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Old 16-01-2012, 17:14
Veri
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If the skating lessons had made her into Jane Torvill then people would care. The fact of the matter is that she was the only one of the 15 celebrities to stumble visibly proving that she is far from competent on the ice. I'm sure she's learnt more since signing up to Dancing On Ice than she did in the two years of lessons anyway. Hopefully she won't be as nervous next time around, I'm glad she made it through
People ought to care anyway. OK, the lessons haven't made her one of the top skaters this series, but it's not only who wins or is contending to that matters. Other celebs who lack that unfair advantage will go out while she stays.
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Old 16-01-2012, 17:14
icedragon
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It's outrageous if she's had two years of ice skating lessons.

Do many people know? There's been a big outcry over less in the past.

Since she has tried to go on the show for several years it is not surprising she has been having lessons during that time and she hasn't tried to hide it but of course that may well be once a week group lessons and would be out of her own pocket which is not at all the same thing as the intensive DOI training with several top coaches on hand. Also starting lessons at age 63 is not the same as years of ice hockey training or rollerblading when young.

When that presenter (forget his name now) broke his leg during DOI he continued to have lessons during the year until he could re-enter the next season - and it didn't do him a lot of good either.

She actually has some very good technique - soft knees, good use of blade (not toe-pushing) but needs to get more speed and attack. Hard things to learn as an older adult.

Plus there are no rules as to what previous experience celebs may or may not have. They are either selected by Jayne and Chris or not. I can imagine when she tried out before she was too weak a prospect to include but a few years of basic lessons have meant she can manage a routine and so is worth including.
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Old 16-01-2012, 17:17
Yeah_Jackie
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People ought to care anyway. OK, the lessons haven't made her one of the top skaters this series, but it's not only who wins or is contending to that matters. Other celebs who lack that unfair advantage will go out while she stays.
Having observed her performance, I'm not seeing any advantage to her.
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Old 16-01-2012, 17:32
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People ought to care anyway. OK, the lessons haven't made her one of the top skaters this series, but it's not only who wins or is contending to that matters. Other celebs who lack that unfair advantage will go out while she stays.
Other celebrities have different advantages.

Matt has a gymnastics background which will help with his body positions and balance. Being one of the creators of parkour and freerunning, Sebastien has exceptional agility and flexibility. Jennifer has dance and ballet training which means she can create beautiful extensions and lines. And Louie mentioned Jorgie has had some dance training too.

There's nothing wrong with celebrities having some experience in dance and/or skating, but it seems a little unfair to single Rosemary out.
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Old 16-01-2012, 17:42
Tiggergirl
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I think had she come out and performed outstandingly then I might have been more concerned but it doesn't appear to have had a major affect on her abilities.

If it had then yes I would have questioned her inclusion as technically it would have been unfair to the others but even so to make a big issue of it you would have to look at what kind of lessons she was having and how many over the space of that time i.e was it one to one once a week, group lessons, several lessons a week and what she was actually learning. I have some basic skating skills and have had some lessons but not learned enough that would help me on DOI.

She has been upfront about it from the beginning so I don't really think it can be held against her.
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Old 16-01-2012, 17:43
Veri
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Other celebrities have different advantages.

Matt has a gymnastics background which will help with his body positions and balance. Being one of the creators of parkour and freerunning, Sebastien has exceptional agility and flexibility. Jennifer has dance and ballet training which means she can create beautiful extensions and lines. And Louie mentioned Jorgie has had some dance training too.

There's nothing wrong with celebrities having some experience in dance and/or skating, but it seems a little unfair to single Rosemary out.
The same points come up whenever advantages are discussed. That others have different advantages is one of the usual ones. But skating experience has always (and imo rightly) been considered different. It's like someone in SCD having two years of training in ballroom dance!

And I am not singling her out. Show me any other contestant with similar training in ice skating, and I will say the same. Two years is not just "some experience". It's not she just does Christmas skating with her kids, or skated for a while as a teenager.
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Old 16-01-2012, 17:48
Veri
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I think had she come out and performed outstandingly then I might have been more concerned but it doesn't appear to have had a major affect on her abilities.
How can you say that? You don't know what she was like without it, and it would be difficult for two years not to make a difference.

It doesn't matter that she wasn't outstanding. As I said above, but it's not only who wins or is contending to that matters. Other celebs who lack that unfair advantage will go out while she stays.

If it had then yes I would have questioned her inclusion as technically it would have been unfair to the others
...
It's still unfair. If someone is given a head start in a race, for example, that's unfair even if they aren't one of the fastest runners.

She has been upfront about it from the beginning so I don't really think it can be held against her.
I can hold the training against her. That she's been upfront just means I'm not holding dishonesty against her too.
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Old 16-01-2012, 17:50
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The same points come up whenever advantages are discussed. That others have different advantages is one of the usual ones. But skating experience has always (and imo rightly) been considered different. It's like someone in SCD having two years of training in ballroom dance!.
Not by me.

The show is called Dancing On Ice. So I regard any dance training as just as much of an advantage as skating experience.
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Old 16-01-2012, 17:52
petertard
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There will be a glass ceiling for Rosemary which she will reach soon due to her age.
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Old 16-01-2012, 17:52
Yeah_Jackie
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I think it is hilarious that she has had two years of lessons to reach her current standard. We were creased up here last night watching it. It has spurned my partner on to return to lessons. He gave up after 2 weeks because he didn't think he was or would make much progress. Seeing Rosemary made him realise that he could almost compete in amateur competition, without further lessons
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Old 16-01-2012, 17:55
Veri
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By many people; and I agree with them. Of course, people will disagree about how close the type of training has to be to what's done on the show before it's unacceptable, but so far as I've been able to tell, almost no one thinks all training is equally acceptable; and I don't think that would be a credible position anyway.

The show is called Dancing On Ice. So I regard any dance training as just as much of an advantage as skating experience.
The most difficult aspect of DOI is the skating. That "dancing" is in the title doesn't make dance experience as questionable as years of training in ice skating.

Similarly, in SCD previoius dance experience is considered ok, but not if it was ballroom dance.
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Old 16-01-2012, 17:56
icedragon
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How can you say that? You don't know what she was like without it, and it would be difficult for two years not to make a difference.

It doesn't matter that she wasn't outstanding. As I said above, but it's not only who wins or is contending to that matters. Other celebs who lack that unfair advantage will go out while she stays.


It's still unfair. If someone is given a head start in a race, for example, that's unfair even if they aren't one of the fastest runners.


I can hold the training against her. That she's been upfront just means I'm not holding dishonesty against her too.

That you would hold a few basic lessons in ice skating (in order to be even considered for the show she presumably had to prove some ability and prior to those lessons probably was not considered to be good enough to make it in to the show) against her, smacks of spite. Bloomin' hard learning ice skating at 63.

As I said above it a different prospect trying to learn a completely new skill at 63 compared to having played ice hockey or roller bladed at a young age which give a much bigger advantage and I still wouldn't hold it against them since there are no rules other than what T & D and producers decide but you carry on trying to get people angry at Rosemary - I don't think it will work.

As for the head start in a race - if you had runners of varying ages and abilities and you decide to give the 5 year old a head start against the 10 year old or the grandad a head start against the teenager is that 'unfair' or simply levelling the playing field a little. In skating comps there are always age bands in order to make the competitions fairer. if a few lessons mean Rosemary at 65 can compete against the young ones who will pick it up much faster than she will, that just makes it fairer not less fair.
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:08
Veri
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Since she has tried to go on the show for several years it is not surprising she has been having lessons during that time and she hasn't tried to hide it but of course that may well be once a week group lessons and would be out of her own pocket which is not at all the same thing as the intensive DOI training with several top coaches on hand. Also starting lessons at age 63 is not the same as years of ice hockey training or rollerblading when young.

When that presenter (forget his name now) broke his leg during DOI he continued to have lessons during the year until he could re-enter the next season - and it didn't do him a lot of good either.

She actually has some very good technique - soft knees, good use of blade (not toe-pushing) but needs to get more speed and attack. Hard things to learn as an older adult.

Plus there are no rules as to what previous experience celebs may or may not have. They are either selected by Jayne and Chris or not. I can imagine when she tried out before she was too weak a prospect to include but a few years of basic lessons have meant she can manage a routine and so is worth including.
Her "very good technique" could very well be the result of all that training. And if she was too weak to include before but isn't now, the training presumably had something to do with it.

However, even if the training hadn't done much for her, it would still be wrong, just as it would be wrong for someone to take a shortcut in a race even if they made a mistake and it wasn't actually shorter.

It also seems she did the training to try to get into DOI. That puts it in a very different and far more questionable category than such things as years of ice hockey training or rollerblading when young.
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:11
Yeah_Jackie
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I shudder to think her level of skating skill in her previous attempts at getting on the show.

Still her hard work and dedication has paid off and she is living her dream.
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:22
icedragon
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Her "very good technique" could very well be the result of all that training. And if she was too weak to include before but isn't now, the training presumably had something to do with it.

However, even if the training hadn't done much for her, it would still be wrong, just as it would be wrong for someone to take a shortcut in a race even if they made a mistake and it wasn't actually shorter.

It also seems she did the training to try to get into DOI. That puts it in a very different and far more questionable category than such things as years of ice hockey training or rollerblading when young.
Well of course she would be slightly better than if she had had no training at all but at given that it's much harder to learn ice skating with every decade that passes it actually makes it fairer for her to compete with the younger ones if she has had the 'head start'. They'll still overtake her due to the massive advantages of youth over age in this sport.

You are changing the goalposts - first you accused her of having a head start and I've said why that's not necessarily unfair so now you change it to taking a shortcut. She's not taking any shortcuts so that's a red herring and not applicable to this at all.

Do you even understand the difference between a few learn to skate lessons probably group ones once a week and the intensive one to one or sometimes 3 ooaches to one training they get in the months prior to DOI starting. If she'd passed any NISA tests or skated competitions when young there might be a case (but even then it is never going to be a level playing field so it's pointless complaining).

I love the fact that she was so determined to be on the show she started having lessons and it's great that it means she is good enough to be part of it.
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:23
Veri
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As for the head start in a race - if you had runners of varying ages and abilities and you decide to give the 5 year old a head start against the 10 year old or the grandad a head start against the teenager is that 'unfair' or simply levelling the playing field a little.
You're missing the point of my analogy which was that an unfair advantage needn't be one that makes you win or even do very well. That's all. It was just to help people see that an advantage is an advantage even if it doesn't make much difference to the end result.

You're switching to a different issue: whether it would be ok for DOI to try to "level the playing field". Maybe it wouid be ok, if that's what DOI tried to do. But it isn't. Instead, DOI gives them all the same amount of training (as much as is possible) and does not try to level.

In skating comps there are always age bands in order to make the competitions fairer.
Again that's a different issue. If DOI had age bands, maybe that would be ok. But DOI doesn't, and extra training is not the same as age bands.

if a few lessons mean Rosemary at 65 can compete against the young ones who will pick it up much faster than she will, that just makes it fairer not less fair.
She's not only competing against the young ones.

And it seems that lessons have already helped her get into the show, which means someone else didn't get that chance.
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:23
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Maybe his axel is not what it used to be and his toe pick action not up to scratch.

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Old 16-01-2012, 18:27
icedragon
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You're missing the point of my analogy which was that an unfair advantage needn't be one that makes you win or even do very well. That's all. It was just to help people see that an advantage is an advantage even if it doesn't make much difference to the end result.

You're switching to a different issue: whether it would be ok for DOI to try to "level the playing field". Maybe it wouid be ok, if that's what DOI tried to do. But it isn't. Instead, DOI gives them all the same amount of training (as much as is possible) and does not try to level.


Again that's a different issue. If DOI had age bands, maybe that would be ok. But DOI doesn't, and extra training is not the same as age bands.


She's not only competing against the young ones.

And it seems that lessons have already helped her get into the show, which means someone else didn't get that chance.
No idea why you've decided to pick on poor Rosemary this year but please leave her alone. She's having fun - she has a lovely skating partner. She or any other celeb can have ice skating lessons whenever they want and as much as they want (or can afford) and still apply to be on DOI and if they are chosen by Jayne & Chris that's it they are in.

If there are no rules you can't complain that anything is 'unfair'.
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:29
essexboyash
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Most ice skating lessons wont teach anything like what they do on Dancing On Ice so I wouldnt say she has an unfair advantage. As others have said, you can clearly see shes got no advantage over the others
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:37
Veri
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You are changing the goalposts - first you accused her of having a head start and I've said why that's not necessarily unfair so now you change it to taking a shortcut. She's not taking any shortcuts so that's a red herring and not applicable to this at all.
No goal posts have been moved, The goal post has always been that the contestants should not have extra training specifically in ice skating before going in.

I didn't accuse her of having a head start, though it is an awful lot like one.

And I'm not changing it to an accusation taking a shortcut,

The race analogies were simply to help explain some things about advantages. The point of the head start analogy is that an advantage is still and advantage even if it doesn't make much difference to the end result. (Just as cheating in a test is still cheating even if you mess up and still fail.)

The point of the short cut analogy is much the same, as is the point of the test analogy I've just made.

Do you even understand the difference between a few learn to skate lessons probably group ones once a week and the intensive one to one or sometimes 3 ooaches to one training they get in the months prior to DOI starting. If she'd passed any NISA tests or skated competitions when young there might be a case (but even then it is never going to be a level playing field so it's pointless complaining).
When some evidence appears that her two years were just group lessons once a week, that point might become relevant.

I love the fact that she was so determined to be on the show she started having lessons and it's great that it means she is good enough to be part of it.
I think it's too bad that by, effectively, cheating she's obtained an unfair advantage and deprived someone else of a place in the show. It will be interesting to see how many people are evicted over her before she finally goes. Every one of them might have had more time in the show if she hadn't had all those skating lessons.
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:37
MrIncredible
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Some people really need to chill out. It's an entertainment show (allegedly) - and someone has had lessons so they dont fall on their arse in front of 7 million people.

Does it actually matter?
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:39
Malik24
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Lol... Rosemary's 'lessons' were probably chatting whilst relaxingly going round the edge of the rink. Not quite on the same scale as a dance course or intensive training.
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:41
Yeah_Jackie
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Aw come on Veri. The first 18 months were learning to lace up the skates
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:42
theshadow
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Can't believe people are giving her such a hard time over the skating lessons!!! The woman has tried out unsuccessfully for several years to get on the show. I would have expected her to go off and get skating lessons if she was serious about getting a place on the show. And she goes and does it, and shows how passionate and committed she is to the show. And people give out about her.
I think she is a role-model for perseverance and enthusiasm.
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:44
Veri
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Most ice skating lessons wont teach anything like what they do on Dancing On Ice so I wouldnt say she has an unfair advantage. As others have said, you can clearly see shes got no advantage over the others
Again, an advantage doesn't mean you necessarily come out ahead. I've tried to explain that in several different ways above.

However, her training does seem to have given her an up.

We certainly can't see that it hasn't.

Was she bottom of the leaderboard? No. She was even 3 points above the bottom score.

Also it seems the lessons may have helped her get into DOI this time when she'd failed before.
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