[RebelScum]

Originally Posted by T.K. Mazin

Okay… so it’s my problem because I can’t wrap my head around a silly explanation of coincidence lol? An explanation that neither the show itself nor Lindelof himself has indicated - FACT. I think you’re the one with the problem, because you can’t seem to handle my view on it and continuously try and dismiss my points and accuse me of not being satisfied. The fact you’re getting all prickly about it is proof of that.

I'm getting pricky? Read your last post again and tell me who is sounding prickly. Yes, you have a problem because as you have stated numerous times in this thread you are having a hard time coming up with an answer that satisfies you. That's your problem, personally I have an answer that satisfies me. Disimiss my answer all you want, as you have been doing, it's not very mature or respectful, but at the end of the I couldnt care less if you do. Now, as I said in my last post I fully accept and respect your point of view, so why on earth would you come back with a claim that I can't handle your view, when it doesnt affect me in any way whatsoever? Strange.

Where on Earth did you get the idea that I think I could do a better job? I’ve never said anything like that nor indicated toward that. All I was saying was comparing Lost to real life doesn’t work – why get all defensive about it? Things don’t just happen for no reason in TV shows, especially something as extreme as meteor rocks flying out the sky and destroying things. Maybe if it was a TV show about space exploration or along those lines - then it would make a bit more sense.

Actually comparing certain aspects of Lost to real life does work, you just dont see it that way. In may ways it works more so than in other programmes.

Why does it have to make sense? I've listed three out of a number occasions when that actually happened in real life. It just happens, get over it.

If youre asking for a reason for the meteor falling, from a narrative point of view, then it's quite simple;
The meteor's purpose was to deepen Hurley's paranoia about the numbers and his sense of bad luck - to get him on a plane to Australia. Up until then the things that he perceived to be bad luck had actually been run of the mill things - mother's broken ankle, elderly relative dying, house burned - yes all tragic, but hardly "out of this world" events. The meteor was. It was a big and unusual enough event for him to want to explore the numbers in more depth and travel to Australia.

The coincidence/fate explanation could’ve been used to explain incidents such as how the Island moved, and how the time flashes happened as a result, how the characters were returned from the past to present day after detonating Jughead - with your logic of everything is just coincidence/fate, they all could’ve been explained away with that explanation. Yeah, sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it? So is the idea of explaining meteor rocks flying out of the sky as random, coincidental incidents in the context of the show. Okay, maybe that’s not as ridiculous as the above examples, but still. That’s the point I’m trying to make. I’m sure I could think of more examples too.

The island moved and the time flashed were a direct result of the wheel being dislodged. We know this, it's directly stated. Coincidence just doesnt come into it here at all.

I dont see coincidence as a likely explanation for the characters being returned to their right time, that was down to temporal mechanics (the rubber band effect), not coincidence.

Any more?

Yes, you are. LOL and now you wanna have a go at my life? Seriously? It’s sad that you feel the need to resort to a comment like that. Actually, I’ve had far from a sheltered life, but I’d say you’d be hard pressed find anyone in the world that has had THAT MUCH bad luck like Hurley, not of that extreme nature in such quick succession anyway. I don’t know what kind of life you’ve had to be honest. Sounds like a crazy one .

What extreme bad luck? He didnt break his ankle, he didnt die, he didnt burn in a fire,... he did suffer from depression, and that lead to him feeling responsible.

In the last week, an elderly aunt of mine had a stroke, a friend got sacked, and another got three points on her liscence...is that my bad luck? no it's not. Youre not getting that Hurley did not "suffer" bad luck, he just felt responsible for random events.

Okaaay… good counter-argument there.

It was good enough for Sigmund Freud, it's good enough for me.

I haven’t once disrespected you. What are you talking about? You’re the one who’s been increasingly getting more and more prickly by each post. How have I dismissed your answer? All I’ve basically said was the coincidence/fate explanation relies too much on, well… nothing. That’s not disrespect. I’m trying to argue the point. It’s a forum, so what’s the problem? If it means so much to you and I’m being that disrespectful to you, then why reply? . I did ask you in advance whether If I was annoying you or not and you replied you were up for a good-natured debate, so I don't know why you're suddenly getting so tetchy. What am I suppose to do? Just act like I agree with everything you say?

You havent been disrispectful to me personally, however, by dismising an answer, a well reasoned answer (even if you do not see it that way) you are not respecting someone elses point of view.

I sugest you calm down before you reply (if you reply). Sadly your posts have taken on a slighly less friendly attitude since yesterday, wich is shame. You have not taken some of my commets in the spirit they were meant, that's why I have ignored some of your more childish comments. I am happy to contiue this discussion but only once you are prepared to do so in an adult maner.

Regards

[Mandark]

We're still arguing about Lost after all this time. I just hope we can have another show like it. I'm still thinking up ideas!!

[T.K. Mazin]

Originally Posted by RebelScum

I'm getting pricky? Read your last post again and tell me who is sounding prickly. Yes, you have a problem because as you have stated numerous times in this thread you are having a hard time coming up with an answer that satisfies you. That's your problem, personally I have an answer that satisfies me. Disimiss my answer all you want, as you have been doing, it's not very mature or respectful, but at the end of the I couldnt care less if you do. Now, as I said in my last post I fully accept and respect your point of view, so why on earth would you come back with a claim that I can't handle your view, when it doesnt affect me in any way whatsoever? Strange.

Well, of course, I’m getting prickly now considering your last two posts to me have been just that. Selective memory, eh lol?
It’s hard to continue being good-natured when the person you’re talking to is going out of their way to be bad-natured toward you without being outright insulting. Before my last post, I did not make any negative comments toward you. So what did you expect?

Here we go again with the psychic reading… I’m NOT trying to come up with an answer for ANYTHING as there is nothing in the show that can help me with my particular questions in mind. As I stated in my previous post, the reason I responded to you in the first place was because I was pointing out that not all mysteries can be answered as you seem to think. It’s pointless on your part complaining that people aren’t looking hard enough for the answers in the show and connecting the dots between story threads, when there are certain mysteries such as the Numbers that are unanswerable – there are barely any dots to connect with this plot on the show (which was my original point). Unless you’ve played the Lost Experience, you won’t know what the Numbers are. But even then, the Lost Experience does not elaborate on the idea of it being a doomsday equation and why it is mystical in nature (I don’t even care about the how as the magic explanation is what it is). So you’re left with not much. Nevertheless, the fact that you have to go online to find out what the Numbers are defeats your point of “if you connect the dots on the show – you will find the answers”. That’s not the case.

Look, not once have I stated that you’re not free to believe in your coincidence/fate explanation for Hurley’s bad luck and I FULLY respect your view. But I am also free to debate that so called explanation, am I not? How is that dismissing your point? Did you hear me once laugh or mock it? No, I have not done anything of the sort. I don’t why you’re accusing me of that to be honest. The reason I accused YOU of not being able to handle my view was because every time I came back with a counter-argument to your view – the more prickly you got by each post. I honestly don’t know if it’s true, but it appears so. But really, let’s move on from this. It’s nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

Actually comparing certain aspects of Lost to real life does work, you just dont see it that way. In may ways it works more so than in other programmes.

Why does it have to make sense? I've listed three out of a number occasions when that actually happened in real life. It just happens, get over it.

I’m not saying Lost or fiction in general can’t be compared to real life from a social perspective and examine the parallels as it can provide good commentary on the world we live in. But comparing them to real life incidents is pointless, when an extreme incident like a meteor rock falling out of the sky happens in a TV show or movie – more often than not, there’s a reason as it plays a role in the story in some way. In real life, these incidents are considered random events of course. Additionally, there are certain random, coincidental incidents that are more common than others in life – meteor rocks falling out of the sky is not one of your common ones. A bird shitting on your head – a more common random coincidence. You can throw as many real life examples you want at me, but what are the chances of a meteor rock falling out of the sky tomorrow or next month or in a few months time – I’d say a very small chance. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

The island moved and the time flashed were a direct result of the wheel being dislodged. We know this, it's directly stated. Coincidence just doesnt come into it here at all.

I dont see coincidence as a likely explanation for the characters being returned to their right time, that was down to temporal mechanics (the rubber band effect), not coincidence.

Of course. Obviously, I’m not disputing these answers. You misunderstood what I was trying to get at. The point I was trying to make was that quite a few of the incidents (such as the examples I gave) in the show could’ve been explained away with your coincidence/fate angle which you used for Hurley’s bad luck. I gave you those examples to show you the ridiculousness of the idea of a meteor rock falling out of the sky as a random, coincidental event in the context of the show as strange as Lost can be sometimes.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

What extreme bad luck? He didnt break his ankle, he didnt die, he didnt burn in a fire,... he did suffer from depression, and that lead to him feeling responsible.

In the last week, an elderly aunt of mine had a stroke, a friend got sacked, and another got three points on her liscence...is that my bad luck? no it's not. Youre not getting that Hurley did not "suffer" bad luck, he just felt responsible for random events.

Yes, it didn’t happen to him directly of course. But all of those around him or his properties got hurt or destroyed and as his net worth increased like with the other lottery winners, so did these terrible incidents. All of the lottery winners in the show suffered similar pain and were not directly hurt either like Hurley. I see a pattern there, one that is too intentional to put it down to just sheer, random bad luck. Additionally, IIRC, one of the lottery winners made light of the fact that he never was directly hurt – but only people and things around him. I think it was the crazy lottery winner in the mental institute or the other winner who had a house in the middle of nowhere in the desert. Not totally sure. I’ll have to re-watch some old episodes to confirm this point. Regardless, the pattern here certainly gives the impression that the Numbers had some kind of negative effect on the lottery winners’ lives after winning, while not directly hurting them – but it did indirectly affect their mental status as the bad luck was causing them to go crazy and become obsessed with the Numbers.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

You havent been disrispectful to me personally, however, by dismising an answer, a well reasoned answer (even if you do not see it that way) you are not respecting someone elses point of view.

I sugest you calm down before you reply (if you reply). Sadly your posts have taken on a slighly less friendly attitude since yesterday, wich is shame. You have not taken some of my commets in the spirit they were meant, that's why I have ignored some of your more childish comments. I am happy to contiue this discussion but only once you are prepared to do so in an adult maner.

Regards

With all due respect, I haven’t dismissed your point as I’ve stated time and again. I’ve continuously said your answer has no basis because the show nor the creators themselves have indicated toward this answer and I honestly think that’s a fair thing to say. As for being well-reasoned, the only thing you’ve basically said to back up your point is that fate is one of the show’s main themes, therefore that means Hurley’s so called “bad luck”was being by nothing but coincidence – that’s not very convincing to me, but I wholeheartedly respect the view. Just because fate is central throughout the show, it doesn’t automatically mean that’s the answer. I think it would be wrong to assume that IMHO. I’m not dismissing the point, I’m trying to debate it. Believe me, if there was anything on the show that pointed toward that answer – I would be the first to embrace it.

My posts have become unfriendly? Please read the first paragraph. If I came across unfriendly yesterday that was only because I thought you were becoming more bad-natured by each post. I’ve no clue why you’re accusing me of being immature, when your last post stated personal remarks toward me such as me supposedly having a sheltered life, me being in denial and accusing me for no reason that I think I could do a better job than the Lost writers – that’s the only reason I responded with sarcastic comments in my previous post. But nevertheless, I apologise. I don’t want to turn this into a never-ending argument where nobody wants to back down. If we are going to debate, let’s keep it about the topic at hand about the Numbers. Not all this other stuff about who disrespected who or comparing Lost to real life or continuously accusing me of not being satisfied with whatever - we'll have to agree to disagree on these things I suppose.

[T.K. Mazin]

double post.

[RebelScum]

Originally Posted by T.K. Mazin

Well, of course, I’m getting prickly now considering all your last two posts to me have been just that. Selective memory, eh lol?

Not at all. You assumed I was being prickly, and you responded in kind. Lesson here is to never assume another poster's intend/tone/mood.

It’s hard to continue being good-natured when the person you’re talking with is going out of his way to be bad-natured toward you without being outright insulting. Before my last post, I did not make any disrespectful comments to you. What did you expect?

If someone says bad things don't happen with regular frequency, then it is perfectly reasonable to wonder if that person has lived somewhat of a sheltered life.

If you want to take offense to that, by all means do so.

Here we go again with the psychic reading… I’m NOT trying to come up with an answer for ANYTHING as there is nothing in the show that can help me with my particular questions in mind

You seemed pretty intent on trying to establish how the numbers being cursed could be answered.

As I stated in my previous post, the reason I responded to you in the first place was because I was pointing out that not all mysteries can be answered as you seem to think. It’s pointless on your part complaining that people aren’t looking hard enough for the answers in the show and connecting the dots between story threads, when there are certain mysteries such as the Numbers that are unanswerable – there are barely any dots to connect with this plot on the show (which was my original point).

Unanswerable to you. I have an answer and offered it to you.

Unless you’ve played the Lost Experience, you won’t know what the Numbers are. But even then, the Lost Experience does not elaborate on the idea of it being a doomsday equation and why it is mystical in nature (I don’t even care about the how as the magic explanation is what it is). So you’re left with not much. Nevertheless, the fact that you have to go online to find out what the Numbers are defeats your point of “if you connect the dots on the show – you will find the answers”. That’s not the case.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said "if you connect the dots on the show". I said if you conect the dots. I also said Lost was a show that embraced multimedia. The multimedia element was there for fans who wanted to explore more about certain aspect of the show, such as Dharma's connection to the numbers. That falls under connecting the dots. (No doubt you'll dissagree about that too, so let's save some time by agreeing to dissagre).

I’m not saying Lost or fiction in general can’t be compared to real life from a social perspective and examine the parallels as it can provide good commentary on the world we live in. But comparing them to real life incidents is pointless, when an extreme incident like a meteor rock falling out of the sky happens in a TV show or movie – more often than not, there’s a reason as it plays a role in the story in some way.

It did play a role, as explained in my last post. It strengthened Hurley's sense of bad luck. After that he decided to get on a plane to Australia, and the rest is history.

By the way I am still curious to know if you are still thinking that the numbers were cursed, or if having considered all the facts, are of the opinion that they werent cursed at all, and it was all down to Hurley's perception of events (which he had a history of, even before the numbers)

In real life, these incidents are considered random events of course. Additionally, there are certain random, coincidental incidents that are more common than others – meteor rocks falling is not one of your common ones. A bird shitting on your head – a more common coincidence. You can throw as many real life examples you want at me, but what are the chances of a meteor rock falling out the sky tomorrow or next month or in a few months time – I’d say a very small chance. Sorry to burst your bubble

.

I never said it was likely to happen anytime soon. You seemed quite ademant that it's something that could never happen. I was demonstrating that it can and does happen from time to time.

Of course. Obviously, I’m not disputing these answers. You misunderstood what I was trying to get at. The point I was trying to make was that a lot of the incidents (such as the example I gave) in the show could’ve been explained away with your coincidence/fate angle which you used for Hurley’s bad luck. I gave you those examples to show you the ridiculousness of the idea of a meteor rock falling out of the sky as a random, coincidental event in the context of the show.

I've read this a few times and it still doesnt make sense to me. I'm sure you know what you mean though. Sorry, I'll just move on.

Yes, it didn’t happen to him directly of course. But all of those around him or his properties got hurt or destroyed and as his net worth increased, so did these terrible incidents. I would count that as my bad luck if that happened to me in the space of a few weeks or months. All of the lottery winners in the show suffered similar pain and were not directly hurt either like Hurley. I see a pattern there, one that is too intentional to put it down to just sheer, random bad luck. Additionally, IIRC, one of the lottery winners made light of the fact that he never was directly hurt – but only people and things around him. I think it was the crazy lottery winner in the mental institute or the other winner who had a house in the middle of nowhere in the desert. Not totally sure. I’ll have to re-watch some old episodes to confirm this point. Regardless, it certainly gives the impression that the Numbers had some kind of negative effect on the lottery winners’ lives after winning, while not directly hurting them – but it did indirectly affect their mental status as the bad luck was causing them to go crazy and become obsessed with the Numbers.

Ah, well, get back to me when you know the facts. Youre trying to make a specific point based on things you have no specific memory of.

With all due respect, I haven’t dismissed your point as I’ve stated time and again. I’ve continuously said your answer has no basis because the show nor the creators themselves have indicated toward this answer and I honestly think that’s a fair thing to say. As for being well-reasoned, the only thing you’ve basically said to back up your point is that fate is one of the show’s main themes, therefore that means Hurley’s so called “bad luck”was being by nothing but coincidence – that’s not very convincing to me, but I wholeheartedly respect the view. Just because fate is central throughout the show, it doesn’t automatically mean that’s the answer. I think it would be wrong to assume that IMHO. I’m not dismissing the point, I’m trying to debate it. Believe me, if there was anything on the show that pointed toward that answer – I would be the first to embrace it.

BIB - Agreed. But, add to that Hurley's history of blaming himself for bad things happening, and a pattern emerges. You can ignore that pattern, or you can use it to form an opinion. I'll leave that up to you.

By the way, this isnt some crazy theory I've just pulled out of a hat. It's something many other people have also arrived at. And of course many other people havent.

[T.K. Mazin]

Originally Posted by RebelScum

Not at all. You assumed I was being prickly, and you responded in kind. Lesson here is to never assume another poster's intend/tone/mood.

As stated in the last paragraph of my previous post, I gave you the examples of why I responded negatively toward you. The tone was certainly not good-natured in those comments in my view and seemed a bit personal to me. I understand you feel frustrated at me, but there’s no reason to say I’m in denial and things like that. What’s there to assume? But I accept you meant no offense. Let's move on.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

If someone says bad things don't happen with regular frequency, then it is perfectly reasonable to wonder if that person has lived somewhat of a sheltered life.

If you want to take offense to that, by all means do so.

Yes, what I was trying to say was that on Lost – all these supposed incidents of bad luck were specifically happening to all the lottery winners and they were bonded by this fact. Indeed, Hurley already had a mess of a life before he won the lottery, but this run of bad luck became even more heightened when he won it and strangely extreme incidents occurred such as meteor rocks falling out the sky and a man dropping down from the air which Hurley witnessed from an office window. There was a pattern of bad incidents between them all as I said in my previous post. If you put them together, this makes it an out of ordinary set of circumstances. If it had only happened to Hurley – then your coincidence/fate point would have more leeway IMHO, but it didn’t.

As for real life... as far as I know, this has not happened to a bunch of lottery winners who played the same numbers lol. So I don’t think of it was fair of you to say that to me to be honest. How else am I suppose to take it? But I’d like to think you wasn’t trying to be offensive as I said.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

You seemed pretty intent on trying to establish how the numbers can be answered, or how your perceived run of bad luck that Hurley suffered could be answered.

No, I didn’t. I have no clue where this claim originated from. Please point toward any specific comments I made that gave you this impression, because I honestly don’t know what you’re referring to. I haven’t suggested how the Numbers CAN be answered nor how Hurley’s run bad luck CAN be answered. All my posts have been directed at proving my belief that the Numbers were indeed responsible for Hurley’s bad luck including the other lottery winners, and were not an act of coincidence/fate. Obviously, these posts originated from our original debate about the whether all the questions can be answered or not if you look hard enough for them. Nothing more.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

Unanswerable to you. I have an answer and offered it to you. I am waiting for something more substantial from you to offer ther than your lack of acceptance.

Okay, fair enough. But following your “connecting the dots” belief... my personal belief is that the Numbers cannot be connected to enough story threads to gain any sort of a answer to its many mysteries IMHO. If you hadn’t played the Lost Experience or read online about it, would you know that the Numbers were a doomsday equation called the Valenzetti Equation? I don’t think so. Sure, the show referenced it on the Hatch door as you said, but I doubt many would have saw the connection between the two things. So wouldn’t that seem unanswerable to you (if you hadn’t played the Lost Experience or read online)? That’s the point I’m trying to make. I was only responding to what you said.
On the point of my lack of acceptance… how can I accept something that I don’t agree with? Doesn't make sense to me. I'm fine with you not agreeing with the idea that the Numbers caused Hurley's run of bad luck. That's your choice. I only ask you to do the same for me, please.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said "if you connect the dots on the show". I said if you conect the dots. I also said Lost was a show that embraced multimedia. The multimedia element was there for fans who wanted to explore more about certain aspect of the show, such as Dharma's connection to the numbers. That falls under connecting the dots. (No doubt you'll dissagree about that too, so let's save some time by agreeing to dissagre).

Well, you were certainly giving the impression that’s what you meant, because not everybody is going to trawl around the Internet to find answers to things that really should have been answered on the show. And I’m sure you’re aware of that too. It’s only after I responded to you about the Numbers being unanswerable that you actually mentioned the multimedia aspect. But nevertheless, it was not my intention to put words in your mouth as I honestly thought that’s what you meant. Truce?

Originally Posted by RebelScum

It did play a role, as explained in my last post. It strengthened Hurley's sense of bad luck. After that he decided to get on a plane to Australia, and the rest is history.

By the way I am still curious to know if you are still thinking that the numbers were cursed, or if having considered all the facts, are of the opinion that they werent cursed at all, and it was all down to Hurley's perception of events (which he had a history of, even before the numbers)

Yes, from a character narrative point of view - it played a role (good point you made), but I believe one thing the show taught us from a mythology point of view is that seemingly coincidental/freak occurrences are often tied to the Island in some way (which the Numbers are tied to also), which characters like Desmond, Hurley and Jack learned. This run of bad luck happened to Hurley and happened to the other lottery winners – the pattern is undeniable IMHO, but it’s up to you to believe it or not, I’m not saying you have to. Yes, Hurley had bad luck before he won the lottery, but it got much more heightened afterward… and how do you explain the other lottery winners’ bad luck? There’s no getting around that IMHO.

Why are you dismissing my view? You’ve continously accused me of doing that and now you do it. I said I accept your view, please accept mine. What “facts” are there to consider lol? Coincidence/fate isn’t fact. I’m sorry. You have to give me more than that.
Yes, of course I still believe the Numbers are cursed. Obviously, not in the hokey pokey supernatural magic way that you see in movies like The Mummy and Pirates of the Caribbean. But these Numbers, in my view, had an negative effect on the lives of the lottery winners. Why and how this is, I’ve no clue as the show dropped this plot point half-way through the series and went onto linking the Numbers to the Candidates in the final season. I’ve already backed up my points on numerous occasions, so I’m sure you know what they are by now.
.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

I never said it was likely to happen anytime soon. You seemed quite ademant that it's something that could never happen. I was demonstrating that it can and does happen from time to time.

Yeah, when’s the last one happen again? Was it 1938 or something lol? I accept I gave the impression that it could never happen, but I was trying to convey the point that it is such an uncommon coincidence, hence show you the ridiculousness of it happening without any reason in a TV show (though I acknowledge the narrative point you made). I wasn’t trying to accuse of the BIB, but I accept that it appeared so. I apologise if you feel offended.

If a meteor rock did fell out of the sky and destroyed a fast food restaurant in real life, it would be such big news because of the fact it doesn’t happen often. Common coincidences are plausible enough to be random incidents in a TV show due to the regularity of their occurrences. But by the same token, uncommon ones like meteors falling out the sky are implausible enough to be not be considered random incidents in a TV show due to them not regularly happening.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

I've read this a few times and it still doesnt make sense to me. I'm sure you know what you mean though. Sorry, I'll just move on.

lol okay. Fair enough. But basically, I used those examples in my previous post to convey my point that coincidence/fate is too easy/convenient of an explanation to label Hurley’s run of bad luck with - considering that he’s not the only who suffered this. I don’t know if that makes any more sense to you lol. But I tried.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

Ah, well, get back to me when you know the facts. Youre trying to make a specific point based on things you have no specific memory of.

The intentional pattern alone here supports the point I’m trying to make that the Numbers had a heightened negative effect on the lottery winners’ lives after winning. But yes, I will look back at old episodes when I have time to further cement my point. But hey, at least I was honest about it, I’ve could just said that I was totally sure about watching that scene. I do have vague memories of it.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

BIB - Agreed. But, add to that Hurley's history of blaming himself for bad things happening, and a pattern emerges, You can ignore that pattern, or you can use to form an opinion. I'll leave that up to you.

By the way, this isnt some crazy theoryy I've just pulled out of a hat. It's something many other people have also arrived at. And of course many other people havent.

Indeed, Hurley did blame himself for bad things that happened throughout his life. But I can’t look past my view that the bad incidents became heightened all the more after he won the lottery. Same with the other lottery winners. If it only happened to Hurley, I most probably would agreed with your coincidence/fate answer.

I know it isn’t a crazy theory you’ve pulled out of nowhere. I told you before that I totally understand and respect your view, and I was aware of other people shared that view before this mad argument started between us lol. Please, believe that. But I have reservations about it, which you know about. If I come across as being dismissive or not accepting of that view, I apologise unreservedly, but it’s not my intention at all. All I was doing was questioning that view, but I wasn’t trying to stamp on it. I never set off thinking to myself, “Ah yes, what a crap answer, now let me just constantly dismiss it to piss RebelScum off”. Only trolls do that. I would like to think I’m not one. You have a natural flair for explaining your points in an intelligent and rational way and I respect that about you. But at the same time, you have to understand, I have my own way of thinking and looking at things as all of us do.

Truce?

[SillyBillyGoat]

Wow ... I pat you both on the back. I doubt I'd have the energy for such a debate.

[T.K. Mazin]

Originally Posted by SillyBillyGoat

Wow ... I pat you both on the back. I doubt I'd have the energy for such a debate.

LOL Haha . Hello there, Mr Billy Goat .

What can I say, me and RebelScum are likeminded in that sense .

[RebelScum]

Originally Posted by T.K. Mazin

Well, you were certainly giving the impression that’s what you meant, because not everybody is going to trawl around the Internet to find answers to things that really should have been answered on the show. And I’m sure you’re aware of that too. It’s only after I responded to you about the Numbers being unanswerable that you actually mentioned the multimedia aspect. But nevertheless, it was not my intention to put words in your mouth as I honestly thought that’s what you meant. Truce?

Of course I accept that not everyone is going to trawl through the internet to look for answers. Nor I would expect everyone to do so. However the information is there, available to anyone who wishes to explore this aspect. Some people will be happy to do so, others won’t be

Yes, from a character narrative point of view - it played a role (good point you made), but I believe one thing the show taught us from a mythology point of view is that seemingly coincidental/freak occurrences are often tied to the Island in some way (which the Numbers are tied to also), which characters like Desmond, Hurley and Jack learned. This run of bad luck happened to Hurley and happened to the other lottery winners – the pattern is undeniable IMHO, but it’s up to you to believe it or not, I’m not saying you have to. Yes, Hurley had bad luck before he won the lottery, but it got much more heightened afterward… and how do you explain the other lottery winners’ bad luck? There’s no getting around that IMHO.

Well, there is no pattern here because there were no other lottery winners. Hurley was the sole winner. No other people that we know of ever won the lottery with those numbers previously on the show.

Sam Tooney (the Australian woman’s husband) used the numbers to win a contest. He ended up committing suicide. But there were no other lottery winners who suffered bad luck.

I would also add, it is not uncommon for people who have won large amounts of money to feel the win has changed their lives for the worse. In fact, I recall reading about a young guy who committed suicide a couple of years ago because he felt winning the lottery had been the worse thing that had ever happened to him. He has not been the only one. Were his and other people’s numbers cursed? I don’t think so. It just seems it’s an aspect of the human nature that some people are prone to, whilst others are not.
With regards to his heightened sense of bad luck after winning the lottery: Prior to the win his life was pretty routine; work, hang out with best mate, home, work and so on. After the lottery win his life changed. He was exposed to more situations, more people, more events - good and bad. So take someone who has a history of blaming himself for bad things happening, open up his world and increase his exposure to the world, new people, new situations …and of course he’s going to feel his bad luck has increased, because good and bad things happen all around us. If someone feels they are responsible for bad things happening, the more people they know the more bad luck they are going to feel responsible for.

Why are you dismissing my view? You’ve continously accused me of doing that and now you do it. I said I accept your view, please accept mine. What “facts” are there to consider lol? Coincidence/fate isn’t fact. I’m sorry. You have to give me more than that.

I disagree that coincidence/fact isn’t fact. It is a fact of life and it is a fact on the show. Most of us experience coincidence on a daily basis. On the show the early season flashbacks were littered with coincidences.

Could you elaborate on why you don’t think coincidence or fate are not fact?

Yeah, when’s the last one happen again? Was it 1938 or something lol?

No, from the cases I listed 1992 was the most recent

I accept I gave the impression that it could never happen, but I was trying to convey the point that it is such an uncommon coincidence, hence show you the ridiculousness of it happening without any reason in a TV show (though I acknowledge the narrative point you made). I wasn’t trying to accuse of the BIB, but I accept that it appeared so. I apologise if you feel offended.

If a meteor rock did fell out of the sky and destroyed a fast food restaurant in real life, it would be such big news because of the fact it doesn’t happen often. Common coincidences are plausible enough to be random incidents in a TV show due to the regularity of their occurrences. But by the same token, uncommon ones like meteors falling out the sky are implausible enough to be not be considered random incidents in a TV show due to them not regularly happening.

As stated, the last one from the ones I listed was 1992. But that was a short list. There are many more; for example:

A man was killed on 28/02/2010 after being struck by a meteorite.
Other recent ones are (there are loads more though):

1971 – house struck in Wethersfield, USA
1977 – 3 buildings and a car hit in Louisville, USA
1982 – house struck in the same town as the 1971 incident (Coincidence!!)
1984 – mailbox hit in Claxton, USA
1984 – meteorite fell 4 meters from sunbathers in Autralia
1986 – several buildings hit in Japan
1991 – meteorite fell 3.5 metres from 2 children in Noblesville, USA
1992 – Boy hit in Uganda
1992 – Car hit in USA
1992 – House hit in Japan
1994 – Car and driver hit in Spain
2004 – House hit on New Zeland
2007 – Bathroom hit USA

As you can see there are more meteorite incidents than anyone would normally think there would be. As for making the news, these things are reported at the time, but they aren’t big news.

lol okay. Fair enough. But basically, I used those examples in my previous post to convey my point that coincidence/fate is too easy/convenient of an explanation to label Hurley’s run of bad luck with - considering that he’s not the only who suffered this. I don’t know if that makes any more sense to you lol. But I tried.

But I pointed out that the two examples you gave already had specific explanations, or had more likely explanations. Coincidence just doesn’t work for those examples, that’s why I can’t see were you were going with this. I don’t disagree that the coincidence/fate explanation for this issue isn’t convenient or easy, but why does it have be anything other than that?

Truce?

Gladly

[Liamforking]

Originally Posted by RebelScum

Of course I accept that not everyone is going to trawl through the internet to look for answers.

People shouldn't have to trawl through the internet, the answers should (drumroll) BE ON THE SHOW, otherwise it ain't much of a show is it?

[RebelScum]

Originally Posted by Liamforking

People shouldn't have to trawl through the internet, the answers should (drumroll) BE ON THE SHOW, otherwise it ain't much of a show is it?

People should be able to do what they want. Multimedia has redifined the ways stories can be told. Some will embrace it, others won't.

[T.K. Mazin]

Originally Posted by RebelScum

Of course I accept that not everyone is going to trawl through the internet to look for answers. Nor I would expect everyone to do so. However the information is there, available to anyone who wishes to explore this aspect. Some people will be happy to do so, others won’t be.

Agreed 100%. Also, sometimes the right information is difficult to find due to a lot of websites putting theories as official answers for some unanswered questions lol. But Lostpedia is quite trustworthy… I think.
But for the people who are not bothered to or can’t search around the Internet, you can’t exactly blame them when they turn around after watching the whole series and say, “Hey, we didn’t get answers to some of the major questions – that sucks!” - I that that would be a fair reaction to have. IMHO, the show should be answering those questions – you shouldn’t have to rely on an outside source for that, but I accept that’s just the way things are on Lost.
Don’t get me wrong, I think some of the smaller questions are fine left unanswered, because in the end, they are irrelevant to the big picture of the show. But major things like the Numbers should be answered in the show IMHO, not left up to a game or whatever. But sadly, the Lost Experience only explains WHAT the Numbers ARE, not much of anything else.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

Well, there is no pattern here because there were no other lottery winners. Hurley was the sole winner. No other people that we know of ever won the lottery with those numbers previously on the show.

Sam Tooney (the Australian woman’s husband) used the numbers to win a contest. He ended up committing suicide. But there were no other lottery winners who suffered bad luck.

I would also add, it is not uncommon for people who have won large amounts of money to feel the win has changed their lives for the worse. In fact, I recall reading about a young guy who committed suicide a couple of years ago because he felt winning the lottery had been the worse thing that had ever happened to him. He has not been the only one. Were his and other people’s numbers cursed? I don’t think so. It just seems it’s an aspect of the human nature that some people are prone to, whilst others are not.
With regards to his heightened sense of bad luck after winning the lottery: Prior to the win his life was pretty routine; work, hang out with best mate, home, work and so on. After the lottery win his life changed. He was exposed to more situations, more people, more events - good and bad. So take someone who has a history of blaming himself for bad things happening, open up his world and increase his exposure to the world, new people, new situations …and of course he’s going to feel his bad luck has increased, because good and bad things happen all around us. If someone feels they are responsible for bad things happening, the more people they know the more bad luck they are going to feel responsible for.

Oh yeah, you’re right. Hurley was indeed the only lottery winner. Sam Toomey and Leonard Simms heard the transmission of the Numbers and Tooney used them to win a contest with them as you said. Bad luck then seemed to befall those around them (as Lostpedia describes), which ended with Toomey’s suicide to end the “curse”. Hurley then heard it from Simms in the mental institute and used it to win the lottery, the same pattern of bad luck then began to happen to him as well. Is there not a pattern here? The fact that none of the bad luck directly happened to any of them and they all seemed to somehow come out of these terrible incidents without a scratch on them – I find that all very strange and a bit out of the ordinary. If it was only Hurley – indeed, your random coincidental angle would be very plausible to me.

So the pattern here does not lie with people who used the Numbers to win the lottery (as you rightly pointed out only Hurley did), but the people who heard the Numbers from the transmission (such as Toomey and Simms) or people heard it from someone else (like Hurley). It seems like Toomey and Simms were being used as a conduit by the Island/Jacob for Hurley in order to get him to the Island. After all, we know that Jacob associates each Number with each of the Candidates (including Hurley) and we also know he manipulated each of their fates from childhood to get them to the Island. The Numbers’ role/job in regards to Hurley, was to possibly manipulate Toomey and Simms in order to manipulate Hurley in order to get him to the Island. The Numbers were always connected to Hurley (due to Jacob) before he won the lottery, hence the bad incidents throughout his life, but it became heightened when he won the lottery in order to set him on his path to the Island.

I do accept and respect your view though, RebelScum. You put out a very intelligence case here.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

No, from the cases I listed 1992 was the most recent


As stated, the last one from the ones I listed was 1992. But that was a short list. There are many more; for example:

A man was killed on 28/02/2010 after being struck by a meteorite.
Other recent ones are (there are loads more though):

1971 – house struck in Wethersfield, USA
1977 – 3 buildings and a car hit in Louisville, USA
1982 – house struck in the same town as the 1971 incident (Coincidence!!)
1984 – mailbox hit in Claxton, USA
1984 – meteorite fell 4 meters from sunbathers in Autralia
1986 – several buildings hit in Japan
1991 – meteorite fell 3.5 metres from 2 children in Noblesville, USA
1992 – Boy hit in Uganda
1992 – Car hit in USA
1992 – House hit in Japan
1994 – Car and driver hit in Spain
2004 – House hit on New Zeland
2007 – Bathroom hit USA

As you can see there are more meteorite incidents than anyone would normally think there would be. As for making the news, these things are reported at the time, but they aren’t big news.

Wow. Fair enough, you’ve certainly strengthened your argument in the chances of it happening every now and then in everyday life. But the question is regarding Hurely/Toomey/Simms’s incidents of bad luck… were these random, coincidental events of natural life or the fate-manipulating actions of the Island/Jacob? This BIB was the point the previous paragraph was making. We know that Jacob can manipulate the fates of people in order to set them on their path to the Island and we know Hurley was one of his Candidates to replace him.

As stated before, seemingly random coincidental/freak occurrences have happened before to the characters off-Island and were often tied to the Island in some way in order to set them on their path to that location:
Jack seeing Christian’s ghost which makes him want to return to the Island, Desmond and Eloise watching a man get killed by a scaffolding and Eloise’s knowledge about course correction and telling Desmond his fate to go to the Island (Desmond then goes onto pass this knowledge onto Charlie about universal course correction and continuously tries to save him, but fails to do so in the end as Charlie was suppose to die like the scaffolding man) and Hurley’s meteor rock disaster – all point to that IMHO. All of these incidents happened for a reason to get them to the Island and I believe the same was the case for the meteor rock disaster in Hurley’s case. And I believe the Numbers are tied to that, hence their connection to the Candidates and reason for turning up everywhere in everyday life in the Lost Universe. So I don’t know if they are cursed in the sense they cause bad things to happen all the time, but they are definitely mystical in nature IMHO and seem to manipulate life to fit with the agenda of the Island and Jacob.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

I disagree that coincidence/fact isn’t fact. It is a fact of life and it is a fact on the show. Most of us experience coincidence on a daily basis. On the show the early season flashbacks were littered with coincidences.

Could you elaborate on why you don’t think coincidence or fate are not fact?

I agree coincidence/fate is a fact of life and on Lost – I’m not disputing that, I was disputing that fate/coincidence is not any real substantial proof to back up your view about Hurley's bad luck, that’s all. Sorry, if I misled you. But I think the previous two paragraphs explains best what I’m trying to say.

As stated before, IMO, these are not coincidental incidents of natural life, but the fate-manipulating work of Jacob/Island. The Island/Jacob needed those terrible incidents to happen to get Hurley to the Island. The Numbers helped it/him do that.

Originally Posted by RebelScum

Gladly

Thank you.

[T.K. Mazin]

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on the matter, RebelScum or we'll be debating till the end of time lol. But I do accept your view to be your view as that's your right, but I don't personally accept it as my view as I don't agree with it. I've tried to though.

[nuttytigger]

Hi all, I started reading the thread but it got too confusing lol.

I loved Lost, but I only started watching it a couple of months ago, I cried buckets at the end. I do have questions still but tbh I much prefer the answer I have decided on lol.

[LifeOfBryan]

Originally Posted by Mandark

We're still arguing about Lost after all this time. I just hope we can have another show like it. I'm still thinking up ideas!!

Hopefully ones you have an answer for and makes a satisfying ending not based on something you said it wasn't about in the first place!

One that fully explains things without mythical nonsense and saying oh isn't fluffy humanity lovely and everyone goes off to airy fairy land.

In short, don't take 6 years of people life's wasting their time or you will be forever hated for doing just that to the very people who supported you.

[Joe_Zel]

^^^^ I think that's a bit over dramatic.

I didn't like the last 2 seasons or so but I wouldn't consider my time wasted. It was a great show that did a lot for TV in general. It was only one hour a week, 22 weeks a year.

I enjoyed the themes it explored, humanity etc. I didn't find the fluffy, they all went to heaven together ending appealing either and felt they copped out on a lot, but you can't say the ride wasn't great.

[Chester666666]

Originally Posted by LifeOfBryan

Hopefully ones you have an answer for and makes a satisfying ending not based on something you said it wasn't about in the first place!

One that fully explains things without mythical nonsense and saying oh isn't fluffy humanity lovely and everyone goes off to airy fairy land.

In short, don't take 6 years of people life's wasting their time or you will be forever hated for doing just that to the very people who supported you.

most people loved the series and don't feel that it was wasting their time