On the gloomy side of things…I am coming to a personal conclusion that Pop Idol, the X Factor etc will continue to entertain us for some time. However, it seems to me that anyone who wins in this show will be doomed and stigmatised by the whole thing.

Since Will Young is the only established successful winner (I’m not sure that Girls Aloud will survive) from an ever growing number of ‘winners’, I wonder if anyone else will find lasting success through this channel?

I think the ‘fast fame’ process, the great entertainment value, the public participating in voting and choosing is very, very good TV. But will it leave behind casualty after casualty?

Haven’t we all been disappointed at someone or other who didn’t get through, that we thought….well, that’s ok, because SURELY someone out there will see the talent, snap them up and they’ll be huge successes? Nope. No sign.

I mean…can you image something like ‘Vet Idol’…where newly qualified vets are televised and then win a practice out of popularity? Ridiculous, yes…could it happen?

I’m beginning to think PI is a curse for some people. And that would be a shame.

That's exactly what i think too! Whoever wins this won't go far, it will be all we hear on the tv for about a month and then it will all start to disapper along with the band who thought that they where going to go somewhere! And it is a shame because it isn't fair for the ones that have their hopes and dreams all come crashing down on them.

liberty x got signed up didn't they?

Fair enough. But do people think of them as a success? I'm not hugely aware of them...apart from Michelle dating ASL.

All the contestants are entering these subsequent Pop Idol/X-Factor/Popstars/Fame Academy competitions, with far more knowledge on how they work than the original contestents had. The same goes for the viewers who vote, which is why the majority of these subsequent winners have failed, the reason is the viewing public have become just as good at disregarding true talent as Simon Cowell etc has. But the main killer of any future winners is lack of airplay and interest, most of my family and friends don't even watch anymore as there's no buzz or excitement like there was three years ago, they can't even remember who won what and on which show! But they all remember Will, Gareth and Darius, most of my friends and family own Will's Albums and have seen him on his theatre tour and have tickets for his arena tour as well, I really can't see anybody else having and maintaining the support that Will has had up to now.

I tend to not buy music from artists who have been in a reality show because that is a line that i have kind of drawn for myself. I don't know why exactly but that is just the way that it is.
Saying that though i did get Lemar's CD (well to be precise i asked for it as a gift but that is neither here nor there) after many many months and i had my reservations but it was good but it still feels a bit strange to me someway.
I don't think that i will be doing that again, maybe Fantasia will cojoule me but i am not so sure.

I cannot see a major succesful artist along the likes of Diana Ross, The Jackson 5's ever making it as big as they have done if they took part in a show like this. It really just does not build credibility.
Last edited by rachelrising : 19-10-2004 at 11:52

i think the bottom line is that winners or others will make a career and be successful if they have the talent to do so. Progs like these only televise what used to happen behind the scenes...ok a few thousand more turn up to the auditions..but there are only ever 10 that would stand any chance .. and of these perhaps one or two to release a decent single..and then one in perhaps every 30 artists (eg Will) to have a longer career. There are "one hit wonders" going back to the beginning of the charts...the TV progs don't change the ratios of who gets longevity and who doesnt ..it just shows it in all its glory and gives a bit of extra airplay to those that previously would have had one performance on TOTP.

Fantasia will be successful in my opinion...even more so than the other American winners who have all done well...she is able to cross over so many genres.

Yes she may well be able to appeal to many people but the majority of her fans will be soul lovers and are they going to be convinced enough in great numbers to buy her music in great numbers. That just waits to be seen. I'm not totally convinced that they will though. Fantasia needs some very good orginial material as well if she is to do quite well and she needs to remove herself from the taint of these shows. Even still though in my opinion this is not going to buy her credibility or longevity. The soul market can be such a fickle bunch and so hard to tap into.

america is such a weird market because it is just so big so acts tend to stay around a bit longer than in say "fickle" and more dynamic UK. The coverage provided by AI means that she will sell a lot of records and be around for a while IMO..a la Clay, Rooooooooooooben, Kelly Clarkson

Hey there Kiddiwinks,
IMO Zip is right about The P.I. Stigma,(or The Curse of Reality T.V.)it certainly does seem to be a bit of a poisened chalice.
This Reality T.V. genre is just a Short cut for a lot of those who entered...a lot of whom will NEVER be seen or heard again in public or anywhere else.
In a way it seems IMO to be a perfect metaphor for 21st century living "Instant gratification" and instant disposability" too.
As an avid A.I fan and big Fantasia fan too,I think that she is probably the WY of her genre i.e. will actually HAVE a career selling albums,and I think she will also "Cross-over" from the mainstream billboard chart to sell in all the many and varied "Black charts" (there's about 10 I can think of)she is very TV and Radio friendly,in short probably a promoters dream ticket...sassy,cool,and best of all actually TALENTED!
There's no doubt that this format PI/XF is indeed a very cruel master,it just chews 'em up and spits 'em out...when was it not,eh?
Yes it seems the RTV wheat AND the chaff get used up at an alarming rate...i.e. where are GG MM Sarah Whatmore et al now?
In summary it would seem IMHO the PI/XF mantra should be "Great T.V. lousy long term career move...........for most."
Anyone agree?

The thing is... shows like this aren't new!!

Probably some of you are too young to remember the show Opportunity Knocks (which was used by Ant and Dec on last week's "takeaway" show)

Ever heard of Les Dawson, Little & Large, Frank Carson, Freddie Starr?

All winners of that show Once you've won it, it's what you do afterwards that counts. The thing with Will, and all those mentioned above, is that they transcend all ages. People from 6 to 60 like them. Gareth, on the other hand, was mostly teen market material.

For the losers, the week in week out screen coverage is what makes these people famous... once you're off the screen for a couple of months, the fanbase starts to dry up.

(Who can remember half the Pop Idol 1/2 contestants now?)

I agree with you Zip, although I love all these reality tv shows...it seems as if the winners and runners up don't seem to be getting very far afterwards I'm still hoping for Susanne (Pop Idol) to get snapped up (of course! )...which is possible I guess...but it doesn't look like happening anytime in the very near future...Michelle seems to have disappeared, as do Sam and Mark (unless you count their presenting job )....I don't think I'll find myself getting emotionally involved with the X factor like I did with PI..although we shall see..I do have a very soft spot for Steve! ....but sadly, I think you might be right about the reality tv stigma....but hopefully this show might produce an artist/band that is as successful as Will Young has been! I sure hope so!

Sally x

<Wow...how many ........s did I use in that post?! >

That is exactly how I feel about it. Well put.

Les D, L&L, FC and FS were not singers (in the main) and they did not fight for top albums in the 'serious' pop charts. Also...there's something different about breaking into that market than in the comedy show world in the 70s.

Come to think of it, I can't remember ON or New Faces with many huge sucesses that continue to be household names. Did Michael Ball win one of those?

For some of the people on these shows it is the only way to get noticed.
Yes they run the risk of being shunned by the radio stations etc because they came from reality tv but it's not an easy ride.
I am a big fan of one of the contestants of this years FA. They are talented IMO and have worked their arse off in the last year but unless you are a fan you wouldn't know they were still around.
Airplay....don't get me started on that one.

As big a fan as I am of Will Young I honestly believe that he wouldn't be where he is today if Gareth had won PI.

That's a very interesting point. D'you think Will being the 'first' has anything to do with it? Also....would GG have done any better?

What makes Will a PI survivor?

interesting comment... I would love to know what prompted you to take the decision not to buy music from artists who originally appeared on a reality show.
I know it's something which quite a number of people have decided to do and I struggle to understand it. I generally buy music if I like it and don't if I don't. I'm not trying to get at anyone here, but I really am struggling with understanding the reason why it makes any difference how someone first came to my attention. Surely the music itself is what counts, not whether the artists are deemed to be credible or to have achieved public notice via 'acceptable' mean.

The pink pound!!
Seriously though..(what me?..with MY reputation!!)his gay fans are hugely loyal and actually buy the albums,and see him live in concert too....
Add to this the granny brigade who love him for being "so sensitive "and then his (coughs)Middle age ladies market he's got the bases covered,eh.
Like my Nan used to say "He seems like a very nice young man...very clean cut"
Off the top of your head does anyone know how many finalists from P.I. 1 and 2 still have record deals?I'd be VERY interested to find out.

This opinion is extremely biased as I am a Will fan.
I don't believe Will being the 'first' has anything to do with his success. He has a natural talent.
If GG had won, which to be honest was expected, then Will wouldn't have had all the exposure etc that comes from winning.
I think Will has done so well because his music transcends age groups.He has fans of all ages. Alot of them, like me are catergorised as "older" fans. We know what we like and are less likely to change our minds. (No offence to younger posters)
I don't think that GG would have done much better than he has already because it was mostly the younger people who voted for him and quite often their music tastes change. I know mine have.LOL.

I think undoubtedly these shows will find some very talented people , and some incredibly talented people like Fantasia may not for any number of reasons have managed to get a break like this without this sort of opportunity . I think if there is a genuine talent as in the case of Will Young and Fantasia then it ultimatley won't matter where they came from as long as they produce the goods . I'm more likely to buy one of their singles than someone like Britney as I feel personally invested in their career , and even if i didn't know about their musical roots , I'd probably still buy their music anyway as they are more than run of the mill performers

Yeah, agreed (I knew we'd agree on something ). I think if you take part in Pop Idol, and don't finish top 3, you are pretty much regarded as "damaged goods", and might well have totally stuffed any chance you have having a music career, no matter how talented you are. "Pop Idol failure" is never a great thing to have on a music CV.

It is better for the final 3, but not easy, if they have the talent and charisma to lose the "Pop Idol" realiity label, which I think Will Young has proved he has. Gareth and MM are finished, and Darius will probably get dropped soon - Pop Idol stars are treated even more like expendable commodities than regular pop stars, and a couple of average singles and they're out on their ear.

I think in Will Young, Pop Idol proves you can find talent, but as I've said in other posts, the public tend to vote for people for other reasons other than their talent, and show their sheeplike tendancies and are easily swayed by what Mr Cowell says.

I wonder if the "Pop Idol" stigma is why we perhaps why we didn't seem more talent in PI2. It's not that it's not out there, it's just wise enough not to take part.

I have really thought about this for a while and i have found it difficult to articulate my feelings. I would say though that i do think that it is a mainly a credibility thing. I also am not really that fond of the silver spoon approach.

I'm sorry for the shortness of this answer.

I do completely understand what you mean about the 'silver spoon' thing. I think PopIdol (and similar) winners/contestants are very much portrayed as having done things 'the easy way'. Personally however I do think that much of that view is simply a matter of media portrayal rather than fact. Admittedly some of the contestants of such shows are newcomers to the business and their public exposure comes very early in their careers. Others however have actually been striving to make it in the business by more conventional routes for many years but just haven't been able to get the break that they need. Recognition in the music business is a very chancy thing...it depends on many things, where you live, who you know etc...and there is also a large slice of luck involved too - being in the right place at th right time. Talent only plays a smallish part in it, lack of talent makes things much harder (although good presentation can go some way towards helping) but having talent is no guarantee to success.

I would also argue that success via a series of gruelling auditions and then a further series of live, pressurised TV performances is by no means an easy route, particularly compared to bands put together by music executives in suites and then backed up by aggressive marketing. many of the current credible stars have backgrounds far more dubious than some of the 'talent show' stars in terms of effort.

I do understand th temptation to listen favourably to bands who are regarded as credible, but I think much credibility is a function of the more successful marketing men at the record companies.

"and then his (coughs)Middle age ladies market he's got the bases covered,eh.



That's me(well, nearly) .....and proud of it.
Can you only be of a certain age to appreciate music?


As for your question PIV ...not many I should think. There weren't many that got them in the first place.
I was surprised that Hayley Evetts didn't get a record deal. She was so much more talented than Rosie Ribbons.
Whatever happened to Zoe Birkett? The next Soul diva.

Ok.....Joss Stone.

Now I KNOW that there is no need for JS to have entered PI or XF, however, just for the sake of argument, say she had just 'found' herself entering PI or XF...and won.

Would she be 'tainted' or would her talent see her through all the factors we've mentioned?

For the record, I think JS is hugely talented, stunning and great on stage...however, not my taste in voice or style, but she's outstanding.
Last edited by ZipGypsy : 20-10-2004 at 20:55