.



So now nobody is a success unless they match Adele? Probably the biggest selling artist in the world right now? That makes sense
adele wasnt the biggest artist in the world with her debut in terms of US sale, it sold the same amout as leona's without a top 20 hit or being a big top 10 album (it reached no.10 but only after the saturday night live performance when sarah palin was on - the race for the presidency) no i was referring to adeles US success which is similar to leona's (the best selling track for a particular year, debuted at number one, all the rage in a particular year etc...not her entire success single by single). mariah wasnt all fashion and did the same as leona yet made albums that people wanted to buy in droves. its not wrong at all. you have a contract, maximise it and the position that youre in. develop as a songwriter, as an artist and a vocalist. leona isnt fully doing that (glassheart aside). there wasnt anyone like mariah musically in the 90s but she set trends, you dont need to follow the market, but getting your material on point is a MUST for any recording artist. And i meant brand full stop, mariah was a singer-songwriter with a brilliant voice and range. same as leona. but mariah stood for something: great songs, great voice, experimenting with the theme of love lyrically and other themes too. leona has the voice and some good songs, but they arent all perfect, ie the approach of echo.

It could have been a pop/electro/rock album but it wasnt, it was pop/rock. Yes she is free to do as she wishes, but its pointless if it doesnt sell well (it did sell well but you know what I mean) and the quality isnt excellent. Some of her leaked tracks were better than those on echo itself! your singles should speak volumes about you if you are an artist, but they havent. All I want to see is the real leona, which I havent. I dont know what she's like (you couldnt tell that from whitney or mariah - but their TV appearances showed us how they are as personalities and people).

Alex had start without you - pop with a little reggae influence, a nod to her heritage. beyonce has funk, soul and r&b; mariah pop and r&b with some light hip hop too (the latter two is what she grew up listening to). mariahs pop albums were epic as were her r&b efforts. I want to see that from leona, her heart and soul. mariah had transitions to the r&b sound she has now on her albums from her debut, the turning point was daydream.

pink goes against the mainstrea, but gets hits (number 1 and 2 for raise your glass and perfect respectively, and they were from her greatest hits album! ) because the music is excellent! now that is how to have a pop/rock record and make it sound excellent. leona simply isnt at that standard. she needs to make heads turn, as she did in 2007/2008. each of beyonces albums have been different too (DIL - funk, soul, r&b; B'day - hardcore contemporary r&b with a pop sound; IASF - electropop mixed with r&b and some good pure contemporary r&b i.e Ego and finally 4 - afrobeat, dancehall, r&b, soul, funk, pop, light rock influences (1+1 at the end, best thing i never had chorus) and electro (run the world). all diverse and interesting.

thats what I mean. a true difference in sound. to the average pop buyer, leona will sound the same on spirit and echo with a slight update on sound on the latter.
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Old 20-12-2011, 02:47
jackbell
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Threads like this start off interesting but soon fall into disagreements, Cowell bashing and comparisons with other artists.

Leona is hard to categorise - she's not Alexandra, Adele or Mariah. She's finding her own niche and as long as her music finds an audience I can't see a problem. Her last two releases went top ten - that's a success in my book.
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Old 20-12-2011, 02:57
iseloid
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Threads like this start off interesting but soon fall into disagreements, Cowell bashing and comparisons with other artists.

Leona is hard to categorise - she's not Alexandra, Adele or Mariah. She's finding her own niche and as long as her music finds an audience I can't see a problem. Her last two releases went top ten - that's a success in my book.
total sales do matter though in the end. yes leona is neither of the mentioned, but its an industry and will be compared to them. like it or not, theyre all in competition with each other.

in short, she needs a niche and fast. she also needs to have some hits in the US, top 40 or non top 40, a chart position is a chart position. collide was released there but not promoted (it hit no.1 on the hot club dance songs) why was she not the first artist on US XF? the label need to catch up and wisen up too. she shouldnt disappear for an age, the music biz is about popularity and you need to remain constant, not rihanna constant but constant nonetheless. I want her to do well and really shine (shes the best mezzo popstar this country has) but the label are really holding her down. If rebecca can (comparison but necessary) find a niche with album 1 then why cant leona?
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Old 20-12-2011, 03:06
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There's not much point reading a lot into this release - it was never exactly intended to be a massive new single. That's not to say there aren't major issues, of course. But Collide far better illustrated those problems than this EP does.

As for Alexandra, she did well with her debut album. It had what Leona lacks just now - a clear direction, whether due to the label or Alexandra herself (or more likely some combination of the two). Plus, rarely for Syco, they executed a pretty good multi-single promotion strategy.

In terms of moving, it'll only happen if Syco want it to happen. And I think that's still a long way off. In any event, there's no other UK label under the Sony umbrella with a decent track record in A&R. Epic is the best option but it is having its own changes just now and hasn't really had the opportunity to take an artist to the US (JLS tried but that was always going to be a tough sell). RCA in particular is just a marketing front for the US artists. Nick Gatfield is trying to change that. But in Leona's position, it's probably better to stick with the devil she knows!

Of course, we don't really know what she wants. Does she have a clear vision for how to turn things around? We'll find out with album 3. Far too soon to write her off, IMO.
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Old 20-12-2011, 03:20
iseloid
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There's not much point reading a lot into this release - it was never exactly intended to be a massive new single. That's not to say there aren't major issues, of course. But Collide far better illustrated those problems than this EP does.

As for Alexandra, she did well with her debut album. It had what Leona lacks just now - a clear direction, whether due to the label or Alexandra herself (or more likely some combination of the two). Plus, rarely for Syco, they executed a pretty good multi-single promotion strategy.

In terms of moving, it'll only happen if Syco want it to happen. And I think that's still a long way off. In any event, there's no other UK label under the Sony umbrella with a decent track record in A&R. Epic is the best option but it is having its own changes just now and hasn't really had the opportunity to take an artist to the US (JLS tried but that was always going to be a tough sell). RCA in particular is just a marketing front for the US artists. Nick Gatfield is trying to change that. But in Leona's position, it's probably better to stick with the devil she knows!

Of course, we don't really know what she wants. Does she have a clear vision for how to turn things around? We'll find out with album 3. Far too soon to write her off, IMO.
all true. overcome was generic tbf, and alexandra said it herself. I just hope the industry sorts itself out. its not hard to make some decent music and promote your artists well, after all you gain from it! collide could have been massive, why wasnt she on UK and US XF?? seriously!
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Old 20-12-2011, 04:59
big dan
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I think these posts sum up what is wrong with your viewpoint in my eyes. I am the BIGGEST Beyonce fan, maybe even stan level - she's my favourite artist (bar MJ). But I don't think artists have to do what she does. I think it's a MUSIC industry for a reason - the idea that Leona (or anyone else for that matter) should 'get out' of the music industry because they don't want the fame side and to build up a brand in lots of different markets is ludicrous. Some artists just want to be music artists, make music, write music, because that's what they love. That's what the MUSIC industry is about.

And to the second point - again, this is what is wrong with your viewpoint. R&B may be less popular than it used to be, but if it is what an artist is passionate about and loves to do, they should do it, despite other genres becoming more popular. Leona did this with Echo - she wanted to make a pop-rock album despite it being pretty out-of-date, and she did it. I'd say that's her taking control of her career, rather than just following trends of what's successful.
Completely agree with this post. I would much rather be a fan of an artist who loves making the music and is proud of their product, rather than making music with the sole goal of profiteering.

It is really silly to suggest that artists should release tracks of a particular genre (or praise those who have) completely for the purposes of having mainstream appeal.

It really makes me despair when I read debates on this forum being reduced to petty sales wars - it's better when the petty squabbles are at least about musical talent rather than 'my artist's sold more than your artist'! For me sales only really come into it as a negative when it gets to dangerous, label-dropping low figure (as obviously you don't want an artist you enjoy to be dropped, thus no longer releasing music).

As long as artists enjoy what they do and fans like what they hear that's all that matters. Beyonce is a great example of this - '4' hasn't set the world alight on a commercial level but for me it's her best work to date, and whether it sold 10 million or 10 thousand copies I would still think the same.

Leona is a real talent and for me never fails to impress at live events, so I really think she will be around for some time to come.
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Old 20-12-2011, 05:40
iseloid
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Completely agree with this post. I would much rather be a fan of an artist who loves making the music and is proud of their product, rather than making music with the sole goal of profiteering.

It is really silly to suggest that artists should release tracks of a particular genre (or praise those who have) completely for the purposes of having mainstream appeal.

It really makes me despair when I read debates on this forum being reduced to petty sales wars - it's better when the petty squabbles are at least about musical talent rather than 'my artist's sold more than your artist'! For me sales only really come into it as a negative when it gets to dangerous, label-dropping low figure (as obviously you don't want an artist you enjoy to be dropped, thus no longer releasing music).

As long as artists enjoy what they do and fans like what they hear that's all that matters. Beyonce is a great example of this - '4' hasn't set the world alight on a commercial level but for me it's her best work to date, and whether it sold 10 million or 10 thousand copies I would still think the same.

Leona is a real talent and for me never fails to impress at live events, so I really think she will be around for some time to come.
what i said was you can do both. not just make generic music. you should aim to maximise revenue whilst having good music or theres no point in trying, the music is sold for a price so the sole aim of a label is profit. beyonces next tour will sell out as 4 is a brilliant album and its phenomenal live. she never fails to impress neither does leona. but you should make good music that people will buy in droves. you should be the trend setter. leonas albums need a spark. something that makes them standout above the rest, which hasnt. same for alexandra. critics are loving rebeccas album (its nice but 5 stars? ) and she's set herself apart in terms of genre and type of artist. leona needs to do this too. the thing about 4, is that its the music making the album sell as we can see, not B's live performances as she's off on maternity leave and has been since the start of september. thats what I was referring to, and 21 is the same. the quality of music is making people buy the album. 2 great albums, setting the bar in sales and quality and appeal.
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Old 20-12-2011, 12:21
dee123
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Yep! Next Thread!
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Old 20-12-2011, 13:28
MrIncredible
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I see she's out of the top 40 in the midweeks. Smash hit.
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Old 20-12-2011, 13:44
miles19740
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Firstly, I can't stand the X Factor on any level. Not interested in any of the 'singers' who come off Cowell's conveyor belt. They make a bit of a noise briefly, but then, like a firework, they disappear in a puff of smoke...and Leona is no different.

Has she peaked? Absolutely she has.
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Old 20-12-2011, 13:46
miles19740
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Did she have one in the first place?

She's so dull I'm surprised she hasn't bored herself to death.
I agree there. She, along with the rest of the X Factor lot are as dull as...they are all the same...generic.
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Old 20-12-2011, 13:54
miles19740
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Blame the material & overall direction that is used for her. Trying to market her as the next Mariah or Witney was always going to a fail. Boring ballads, syrupy production & singing 55 notes when one will do is not where its at.

Funny as...

What is it with a lot of these modern singers who muck about with a melody? Please leave the vocal gymnastics at the door. It isn't good or impressive.
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