True - but then not everyone really wants to do competitive ballroom, and a ballroom dancer would never be able to train in classical ballet anyway unless they started at 5 or 6 years of age. Why would they?

Ballet is a profession after all and an art form, rather like being a professional classical musician.

I'm not sure ballroom dancing is, but then it's quite an insular world of it's own, isn't it?

Ah, competition ballroom. Small world in comparison to the actual dancing profession as a whole. Not something that would really appeal to a trained ballet dancer to be honest.

Disclaimer
This subject has been known to trigger shooting wars conducted with best intentions by both sides. Before I go any further I want to make clear I am a non-combatant carrying a white flag with UN mandate, Red Cross armbands etc.


At world championship level it is hard enough to keep both ballroom and latin going. Gaynor wanted to do ten dance but Donnie didn’t. Over the past 50 years only one couple won World Championship in both: Bill and Bobbie Irvine, 7 times ballroom and 2 times latin.

For a world-class ballerina in her prime to moonlight in ballroom and latin would be impractical, and never attempted. Whether Darcey at age 21 could have made a serious try would be an academic question. Now 42, retired and sporting a dodgy knee, Darcey with an ecumenical interest tries out Hollywood dance, and finds it delicious.

By consensus the best woman dancer Hollywood ever produced, Cyd Charisse at age 14 joined Ballet Rousse de Monte Carlo, later joining MGM to dance with Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly. Ballet switching into modern jazz dance is not the same as ballet converting into ballroom/latin world championship, but the following 3 clips illustrate Cyd's versatility and artistry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDHwJrbrp0Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuJxYmJlEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YWBOfsXsDA

In her autobiography, Cyd reflected on her experience with Astaire and Kelly:

Sofakat, a personal question, did you go to Arthur Murray by any chance for American ballroom? I "did" ballet from the age of 3 until I was 14, then ballroom at Uni for three/four years and then when I was working in London, I wnet to Arthur Murray which metamorphised into TD Dance studios. Once you have the dance bug and some basic training in whatever form, transition is easier. That being said, if someone has specialised and reached the very top in their style then it must be difficult to reach the same level in other genres which, I imagine, a lot of professionals would be striving for.

Of course not, just in the same way that social Ballroom and Latin wouldn't appeal at all to a competitive dancer either. It would surprise me even more for social dancing to appeal to a ballerina, though!


It certainly is, it's so unrelated to any other style of dance. Ballroom and Latin dancing is certainly a profession, hence why there are people out there walking around as millionaires because of it, however everybody has their own argument as to whether it is an art or a sport. Depends mainly if you are a WDSF member or a WDC member, I guess.

That is confroversial soulmate. The way Charisse's comments read, she appears to prefer Kelly to Astaire and I expect a lot of people would agree with her. I think Kelly's choreography would have been more suited to Charisse's ballet trained background. Personally I much prefer Astaire (so does my dance teacher).

So we all like and admire different styles. Sofakat loves lots of forms of dance but is not keen on competition latin and ballroom , Becca is a great fan of it, I also am although maybe Becca leaves me somewhat behind in that area. I have to admit that I am not overly keen on ballet sofakat. I can enjoy watching it, but not with any great passion and if I go to Covent Garden it would be more likely to be to watch and listen to opera! I guess the point I'm making is that it would be boring if we all liked and admired the same things. I do respect other people's preferences, but the bottom line is that what does it for some people doesn't work for others, and there isn't a right and wrong. Perhaps more cross over between the different genres would present more opportunities for innovation, but I agree that it doesn't really happen at the top of the professions. Dance styles evolve anyway, with ballroom and latin being very very different from Bill and Bobbie Irvine's day (why and how it came to be so different might be another subject for discussion I guess).

Ballet versus ballroom, Astaire versus Kelly, (not even got to Joanna versus Yulia yet).
Enough shooting for one night, Vivacious.

As a matter of fact --
Fred Astaire was born in 1899
Gene Kelly was born in 1912
Cyd Charisse was born in 1922

When the three supernovae converged for the films Band Wagon and Singing in the Rain 1952/53:

Cyd was 30
Gene was 40
Fred was 53.

Not only were they apples and oranges, but they were fruits bought at different times. There is no doubt Cyd had the greatest respect and admiration for Fred as well.

Its strange that even within dance, the ballet worlds and ballroom worlds that you talk about are so different to the commercial ones that some of my friends work in.


I bet you don't spend half your time looking at adverts for the latest pop video/ west end musical/ cruise ship that needs a dancer?

Thanks for mentioning this lovely programme - I caught it on iPlayer.

I adore Darcey Bussell but aspects of the programme annoyed me. The urgent voice-over "Darcey has JUST TWO WEEKS" ... (like TimeTeam and all the other shows with near-impossible deadlines) "She was advised to wait 8 months after the knee op but just 5 months later, she is ..." why? I really really hope she didn't jeopardise the knee.

Cyd Charisse was always my favourite, but I've always liked this, Leslie Caron at 20.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkN0e99mL1k

OT, but Vivacious Lady you don't happen to be a fan of James Stewart and Ginger Rogers do you?

Yes, well spotted!

Ballet dancers concentrate on ballet. They do Pilates and Gyrotonics and all manner of other exercises to increase stamina and fitness (for a professional ballet dancer a ballet class isn't acutally all that taxing in terms of fitness). Their schedule is relentless during the season and they wouldn't have time for other styles.

Some dancers can tap - Steven McRae for example - and this stems from pre-vocational ballet traning where a wide base of differing dance styles would be taught. Also in vocational school the traditional dances are sometimes taught and are an important part of the curriculum.

In some ballet's different styles of dance are called for, but ballet is so very specific in it's requirements that it doesn't generally pay to focus on different styles which really are very, very different not just in how they look but in how you approach training for them.

I know of some competitive ballroom dancers who do Pilates (not heard of Gyrotonics!) but it does seem that a fair proportion of instructors are ex ballet dancers. I recently started Pilates and was very sceptical beforehand regarding its effectiveness, but it is really great. Even after a few lessons I can see changes in my body.

Appreciate what you are saying about the need to focus on the requirements for ballet, but it has been nice to see your column in Ballet News reporting on Strictly Come Dancing and in a positive way.

I have heard that professional footballers are discouraged from taking up golf in the off season, presumably a sport requiring instantaneous reactions could do without the slow, deliberate habits of golf.

I saw an old clip showing Dame Ninette de Valois banging a fearsome stick on the floor at White Lodge . Is there a feeling among ballet establishment that other forms of dance could distract from or undo the discipline of ballet?

Isadora Duncan broke away, so did Martha Graham. Cyd Charisse achieved far more in jazz dance than in ballet. Strictly including the slapstick part has now gained nationwide, indeed international populist acceptance where ballet has not. Is there any change of attitude on the ballet side to look again at dance heretics?

I doubt it, there has been a move to populise ballet over the last few decades with lots of adult beginners/ intermediate classes all over the place. But the fact remains that anyone who hasn't started way before puberty cannot get to any sort of reasonable level in ballet.

Whereas with most other dance forms including it seems ballroom, you can start a bit later and still get to quite a high level?


I'm not sure about the whole breakaway modern dance thing. Most people think of dance as dancing to nice mucic, not sitting on a chair in a tube dress and moving to the beat of a drum?

I would say the absolute cut off point to reach top level in Ballroom and Latin would be around the age of 13 or 14 - of course there are also quite a few well-known exceptions to this in the shape of top level dancers who began a little later, although not by very much.

But its not about reaching the top level, its about the average man or woman in the street watching it on TV or on stage and thinking 'I could do that'. Even if people don't reach the top level, only a reasonable level. I don't think people can do that with ballet. I'm not sure if people can do that with jazz either.

Maybe with they can with hip hop?

I suppose a reasonable level would mean something different to each individual, as everyone's goals within dance vary so much.

It sounds like an interesting program and I've just skimmed through it so far on iPlayer, but I'll watch it all the way through. I know practically nothing about dance, but its always interesting to see how people learn things.

I remember reading somewhere Pasha Kovalev saying it can be more difficult to teach a celeb who has ballet training, and although there seems to be benefits from some aspects - maybe particularly arms, hands, turns etc.? - it seems too much ballet starts becoming a handicap.

I did notice that Darcey's walk surprised me when she was walking down a street toward the camera in the red dress. Her legs walk very parallel to each other, which seems quite different from the way a latin dancer tends to walk. Would that be related to ballet training?

The iPlayer link.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ces_Hollywood/

Ballet dancers are trained to walk with their feet at "ten to two" this isn't usual for many people although some people may naturally walk like that or be pigeon-toed.
Catwalk models all walk with their feet in a straight line and some often in an exaggerated "cross-over" stepping action, I'm surprised some don't trip themselves up. But in all situations, "it's the job."
Ballroom dancers have a particularly exaggerated walking style, particularly in Latin, they'd look daft walking like that in the street. It's just an "application."

You even notice the occasional exaggerated "ten to two" foot-falls in some top class sprinters some with one foot more displaced than the other, when the TV cameras give head-on shots. Though there should be some outwards displacement, as when running the power from the legs pass through the balls of the feet.

As running was a former interest of mine, I'm somewhat amused at some joggers I pass, (in my car) when they are running on pavements, whose leg cadence and foot positioning remind me a bit of "Roger Rabbit."

I'm sure a few people would be surprised if they looked down and viewed the positioning of their feet when out walking or jogging.

I would imagine that Darcy either naturally walks as she does in her off-stage life, or has trained herself to walk that way, as the "ten to two" makes people look like a duck.

The combination of the knee and ankle joint allows considerable latitude of where the foot is positioned and it's controlled by the brain.

Perhaps after BBC4's excellent "Come Clog Dancing: Treasures of English Folk Dance" programme we can have "Darcey Bussell dances Newcastle"?

Or as she does some promotions for retailers, how about?

"Darcy Bussell's top ten handbags to dance around."

[quote=Doghouse Riley;55559338]Ballet dancers are trained to walk with their feet at "ten to two" this isn't usual for many people although some people may naturally walk like that or be pigeon-toed.

Catwalk models all walk with their feet in a straight line and some often in an exaggerated "cross-over" stepping action, I'm surprised some don't trip themselves up. But in all situations, "it's the job."

Ballroom dancers have a particularly exaggerated walking style, particularly in Latin, they'd look daft walking like that in the street. It's just an "application."

The most impressive girls walks I see in daily life are like a subtle version of a latin american dancers walk.

The walk of Darcey's I was referring to is at 49:15 in the film.

That's just one small aspect of what was a very interesting program. I like the old musicals - they had style and style never goes out of style.