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Old 16-01-2012, 18:49
Veri
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Can't believe people are giving her such a hard time over the skating lessons!!! The woman has tried out unsuccessfully for several years to get on the show. I would have expected her to go off and get skating lessons if she was serious about getting a place on the show. And she goes and does it, and shows how passionate and committed she is to the show. And people give out about her.
I think she is a role-model for perseverance and enthusiasm.
And for seeking an extra advantage.

Perseverance and enthusiasm aren't necessarily good things. It depends on what you're using them to accomplish and on what methods they lead you to use.

Re giving her such a hard tome -- it's just a few forum posts. There are often complaints about celebs having unfair advantages, and I think this is one of the more questionable things a celeb has done.

For one thing, it looks like she's had to lessons in order to improve her DOI chances. That's very different, and much more questionable, than such things as if someone happened to do a lot of skating when young.
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Old 16-01-2012, 18:51
Jem19876
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She's been 100% open and honest about her previous lessons, and how she'd applied onto the show before and hoped it would help her get a place. Even if she wasn't going to get a place, she is someone who wanted to learn to skate, so she did what normal people do in those circumstances, she had some lessons.

Most of the celebs on the show have experience in "performing" if not substantial dance training, or acting experience and generally making use of the other skills that come into play when you want to go from being a skater into an ice dancer.

If one of the young contestants, one of the strong dancers, had been taking sneaky extra skating lessons between getting the booking and starting proper rehearsals, you might have a point that there is something unfair going on.

For years, there have been discussions about trying to create a level playing field. It's near enough impossible. Most people simply don't want it to be a one-horse race. This year it looks like it is an open field, with many contestants having plenty of relevant experience to help them do well.

If the lessons made that big a difference, she'll lag further behind the others with each passing week she stays in. If that happens, she'll go home.
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Old 16-01-2012, 19:06
Snow_Leopard
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People ought to care anyway. OK, the lessons haven't made her one of the top skaters this series, but it's not only who wins or is contending to that matters. Other celebs who lack that unfair advantage will go out while she stays.
Very true. I enjoyed Laila's performance more than her's too. Rosemary should have been at the bottom.
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Old 16-01-2012, 19:40
theshadow
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And for seeking an extra advantage.

Perseverance and enthusiasm aren't necessarily good things. It depends on what you're using them to accomplish and on what methods they lead you to use.

Re giving her such a hard tome -- it's just a few forum posts. There are often complaints about celebs having unfair advantages, and I think this is one of the more questionable things a celeb has done.

For one thing, it looks like she's had to lessons in order to improve her DOI chances. That's very different, and much more questionable, than such things as if someone happened to do a lot of skating when young.
Oh come on.
She had lessons because she was desperate to get onto the show after being rejected many times! Thats so obvious. How can you criticise her for that??
And if she has an unfair advantage then you should be shouting at all the actors (unfair advantage) and also any with a dancing background (unfair advantage) and sure while we are at it, why not - younger people (unfair advantage)???!!
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Old 16-01-2012, 21:16
Tiger Rose
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Of course if someone thinks she has an advantage they have every right to not vote for her. But she's in the show & I can't see the big deal really. I don't mind her and she's welcome to stick around for a bit longer, until Mark & Corey at least have gone as they are currently the worst left.
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Old 16-01-2012, 21:26
essexboyash
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Again, an advantage doesn't mean you necessarily come out ahead. I've tried to explain that in several different ways above.

However, her training does seem to have given her an up.

We certainly can't see that it hasn't.

Was she bottom of the leaderboard? No. She was even 3 points above the bottom score.

Also it seems the lessons may have helped her get into DOI this time when she'd failed before.
I know what an advantage is. Im not saying theyve done nothing for her but my point was simply that she doesnt deserve to be penalised for having a few ice lessons. Its just an opinion
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Old 16-01-2012, 21:28
essexboyash
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All my point is, is that im not bothered either way, if i think shes good or bad or want her to stay or go, the fact shes had lessons wont contribute to that decision is all I meant
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Old 16-01-2012, 21:33
Tejas
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Rosemary seems rather sweet, and it was lovely to see how much the show means to her... but dear me, I nearly nodded off when she was skating! I actually preferred Laila, and I'm at a loss as to why the judges were so generous with Rosemary's marks.
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Old 16-01-2012, 21:35
icedragon
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Veri you cannot say it's an unfair advantage when there are no rules as to what you can or can't do before, during or after the show. Every single one of them had the same opportunity to take skating lessons if they wanted to so there's no unfairness there. If they chose not to because they didn't expect to be asked to be on the show that's still their choice. They could have taken lessons in the hope they might be asked or said yes but i'd like to be on next year when I've had a few lessons but since they are expensive and very slow - beginners do tend to do group lessons half an hour a week - most probably wouldn't choose to. If they choose to go on the show anyway that's still their choice.

For all you know T & D could have invited her to tryout, seen she wasn't any good and suggested lessons before she tried again.

Everyone of them has something that could be considered an advantage in the context of the show be it gymnastics, dancing, youth, ready made fanbase whatever and none of those are unfair.

You agreed there is no attempt to make a level playing field and there are no rules, so how can anything then be unfair.

You obviously decided to pick on Rosemary this year -whatever has she done to you?

You don't have to vote for her but don't go accusing her of 'unfariness'.
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Old 16-01-2012, 21:42
icedragon
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Rosemary seems rather sweet, and it was lovely to see how much the show means to her... but dear me, I nearly nodded off when she was skating! I actually preferred Laila, and I'm at a loss as to why the judges were so generous with Rosemary's marks.
They weren't exactly generous but she was better at the skating than Laila (who did very little she simply walked on the ice or was pushed/pulled/lifted and didn't seem to care at all about being on the show so I'm at a loss as to why she went on in the first place) and while Rosemary was very slow she did use the blades properly (no toe-pushing) and had nice lines in the upside down lift (as opposed to Laila who was picked up like a sack of spuds). In fact Rosemary also did several 3 turns, forward and back crossovers, a nice drag and some crossrolls. Laila just toepushied around and did a few toepick steps.
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Old 16-01-2012, 21:44
theshadow
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Veri you cannot say it's an unfair advantage when there are no rules as to what you can or can't do before, during or after the show. Every single one of them had the same opportunity to take skating lessons if they wanted to so there's no unfairness there. If they chose not to because they didn't expect to be asked to be on the show that's still their choice. They could have taken lessons in the hope they might be asked or said yes but i'd like to be on next year when I've had a few lessons but since they are expensive and very slow - beginners do tend to do group lessons half an hour a week - most probably wouldn't choose to. If they choose to go on the show anyway that's still their choice.

For all you know T & D could have invited her to tryout, seen she wasn't any good and suggested lessons before she tried again.

Everyone of them has something that could be considered an advantage in the context of the show be it gymnastics, dancing, youth, ready made fanbase whatever and none of those are unfair.

You agreed there is no attempt to make a level playing field and there are no rules, so how can anything then be unfair.

You obviously decided to pick on Rosemary this year -whatever has she done to you?

You don't have to vote for her but don't go accusing her of 'unfariness'.
Well said!!! Well done.
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Old 17-01-2012, 00:57
Snow_Leopard
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They weren't exactly generous but she was better at the skating than Laila (who did very little she simply walked on the ice or was pushed/pulled/lifted and didn't seem to care at all about being on the show so I'm at a loss as to why she went on in the first place) and while Rosemary was very slow she did use the blades properly (no toe-pushing) and had nice lines in the upside down lift (as opposed to Laila who was picked up like a sack of spuds). In fact Rosemary also did several 3 turns, forward and back crossovers, a nice drag and some crossrolls. Laila just toepushied around and did a few toepick steps.
Rosemary stumbled, which looked bad. I thought she was going to fall over!
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Old 17-01-2012, 01:14
icedragon
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Rosemary stumbled, which looked bad. I thought she was going to fall over!
She tripped on her toepick on a 3 turn - which can happen to anyone. At least she was doing 3 turns and using her edges rather than doing nothing except two footed forward skating like Laila. Plus she recovered quickly and went on to do more turns, crossovers and crossrolls albeit slowly. Laila stomped around the ice forwards only - her partner went around her rather than her turning at all.
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Old 17-01-2012, 08:19
Yeah_Jackie
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Come on now. They are both game old birds and credit to them for that but they were both rubbish, 3 turns or not.

Still they were on a par with one or two of their younger competitors. Probably due to Rosemary's unfair advantage? I wonder what cunning tricks Laila had been up to. 5 years with the Royal Ballet perhaps?
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Old 17-01-2012, 11:22
winenroses
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Some people really need to chill out. It's an entertainment show (allegedly) - and someone has had lessons so they dont fall on their arse in front of 7 million people.

Does it actually matter?
Aw come on Veri. The first 18 months were learning to lace up the skates.
You really need to empathise more, Veri. At that age the woman does not want to go into it cold. There is a real risk of injury and once bones are broken it's harder for a person in their 60s to recover, that is if they ever completely do so.

It was sensible of her to take lessons. She probably knows she hasn't a chance of winning but wants to make a credible stab at it. Good for her! Better than sitting in a rocking chair.

I would say that she is at a real disadvantage at 65 years old, even though she is remarkable 65.
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Old 17-01-2012, 11:43
icedragon
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Come on now. They are both game old birds and credit to them for that but they were both rubbish, 3 turns or not.

Still they were on a par with one or two of their younger competitors. Probably due to Rosemary's unfair advantage? I wonder what cunning tricks Laila had been up to. 5 years with the Royal Ballet perhaps?
That's a matter of opinion and what you are looking at. Rosemary's skating wasn't rubbish but it was very very slow. Laila's skating was non-existent but if you like that sort of thing that's fine.
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Old 17-01-2012, 13:22
Veri
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Veri you cannot say it's an unfair advantage when there are no rules as to what you can or can't do before, during or after the show.
Fairness isn't just (or even primarily) a matter of rules.

Every single one of them had the same opportunity to take skating lessons if they wanted to so there's no unfairness there.
It doesn't matter that they all had the opportunity. If everyone has the opportunity to cheat on a test, it's still wrong and unfair for any of them to cheat.

For all you know T & D could have invited her to tryout, seen she wasn't any good and suggested lessons before she tried again.
If T&D did that, then they shouldn't have.

Everyone of them has something that could be considered an advantage in the context of the show be it gymnastics, dancing, youth, ready made fanbase whatever and none of those are unfair.
I don't think that takes us beyond what was said earlier re that point. But, ok: would it be fine for Katarina to be a DOI contestant, for example? All the arguments about how "every one of them has something that could be considered an advantage in the context of the show" could be brought in to defend the decision to include her.

Clearly, some advantages are more questionable than others.

You agreed there is no attempt to make a level playing field and there are no rules, so how can anything then be unfair.
I haven't agreed that there are no rules. But fairness isn't a matter of rules.

You obviously decided to pick on Rosemary this year -whatever has she done to you?

You don't have to vote for her but don't go accusing her of 'unfariness'.
I haven't "decided to pick on Rosemary". There are a couple of things about her I don't like about her being in the show, so I've said I don't and explained why.

Anyone who had skating lessons in the period before the show would get the same complaint from me.

It's a matter of principle, and letting Rosemary have 2 years of skating lessons sets a bad precedent.

I think a line should be drawn; and if a line's drawn, it has to be drawn somewhere.
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Old 17-01-2012, 13:24
lach doch mal
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That's a matter of opinion and what you are looking at. Rosemary's skating wasn't rubbish but it was very very slow. Laila's skating was non-existent but if you like that sort of thing that's fine.
Sorry to hijack this thread. Icedragon, nice to meet you again. Can you tell me who in your opinion is the best skater this year (techniquewise).

And to stay on topic, I don't care either way. She was open and upfront about it, and this way we might see a real progression.
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Old 17-01-2012, 13:38
Veri
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You really need to empathise more, Veri. At that age the woman does not want to go into it cold. There is a real risk of injury and once bones are broken it's harder for a person in their 60s to recover, that is if they ever completely do so.

It was sensible of her to take lessons. She probably knows she hasn't a chance of winning but wants to make a credible stab at it. Good for her! Better than sitting in a rocking chair.

I would say that she is at a real disadvantage at 65 years old, even though she is remarkable 65.
They have months of training before the show starts. (Laila didn't get all of that. Her injury put her 3 weeks behind the others.)

Other older contestants have gone into it without (so far as anyone knows) getting in two years of lessons in the period leading up to the show.

And I doubt she'd be sitting in a rocking chair in any case.

That her age is a disadvantage doesn't stop the two years of lessons being an advantage compared to not having them.
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Old 17-01-2012, 13:38
Yeah_Jackie
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That's a matter of opinion and what you are looking at. Rosemary's skating wasn't rubbish but it was very very slow. Laila's skating was non-existent but if you like that sort of thing that's fine.
Come on. She'd be lucky if she passed Skate UK Level 1 after her two years of lessons plus her subsequent one to one daily coaching in preparation for the show.

If she goes down on the ice I don't think she is getting back up very easily
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Old 17-01-2012, 14:56
winenroses
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They have months of training before the show starts. (Laila didn't get all of that. Her injury put her 3 weeks behind the others.)

Other older contestants have gone into it without (so far as anyone knows) getting in two years of lessons in the period leading up to the show.

And I doubt she'd be sitting in a rocking chair in any case.

That her age is a disadvantage doesn't stop the two years of lessons being an advantage compared to not having them.
The complete novices are shown to be falling over at frequent intervals. Rosemary could have been advised that this would be one reason she should not enter the show. Dr. Hilary was a contestant who was very wary of falling over on the ice. As a Doctor, he said he knew the damage he could cause. He was an older contestant, but much younger than Rosemary.

It is sensible to generally prepare. Look at Laila.

I doubt she would be sitting in a rocking chair if not on DOI either! Neither did I say she would be, you notice.That was a phrase meant to show admiration. There is little point explaining if you take things so literally, but nevertheless I think her age is definitely an important factor, and I'm quite certain the DOI team do .

As you say, perseverance and enthusiasm are not always a good thing, but I am happy for you to continue with yours.
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Old 17-01-2012, 15:16
winenroses
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Come on now. They are both game old birds and credit to them for that but they were both rubbish, 3 turns or not.

Still they were on a par with one or two of their younger competitors. Probably due to Rosemary's unfair advantage? I wonder what cunning tricks Laila had been up to. 5 years with the Royal Ballet perhaps?
I've often thought Dawn French would be fun, but going by some of her sketches, it does look as if she had ballet lessons at some point, so who knows?
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Old 17-01-2012, 15:23
icedragon
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Sorry to hijack this thread. Icedragon, nice to meet you again. Can you tell me who in your opinion is the best skater this year (techniquewise).

And to stay on topic, I don't care either way. She was open and upfront about it, and this way we might see a real progression.
Hi loch doch mal *waves*
I think it's a bit early to tell and I didn't pay that much attention really but in the first week Jorgie did enough skating with enough quality to make me think she will be pretty good. Heidi did not impress at all. This week Chico was a revelation and I'm excited to see what he can produce (my fav!). Sebastien is fearless and exciting but lacks finesse and partnership skills. Sam was not half bad either in his skating skills - one to watch, (Mark appeared to be a hopeless case). Matthew mesmerised with his dancing skills so I can't comment on his skating Charlene had a killer Ina Bauer and could surprise a lot of people. Rosemary did some quality skating (and is with a great pro who can get quality skating out of anyone) but with no speed or attack it's going nowhere. I can't remember anyone else off the top of my head.
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Old 17-01-2012, 15:29
FantasticMrFox
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I've never had a problem with anyone who wanted to put in the effort to learn to skate before the show. The celebs know months in advance whether they are going to be considered and if someone takes the initiative to get skating time in before that then good on them. As far as I'm concerned as long as someone is not a professional skater and does not own any of the ice skating certificates other than basic skills they should be free to join. Never ice danced but I have played hockey and before the tryouts I'd barely skated but I wanted to be on that team so I saved all my pocket money and went on that rink until I could start, stop, skate, jump and turn with ease.
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Old 17-01-2012, 15:31
icedragon
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Come on. She'd be lucky if she passed Skate UK Level 1 after her two years of lessons plus her subsequent one to one daily coaching in preparation for the show.

If she goes down on the ice I don't think she is getting back up very easily
I'd imagine she could pass Skate UK level 6 or so - can't remember what's on the tests now. Most people can reach this level in a weeks intensive training or 6 months to a year's worth of group lessons once a week. She's pretty sprightly too so think she may bounce quite well You don't need to be able to do anything at speed for skate UK. From what Laila showed us on Sunday she would be about skate UK level 2
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