Ah, reasoned explanations is where conspiracy theorists tend to fail in the real world, but conversely the lack of reasoned explanations just seems to strengthen their belief in their conspiracy theory (in that, the more that reasonable argument is used to disprove a conspiracy theory, the more the conspiracy theorists believes in that theory - the old "ah, that's what they want you to believe" argument).

Mystical123,

I'm grateful for the number of responses I've received to my original post, but they present a problem in that it would take me ages to address each and every point made by every person who has responded.

A quick glance would seem to indicate that a number of those who have responded are die-hard fans of Harry who are completely blind to his limitations as a dancer. It seems of little value to others who use this forum for me to engage these people, as anything I say to them is likely to fall upon deaf ears, and lead to significant cluttering of this thread.

As you have been kind enough to contribute several responses it would be really useful for me to be able to gauge your degree of objectivity, so that I can assess the value of your contributions. Would you mind elaborating a little upon the following assessment you made of Chelsee's Rumba? -

(Quote) Her Rumba was littered with mistakes - I saw loss of balance several times, she had to correct foot positioning quite obviously at one point so she could do the next step, and she kept looking at the floor. Her Jive kicks weren't technically correct - she was kicking towards the ceiling when she should have kicked towards the floor - and her hands were flat. (Unquote)

I must have viewed that Rumba a dozen times at least - a number of times with the specific purpose of identifying the errors to which you and others have alluded. I've been unable to pinpoint a single error. But far more importantly, the judges comments and marks suggested strongly that her performance was error-free, apart from the customary deduction of a mark by Craig for what he classes as an illegal lift. Specifically -

Craig - "You pulled that out of the bag darling - I thought it was absolutely magnificent".
Len - "Because it's so slow everything is magnified, every detail. And I watched that and there was nothing I could see I didn't like"
Bruno - "You NAILED that Rumba - expressive, fluid, musical ..."

Before I offered the initial argument in this thread I reviewed most of the judges' verdicts on Harry's performances to ensure that I wasn't selling him short. Given that there were around 60 individual verdicts I saw surprisingly little praise of specific skills in his performances. Strong back, wide elbows, posture, timing, musical phrasing, and footwork were singled out for praise - but I don't recall a single instance of praise of his lines, the use of his arms, the positioning of his head, fluidity or characterisation. The majority of those verdicts comprised ambiguous comments such as "tight, muscular performance", "you can dance!", "princely charms", "talented", "fallen in love with you" etc.

My point here is that the judges have demonstrated on numerous occasions their ability to imply approval of a performance without having to lie about it.

If what you say about Chelsee's Rumba is true, it means that the judges were lying through their teeth - when there was simply no need for them to do so. Why would they lie?

apenny4them, I think it is rather patronising to suggest that anyone who thought Harry deserved to win is lacking in objectivity (as opposed to yourself that is).

When someone is learning to dance ballroom in particular, strong back, wide elbows, posture, timing and footwork are probably the MAJOR things that their instructor concentrates on getting right. (Most of these are also important for latin too) These are by no means trivial and even top level dancers spend lots of time trying to improve these aspects. So if they were commented on in respect of Harry's dancing, then these would be significant positive points.. (And if fact Harry did have a very strong core, probably due to his occupation as a drummer which was big advantage in both his ballroom and latin) Also to be clear, footwork doesn't just involve using heel, toes etc at the right time, but also on other less obvious aspects such as exerting correct foot pressure, correct transfer of weight, rolling through the foot in ballroom (which aids movement and balance and may have been one of Chelsee's weaknesses) and so on. Since some of these details are quite technical the judges would not have been gone into in great detail unless the BBC wanted to send their audience to sleep, but are no less important.

In addition the judges do not have to go through a checklist of everything that was right about someone's dancing. They concentrate on noting the strengths, that is if they say much at all. I'm sure there have been instances where judges have said very little about obviously strong performances but have marked highly.

If the number of errors specifically mentioned by judges was that siginficant, then there would have been times when Russell should have been top of the board, since I'm sure there were lots of time where the judges did not identify any mistakes or areas for improvement in his dancing. (If not Russell, Alex or Robbie)

[quote=apenny4them;55636838]Mystical123,

A quick glance would seem to indicate that a number of those who have responded are die-hard fans of Harry who are completely blind to his limitations as a dancer. It seems of little value to others who use this forum for me to engage these people, as anything I say to them is likely to fall upon deaf ears, and lead to significant cluttering of this thread.

I think I might find it slightly offensive that any post in support of Harry is deemed to be cluttering up your thread(particularly as your original post was very specifically about your view of his dancing ability or lack of it)

Think we need to be careful to be respectful to the views of other forums users and to all of those who have responded to this thread.

Honey, Chelsee and Pasha WON (in parallel universe # 6 trillion and 32). Here's the proof:


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Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Fakenham. (A pun.)

Services: Good news messenger from Parallel Universe # 6 trillion and 32.

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Chelsee And Pasha Win Strictly - Then Get Engaged On The Dancefloor!

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Finally! I've fished out that copy of The News Of The World from the portal into parallel universe # 6 trillion and 32 (where Chelsee and Pasha WON.) In this world, there never was a phone hacking scandal which is why The News Of The World is still in circulation. Oh, and you might notice some of the names are slightly different here, but in most other ways it's just like our world. Anyway, here's the front page report:

Chelsee And Pasha Win Strictly - Then Get Engaged On The Dancefloor!

Last night Trafalgar Road star Chelsee Heelee, 23, together with her Russian dance partner Pasha, who (like Madonna, Bjork and Napoleon) has only one name, were crowned the winners of Strictly Come Dancing 2011. They beat Harry Jugg, 25, drummer with has-been pop band McFlea, and his partner Alioniana Vilanovnakova in a thrilling final which included a wide variety of dance styles, from rock 'n' roll (via a Shrek-themed jive for which Pasha had to be painted blue*) to a Beyonce/John Travolta disco-inspired showdance, followed by a sensuous rumba, and ending with a crisp quickstep with a late-for-my-plane storyline. Harry and Alioniana did some dancing, too.

When the winners were announced Chelsee jumped into Pasha's arms and they whirled around the floor shouting 'Yes! Yes! Yes!' but crestfallen McFlea members in the audience swore loudly and declared the competition 'a fix'. Amid the raucous scenes of celebrations a loud bang could be heard, as the McFlea delinquents stormed out of the ballroom, slamming the door behind them. Reports of them urinating up the side of the building are unconfirmed.

When the jubilant scenes had died down, host Tess Weekly asked a beaming Chelsee how it felt to be the 2011 champion. 'It's the best thing that's ever happened to me,' she sobbed, then turned to Pasha (the bookies' favourite to win next year's coveted Rear Of The Year award) for reassurance, asking 'innit, Pash?' causing the dishy Russian with the scrumptious rump to rock back on his heels with laughter.

Tess then turned to Pasha, asking if he had anything he wanted to say to 'his girl Chelsee'. The Siberian heart-throb then dropped down on one knee, produced a ring from his pocket and popped the question! The audience gasped then cheered rapturously when Chelsee again shouted 'Yes! Yes! Yes!'

But the mood in the Jugg/Vilanovnakova camp was subdued. Many thought the Essex drum-basher was a dead cert to win, and questions will now be asked as to why their 'robust' PR campaign failed. The News Of The World hacked into Jugg's phone account** and found the following angry call to McFlea Party Headquarters: 'What kind of a manager are you? You obviously didn't do enough canvassing, you f***er! I posed in my knickers for that queer mag, and for what?'

As the ballroom emptied and the mammoth task of cleaning up sequins and glitter and smears of sticky fake tan commenced, the happy couple could be seen waltzing towards their luxurious Travel Lodge room with Pasha whispering seductively in Chelsee's ear 'Look into my eyes and dance with me.'


* the colour green does not exist in this world
** oh dear.

regardless of the fact that the OP thinks there is alternative theories as to why Harry won, the simple fact is that he did win

The GBP wanted him to win - end of

Why is that so difficult for the OP to grasp?

I find it very patronising that you wish to assess the value of my contributions in terms of how objective I am. No one person's opinion (for that is what all this is), is more valuable than any other, including your own. I find it very strange that you are looking for objectivity in others' posts whilst displaying a clear bias against Harry yourself.

Seeing as you asked though, I voted for Harry and Jason in the final, which was the first time I had voted all series. I didn't have a clear favourite until Harry danced his QS first time round, and from then on I supported Harry & Aliona. This is the series I've enjoyed least since I started watching in series 4, and I think none of this year's finalists would do well in a competition against many other finalists from previous years, such as my all time favourites Alesha & Matthew, and others such as Jill & Darren, Ricky & Natalie (who I can see were the best dancers that year even though I supported Chris & Ola), Mark & Karen, Kara & Artem etc.

my voting in the final was based on the fact that I loved Harry's QS (although as I pointed out in my original post, I saw a flaw which would have precluded a 10 mark in anything other than the final, so please don't think I'm biased to the point of being blinded as to Harry's flaws, which I'm afraid you seem to be about Chelsee), loved Kristina's choreography for Jason's showdance, and thought Chelsee's Jive was poor and her showdance even worse.



For reference, this is the video to which my timings refer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPKmxgGXJ-4

43 and 45 seconds in: stumble when changing feet to do another set of splits - it was messy. From that point up until 50 seconds it looked constantly as if she was going to fall over, the steps were rushed and not at all fluid.

51 seconds: a step out of time, she was rushing. Wobble at 53 seconds.

1.08 she hestiated and Pasha had to push her around.
Illegal lift was at 1.37, and she was off-balance at 1.40. 1.44 she had to fix her foot positioning to be in the correct place for the next step (or else it was a planned step done off-time)

Many of those are being picky, but they were errors nonetheless, and I did watch the whole thing feeling as if it was all far too fast for her and she was about to fall over, never mind that she looked terrified the whole time. The same thing happened in her showdance. I'm not saying that any other dancer would have done any better - I think only Cherie, Rachel, Jill, Pamela and Kara would have done (Alesha did her Rumba week 1 so I can't count her) out of all the female celebs on Strictly - but the point is that it was by no means perfect.

I noticed that you've quoted a part of my post that also refers to her Jive containing errors - have you given it the same treatment you have her Rumba?



Ah, there's your problem with my analysis - you believe that because the judges' comments were good, that it was perfect, when that is simply not the case. There have been many instances of dances scoring very highly, even scoring 40, when they simply were not perfect.

As I pointed out earlier, Harry's QS in the final was not perfect. Chelsee's Paso was not perfect, she stumbled badly in it. Jason's AT was a million miles from perfect. Pamela Stephenson's Quickstep from last year scored 40 when I didn't think it was perfect (and I liked her, so no bias there). As I pointed out in my original post, the judges are always going to be effusive and complimentary in the final, because their scores don't count anyway, and it's more a celebration of the series than anything else. They don't want the audience booing every single comment, which is what happened when Len made a negative comment about Alesha's Waltz in the series 5 final - he hasn't made a negative comment in a final since!


Because it's the final, and because it's TV - no dancer is ever going to reach technical perfection in such a short space of time, so sometimes they have to just pretend that there was basically nothing wrong with it, especially on final night when there's no point in knocking down an already very nervous dancer.


I note that many other points in my original post and many others' posts have been left unaddressed. I think that given people took the time to respond to your theory, you should perhaps give them the courtesy of a response as well rather than patronisingly suggesting that their valid counter-arguments are not worthy of your attention because they support Harry. This forum is not just for those who agree with your opinion.

Thanks - but we're no further forward. ....the final.

It may be worth bearing in mind that Kristina is a BBC employee - as are the four judges.[/quote]


Absolute balderdash!! Being booked to appear on a BBC show definitely does not make you an employee!!! All the pro dancers and the four judges were booked for a fee, just like the celeb contestants.
For conspiracy theories you'll have to look elsewhere!

I liked Harry and Chelsee with my favourite changing weekly.

My honest opinion on the final is this;
Harry led the field after the first two dances
Jason was second but only marginally behind Harry
Chelsee was in third place and was saved by the likes of me who voted her because she had progressed more than the other two had during the series.

Afted all the dances, Harrynwas clearly the best on the night. Agree with those who have commented on Chelsee's many foot adjustments. Also for an actress, I felt she lacked acting skills in some of her dances,

The same could be said about Harry who on occasion left his emotions at home! That could not be said about his final performances. The only one I wasn't keen on was his show dance. Too many lifts and not enough dance. Jason was ahead on this particular dance with Chelsee second. She could have improved her score if she didn't make so many mistakes throughout the show dance.

I don't buy your conspiracy theory OP. Harry won and that's that. SCD is not just a dance competition and I'd like to see the dancing become more important than the personalities, but I can't see that happening? Yes Harry may have had some extra votes because people found him pretty to look at, but people like myself, may have voted on Chelsee because she has technically come so far as a dancer? That's the way it goes. Try and accept it or post absolute evidence that the show was fixed for Harry.
Last edited by cezzy : 03-01-2012 at 00:23

You'd have thought this non-sensical thread would have been dropped to bottom of the page (or page 2) by now with all the many "Alesha" threads in the last 24 hours....

[and yes I do know Im bumping it for no reason]

I don't think that they completely fix it for anyone to win. What they seem to do is to make some choices that help, some people. For example, both Holly and Jason were in the bottom two but Alex wasn't. There were then some choices made to help the other two along a bit. Many viewers are very susceptible to what they're told and they don't evaluate what they're watching. They accept that whatever the judges say, it must be accurate or they wouldn't be judges.
That's what some newspapers rely on and what many adverts rely on. Harry was worthy of winning I think so any possible little adjustments didnt need to be made and shouldn't have been made. I didn't vote for him and wasn't bothered about who won or not but his achievements in learning to dance so well were obvious. Any sign of perhaps helping along was just annoying. The lad was capable of winning by entirely his own work.

I would have thought you would have taken what comes out of the judges, Bruces and Tess's mouth each week with a shovel full of salt.
Each year - this is the best series ever (cannot even bother to say anything to this)

Each Year X could be a profeesional dancer - no they couldn't, most contestents are just good at learning a routine, some are better at hiding mistakes but none of them could honestly make it as a professional dancer they do not have the experience, they only have a spark of natural talent.

Scores and comments in the final has always been a love fest it is not the time to bitch about performance as no one can do better next week.

What is said by the judges is for effect it is rarely that constructive. This is the entertainment part for some!!

As for a conspiracy, well there are better ones around like Elvis lives!!