I agree that Jorgie's performance was vey good, both technically and artistically, for a week one routine; but imo much of the beauty was dependent on lifts and for the rest of the routine most of the time was spent in hold with Matt. Conversely both Charlene and Chemmy accomplished some very creditable independent skating, with little concentration on lifts. Having said that to compare Jorgie to Chemmy and Charlene on this thread is just as irrelevant as the comparison between Jorgie and Heidi. My understanding of the thread is that it was created to question Heidi's survival over Andy's departure.

Did he initially mark Andy higher than Heidi? If so, it seems a strange decision.

Not if he thought Heidi upped her game in the skate off whilst Andy made mistakes - which incidentally he acknowledged.

Many times in the past a contestant finishing in a lowly position on the leaderboard and having to perform for survival has come out and skated a blinder.

Those who have watched since series will remember Stefan Booth who found himself in the skate off for 3 consecutive weeks but came through each time (once against the much fancied John Barrowman) eventually finishing runner up.

[quote=Ignazio;55802914]Not if he thought Heidi upped her game in the skate off whilst Andy made mistakes - which incidentally he acknowledged.

Many times in the past a contestant finishing in a lowly position on the leaderboard and having to perform for survival has come out and skated a blinder.

Those who have watched since series will remember Stefan Booth who found himself in the skate off for 3 consecutive weeks but came through each time (once against the much fancied John Barrowman) eventually finishing runner up.[/QUOTE]

I remember that well John thought he was going to through without any question and was extremely shocked when Stefan stayed over him and over several others that people would have considered better than him at the time.

Ok thank you. I didn't watch the results show, preferred to watch 'Sherlock'. I still think Andy was the better skater and would have entertained but we shall wait and see how Heidi fares.

Because we were talking about lifts in girl's routines and it seems some people thought that if you complain about the lifts in Heidi's (there were a lot) you should complain about any of the girls doing lifts. My point was that even through the lifts you could still see a huge difference in quality (skating and lifting) and that Heidi was not good at either and it wasn't just about lifts per se. Hers appeared to be there because she couldn't skate on her own (while Andy very much could) whereas Jorgie's were there to enhance a lovely routine which showed quality both on ice and in the air. Ooh I think tabitha kitten has already explained this very succinctly. I shoudl read the thread before replying

Maybe drifted a bit off topic but part of the point was about Heidi's lack of natural ice affinity whereas Andy looked confident on the ice, moved well with speed and good skating technique and with a bit of finessing, looked to be a much more exciting prospect than the clunky wooden Heidi. I have no issue with Heidi as a person although the VTs came over to me as dull as her skating was and had never heard of Andy so only saying what I am seeing.

I don't think Andy A or Heidi should have been in the bottom 2, but viewers put them there.

Heidi also said she thought she didn't skate as well in the skate-off - which Chris quickly jumped in to refute but i agree with Heidi.

As for Stefan - I was gutted when he was up against John Barrowman as I liked them both but I was glad he stayed - he just had a lovely quality to his skating. Heidi just doesn't -and I can't see her magically transforming anytime soon but willing to be proved wrong (not holding my breath!)

I agree about Heidi, she doesn't seem to have any natural ability at all, I think she will struggle in future weeks and I think she will be out within the next couple of weeks. I really enjoyed Andy as I did Jorgie, who was incredibly good for her first week.

Clearly no expert.


See I can be a smart a*se too when we both don't know anything.

Before either skated, I really expected Heidi to go, but Andy and Maria's routine looked a real mess second time around - and it wasn't just down to Andy. I know the pros turn it down a few notches so they don't upstage their celeb partners, but Maria performed as if she could hardly be bothered. At one stage I thought she had forgotten the steps entirely!

So yeh, it was no real surprise that Heidi ended up staying.

Did I claim to be either an expert or a smart arse?

I think you are probably right - but with Mark this week and Sam and Laila to come I think she could have at least a couple more weeks left.

I didn't see any mystery. Andy said the same about his final skate. Chris contradicted Heidi and said hers was better second outing. Jayne said it was faster, and it looked faster. It was neater than Andy both times.T and D gave Heidi the routine so they are not going to agree with anyone who thinks the routine was dull and they are the ones who choregraphed Heidi to be glued to Andrei and put the lifts in - so they are not going to fault that. They also may know why routines were the way they were, know if one was more difficult and may think Heidi's routine was pretty standard.

Heidi did her routine a bit better and according to Robin was cleaner, Andy did his no better or worse with a few mistakes. . There's plenty of room there for Robin to adjust his marks enough. On performance , Heidi improved a bit while Andy may even have got messier - . Heidi therefore wins too on mprovement since the first dance. Meanwhile, Louie thinks Andy's dancing ability is limited, worse than Heidi's, and he lacks refinement, attention to detail and discipline, and he's already shown that in a notably low mark. Louie is still marking that way after the second dance. Katerina is more impressed by Andy's attack and basic skating and she stays where she was too - but she also thinks Heidi improved.. Its close, but the outcome we get makes perfect sense.

Because watching people skating around doing nothing would be as exciting as watching people walk. It would only impress people who couldn't stand up on ice. In dancing on ice the roles of the males and females are very different - males lift, girls fly and hopefully both dance. The task of a successful female celeb on DOI is to get to look enough like the female pros - who will be doing the skating, spins and lifts with their celeb males. That requires a combination - and, as few celebs can do spins or jumps, the female celebs will end up using more lifts and, if they can dance, or do gymnastics, elements of those. As the female pros do more the weaker their male pros are (to keep the camera away from their celeb) the female celebs dont even have less to compete with with weaker males.

The problem is the easy lifts which end up with people being carried around at waist height. They are there because the female celeb either can't do anything more complex, or because they are too tall or big to be lifted higher - or because T and D just wrote yet another of the same lifts into the routine. The alternative is pointlessly moving around the rink. There's no comparison between the easy lifts, that turn up time and time again, and the more difficult or spectacular lifts and spins the best performers like Suzanne and Clare could do - or even those a Chloe could manage.

Its impossible to criticise Jorgie either on grounds that she didn't skate (when she did) or was lifted too much (when she didn't do that many). She didn't do any really big lifts but she avoided the facile ones, she did skate on her own, she has speed, and she concentrated on dancing technique. She ticked all boxes. They even explained in the VT that she had worked towards and was ticking all boxes. Chemmy is a bit faster , but she would be with skiers muscles, and she's going to have to work on her dancing and may be more limited in what lifts she can do by her height. Heidi ended up with a dull routine, with too many carrying lifts, but she had a difficult one too and there's a lot of people better and worse (Melinda notably) who have been given similar routines - so its premature to assuming anything.

Not sure. He has had 6 weeks to perfect that routine, or at least more time than he will have any other week. He couldn't remember his steps (and went wrong) He dropped his partner in rehearsals. He ended up improvising rather than doing the routine. He was out of sync with his partner. There was almost none of the dancing precision and refinement that Jason was looking for.He didn't improve for his second dance, and didn't seem to take on board what had been said to him. He also seemed to think he had done better than he had - which may suggest other problems. Heidi has to get over her nerves and skate better and faster, but she seems a better student at the other aspects - its not clear that that will be harder than acquiring discipline and dancing skill.

If anyone does think there's other factors at work here - it could be that Andy must have been spectacularly low in the vote to fall that far - and was doomed anyway. That may also be a factor in his reaction because he's understandably upset to go over males who were clearly worse. There also may be no role in the show for another weak performer who entertains some people by dancing badly - a majority of the other males this series already may fit into that categor, y and I suspect several of them are there because that audience will find them more entertaining.

.

What was Heidi a better student at? Not skating we know that. And for Andy to be able to improvise during a routine is quite an impressive skill! Good thing you are apparently entertained by a wooden performance and no skating skills whatsoever as that's what Heidi brings. Enjoy!

Equally Heidi has had 3 Months on the ice with world class coaches & is seemingly incapable of skating on her own. In her own words she is a scaredy cat on the ice & I don't see that changing dramatically now. (I'll hold my hands up if she does but just don't see it).

I think we may well have lost one of the best boys this series in Andy - I am sure Matthew will be very good next week, Sebastian may be good but not sure about the rest. Heidi in contrast was the worst girl last night, outshone by 50 something out of shape Charlene. Laila will of course be awful with jennifer likely to be good (given that they swapped her & Jorgie around due to Dan's injury it suggests they are at a similar level). Rosemary could be another dud but then again she may pull off a surprise like Charlene.

In terms of the vote I have a feeling that both Heidi & Andy A were at/near the bottom last night with Andy W & Sam at/near the top.

Yesterday, 01:00 * #70
Ignazio
Forum Member
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmyangel
Excuse me? Are you going to elaborate ?
You're excused.
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You must have forgotten your earlier post when I said I know f**k all about ice skating.
Yesterday, 00:40 * #68
Ignazio
Forum Member
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmyangel
I'll be completely honest , I get a bit pee'd of with comments like 'she got out of the lift excellently' 'she didn't choreograph the routine', as someone that knows f**k all about skating , I want to be entertained, Heidi was not entertaining, it was boring. I was so disappointed. I really felt robin 'sold out' on this one, reminded me of the vanilla ice/Jennifer metcalfe, he picked who he wanted to see again as they were more entertaining. Hope she improves or she will be out fairly early, hope I don't offend , just my opinion.
Well you said it.
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Yesterday, 00:55 * #69
If your going to be a smartar*e and not constructive , you must know more than me.

Oh dear oh dear!

Had I been aware of your sensitivity I would never have embarked upon what I regarded as a light hearted exchange.

I have not claimed to be an expert and nothing you have quoted above suggests otherwise.

You posted
I responded with
Now how does that translate to any claim of expertise by me?

I know few technical names for the moves choreographed for the routines, but either like or dislike the whole package of what I see and depend on the judges for the expert view. That last comment does of course exclude last years numpties Jason and Emma.

Incidentally do not put words into my mouth -
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showp...&postcount=72I I have never implied that you are imbecilic or indeed used any other offensive epithet in my exchanges with you, nor did I suggest that your opinion doesn't matter.

btw don't you think the BIB is rather contradictory? You say Heidi was not entertaining - but go on to say
I will now respect your sensitivities by bringing this rather sour exchange to a close.

Should you care to respond yet again, please ensure that you refer to my actual posts, not your misinterpretations. On the other hand should my comments piss you off and incite rage (your words) it's probably best that you ignore them.

I agree
he was far better than Heidi

she was really , lacking in confidence unstready stiff and was held UP on the ice by her partner most of the time

I think the fact there's debate at all about this shows that it was down to personal taste from the judging panel as to what they wanted to see more of - so to call any of them wrong, duff judges etc. at this stage seems a tad premature

I think getting rid of Andy on the grounds that he wasn't working very well in partnership would've been grounds for suspicion - after all, Chris Fountain took several weeks to get a partnership going with Frankie - but none of the judges mentioned that.

It seems fair to say that Robin was the deciding factor on this one, and he marked it based on the performance in the skate-off, which is exactly what you should do (and what the SCD judges consistently failed to do when the dance-off still existed).

So while I personally would have much preferred to see progress from Andy (and Maria, who I missed a bit last year), I can't complain about the way it was handled. The upside of having Heidsnorrrrrrrrrrrrre is having Andrei back!

I think I would go along with you. I would have rather seen Andy in the competition, he seemed a lot of fun, really wanted to learn and had great potential.

As much as I like Andrei, I don't think Heidi has the better potential. However, based on the skate off it seemed clear that most of them agreed that Heidi's was cleaner (according to the experts - I think even Katerina alluded to that).

It's a shame, but these are the rules.

See, I'm still confused as to what the rules are!

Are the judges supposed to say "we are watching you again from scratch as if we had not previously scored you, and rejudging you against each other"
OR
"we are looking at each couple and seeing which shows the most improvement from your last skate, and will judge on this basis regardless of your relative scoring positions"?

Well, given that they could potentially be judging one couple from the top and one couple from the bottom of the leaderboard, there would be no point at all in having the skate-off if it was a case of simply judging one against the other in a straight shoot-out.

I think it has to be a combination - they wipe the original slate clean as if they had not scored either couple, and judge on performance (hopefully including improvement) of the content that each has been given.

Perhaps we should see if they can clarify - surely Louie's got a blog somewhere we can ask on?

PS Lach - are we the same person again?