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Are T & D overstretched with the choreography... |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Are T & D overstretched with the choreography...
...having to do too much, so that the overall quality of choreography is leaving something to be desired ?
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#2 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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I'm not the most avid viewer of DOI, but I would agree that they are overstretched. A lot of the routines are all blurred into one for me. Of course there are routines that I still love - Sam's Riverdance being one.
Maybe if they worked with the pro skaters to allow them some input in the choreography. |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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We see similar routineand from series to series - the pros will be given their signature moves over and over again. Then again if a celeb shows a particular ability the step/move will be done to death. The step accomplished by Charlene is a perfect example (sorry I forget what it's called) - but by the time the routine was finished I was praying to see something else.
Then of course we have T&D's own perfornances. They are still a delight but I'd like to see more of the pros. Perhaps if Chris and Jayne didn't have to choreograph a routine where they take centre stage they might come up with something more original for the pro/celeb partnerships. |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cardiff
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Quote:
We see similar routineand from series to series - the pros will be given their signature moves over and over again. Then again if a celeb shows a particular ability the step/move will be done to death. The step accomplished by Charlene is a perfect example (sorry I forget what it's called) - but by the time the routine was finished I was praying to see something else.
Then of course we have T&D's own perfornances. They are still a delight but I'd like to see more of the pros. Perhaps if Chris and Jayne didn't have to choreograph a routine where they take centre stage they might come up with something more original for the pro/celeb partnerships. |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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#6 |
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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In Strictly the pro dancers are largely in charge of putting routines together for their celeb partners - if they need help, they are quite at liberty to get someone else in to help. I feel doi should perhaps start letting their pro skaters do the same, with the likes of Karen B etc on hand to help with training as she does now..
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#7 |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Yorkshire, UK
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I don't see why T&D can't just let the Pro skaters have "free rein "with their celeb partner, and just give them a "set move" to incorporate each week.
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#8 |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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I'm not sure but in SCD I think pretty much all the pros also do teaching outside the show, whereas in DOI maybe they don't all and thus it wouldn't be a level playing field? It's one thing being able to do the moves quite another to be able to demonstrate them effectively to others? Maybe this is why it isn't left to the pros to do the choreography and coaching?
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#9 |
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 15,867
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It's a shame the required element was dropped. I'm deathly bored of T&D choreography to be honest.
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#10 |
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,218
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Quote:
I don't see why T&D can't just let the Pro skaters have "free rein "with their celeb partner, and just give them a "set move" to incorporate each week.
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#11 |
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Join Date: Jul 2003
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Quote:
I don't see why T&D can't just let the Pro skaters have "free rein "with their celeb partner, and just give them a "set move" to incorporate each week.
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#12 |
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,488
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Chris is beginning to look like doing a "dad dance".
Surely they only got a year max before they hung up the skates. |
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#13 |
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Join Date: Jul 2003
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Quote:
We see similar routineand from series to series - the pros will be given their signature moves over and over again. Then again if a celeb shows a particular ability the step/move will be done to death. The step accomplished by Charlene is a perfect example (sorry I forget what it's called) - but by the time the routine was finished I was praying to see something else.
Then of course we have T&D's own perfornances. They are still a delight but I'd like to see more of the pros. Perhaps if Chris and Jayne didn't have to choreograph a routine where they take centre stage they might come up with something more original for the pro/celeb partnerships. Perhaps the best they could do is to give people better songs, in so far as they are available, and employ some more choreographers to produce the best results from them. . |
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#14 |
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Quote:
Because some would know how to do it and some wouldn't and you could have problems if people damaged themselves trying too much. You might avoid the bland routines and get more great ones if a few pros could choregraph well , but you would also get more people avoiding what their celeb wasn't good at and playing it for just the laughs, if that won votes - as in SCD.
If you get an ambitious pro they might keep pushing the celeb to do stuff that they really can't do and may end up getting hurt whereas T&D and the coaches generally know the limits of the celebs and pros although I have to admit this year I do wonder. Also as you have said weaknesses could be just be hidden by avoiding them in the choreo. I think perhaps the pros and celebs could have a bit more input into routines maybe adding to the basic outline given by T&D but again you would need to have pros with enough knowledge to do it. It would be nice to see more general pro numbers but again you have pros that have set moves and skills and tricks and it might get a bit boring if you were seeing them week in week out. Whereas when you just get a few pro numbers you appreciate what the pros can actually do. |
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#15 |
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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T&D are marvels to choreograph as diversely as they do, but inevitably the same moves creep in, particularly where the pro has a weak celeb. And, yes, the pros seem to have acquired signature moves - if Dan has Jennifer in that dreadful plank lift on Sunday, I shall probably throw something at the telly...
I was lucky enough to go to one of the shows last year and I got to chat to Robin Cousins in the green room afterwards (what a lovely man he is). I asked him why they didn't let the pros choreograph the routines as, with the greatest respect to T&D, I did find some of the routines were getting rather samey. He said, very straightforwardly, what others have said - most of the pros are just not up to it. I am certainly no expert, but I believe it is relatively rare for ice dancers at the top level to choreograph their own routines - unlike ballroom dancing. Shame, really. |
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#16 |
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Join Date: May 2011
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Nice to hear about the conversation you had with Robin.
I've always been of the same opinion, I just don't think most of the pros are capable of choreographing to a good standard, I've always thought that the Bolero's are usually the weakest routines of the series and it can't be a coincidence that it's because tnd don't devise them. As someone else has mentioned, it's incredibly hard to make a routine look good when there's no dance ability or no skating ability and I reckon if we could see Jayne and Chris skate the routines as they could look they would all be fine. I find it hard to believe that any of the pros could produce routines for celebs like Todd or comedy dave and make them suit their limited ability so well |
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#17 |
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Join Date: Jul 2003
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Quote:
Nice to hear about the conversation you had with Robin.
I've always been of the same opinion, I just don't think most of the pros are capable of choreographing to a good standard, I've always thought that the Bolero's are usually the weakest routines of the series and it can't be a coincidence that it's because tnd don't devise them. As someone else has mentioned, it's incredibly hard to make a routine look good when there's no dance ability or no skating ability and I reckon if we could see Jayne and Chris skate the routines as they could look they would all be fine. I find it hard to believe that any of the pros could produce routines for celebs like Todd or comedy dave and make them suit their limited ability so well I think the weakness of the pros choregraphing also showed up in the show dances last year - not at all sure that was a good idea either. |
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#18 |
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Join Date: May 2011
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Quote:
Even if you made Todd or Dave do a top routine - or reused old ones if you can't think up any more - you hit the other problem of DOI. If you gave Anne Widdecombe Rachel Stephen's routines from SCD, she would look hopeless and the viewer can make the appropriate conclusion . If you gave Colleen Clare's routines, or Todd Sam's, or even Melinda Clare's, you would have broken bones or necks.
I think the weakness of the pros choregraphing also showed up in the show dances last year - not at all sure that was a good idea either. I also don't think the pros could approach different styles, I love how at one time t and d can choreograph something like rays rock n roll and at another something so different as Laura's stop routine by Sam brown. I fear that if the pros choreographed the fundamental dance element to the show would become lost |
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#19 |
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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One thing I don't like about T&D choreographing for everyone is that it is then VERY easy for the producers to manipulate certain couples up and down the leaderboard by what they are given.
If the pros choreographed themselves, everyone would be going all-out for a best routine. |
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#20 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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I see why it's important for Chris and Jayne to oversee all of the choreography, and I'm amazed by what they manage. However, I do think that the demands of the show, and the volume of routines required of them means that they would inevitably benefit from some support. We sometimes see them get various dance experts in, to help out with certain routines, such as the Jai Ho one. They could do that more.
As far as I can tell, they do an amazing job with some of the weaker skaters, and create some good, original stuff using their personalities. They also do some amazing stuff with the men and women at the top of the leaderboard. Where it can get samey is for the people in the middle of the leader-board. I often feel sorry for the good skaters who aren't the obvious front-runner. It does sometimes look like the top man and top woman gets all of the good stuff, while the second best man and woman gets stuff that stretches them technically, but isn't that creative, because the good idea for a skater of that level was used up the week before. I'm not sure if I've explained that well. I do have immense respect for what they achieve. I just get the feeling that a bit more support, and that they should have less celebs each year, as it would instantly reduce the problem of the middle of the leader-board performances being samey. I know ITV want the show to be as long as possible, and the extra couple of weeks mean the skaters get even better by the finals, so it works both ways. |
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#21 |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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I think some people are underestimating just how difficult it is to put together routines for novice skaters that work for a TV audience - I think it's a far more difficult job than choreographing on Strictly. (there is a reason why celebs train for 3 Months for DOI & 3 weeks for SCD). Also this was new to T&D when they first started doing the show back in 2006, prior to that they had only worked with top class skaters which is an entirely different beast.
I think in terms of the pros some will have an interest and/or flair for choreographing with others not (same with strictly really where some pros are much better than others). Personally I'm happy for T&D to remain in charge but gain input from outside expertise as necessary. We know they sometimes do this already & it may well be that pros do have some input e.g. they may say that this week why not try this move or lift etc. Remember we only see snippets of training footage so we don't know for certain that pros have no input although T&D are certainly in overall charge. There are some moves that I think are overdone. I'd personally be happy never to see another headbanger but sometimes I wonder if the producers are at fault more than T&D. Am sure producers like the idea of stuff like that and it may be their influence that sees it getting overused. Same with Bolero - I'd love to see celebs do other T&D routines but I know this is never going to happen because as far as Joe public are concerned T&D = Bolero and it's what they are best known for. This board isn't representative of the general audience in that respect. |
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#22 |
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I do agree that a lot of the pro skaters are not really capable of choreographing routines, but feel that maybe it's time T&D brought in pros who are capable ..... There must be plenty of ex-competitive skaters, of varying levels, in the world now teach (beginners upwards) and have retained their own skating skills, who would love the chance to be on DOI. To be honest, the pros that are on the show are not that great.
Or - and I feel I will probably get a brick thrown at me through my computer screen - could it be that T&D are well aware of their own limitations, and don't want to risk being shown up by better skaters? As for bolero - mentioned above - I absolutely agree about wishing it could be replaced by a different T&D routine, it's just sooooooo boring now. |
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#23 |
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Join Date: May 2011
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Quote:
I do agree that a lot of the pro skaters are not really capable of choreographing routines, but feel that maybe it's time T&D brought in pros who are capable ..... There must be plenty of ex-competitive skaters, of varying levels, in the world now teach (beginners upwards) and have retained their own skating skills, who would love the chance to be on DOI. To be honest, the pros that are on the show are not that great.
Or - and I feel I will probably get a brick thrown at me through my computer screen - could it be that T&D are well aware of their own limitations, and don't want to risk being shown up by better skaters? As for bolero - mentioned above - I absolutely agree about wishing it could be replaced by a different T&D routine, it's just sooooooo boring now. |
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#24 |
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Quote:
I do agree that a lot of the pro skaters are not really capable of choreographing routines, but feel that maybe it's time T&D brought in pros who are capable ..... There must be plenty of ex-competitive skaters, of varying levels, in the world now teach (beginners upwards) and have retained their own skating skills, who would love the chance to be on DOI. To be honest, the pros that are on the show are not that great.
Or - and I feel I will probably get a brick thrown at me through my computer screen - could it be that T&D are well aware of their own limitations, and don't want to risk being shown up by better skaters? As for bolero - mentioned above - I absolutely agree about wishing it could be replaced by a different T&D routine, it's just sooooooo boring now. Also look at the fuss people kick up already when their favourite pro isn't back in the show you try and get rid of all the favourites you would have complete anarchy on your hands. People still complain about Mel and Fred and Kristina not being involved if you brought in all new pro's people would not be happy. |
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#25 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,249
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Quote:
I do agree that a lot of the pro skaters are not really capable of choreographing routines, but feel that maybe it's time T&D brought in pros who are capable ..... There must be plenty of ex-competitive skaters, of varying levels, in the world now teach (beginners upwards) and have retained their own skating skills, who would love the chance to be on DOI. To be honest, the pros that are on the show are not that great.
Or - and I feel I will probably get a brick thrown at me through my computer screen - could it be that T&D are well aware of their own limitations, and don't want to risk being shown up by better skaters? As for bolero - mentioned above - I absolutely agree about wishing it could be replaced by a different T&D routine, it's just sooooooo boring now. Mark can definitely do choreography too. |
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