LCD screen manufacturers lost a combined $13bn from 2004-2010

1andrew1 · 18-01-2012, 12:14

http://www.economist.com/blogs/schum.../bl/crackingup

It's set to get worse with more capacity coming online from China thus driving down prices.

Sony loses $45 per every tv it sells and Panasonic's tv business has not made money for four years.

I think the only solution will be if two of the big four (Samsung, Sony, Panasonic, LG) merge or one exits.

Could we see Sony depart from the sector or move more upmarket? I'm a Sony fan but I've read that both their reliability - and sales - have both fallen behind Samsung in the last couple of years.

trphil · 18-01-2012, 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I think the only solution will be if two of the big four (Samsung, Sony, Panasonic, LG) merge or one exits.

Or they could all start selling them at a price where they make a profit rather than a loss?

webbie · 18-01-2012, 13:01

Well Samsung expect to make a profit of $4.5bn for the last quarter (the whole company). They are investing $41bn in 2012. $6bn on tvs including OLED.

Nigel Goodwin · 18-01-2012, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Could we see Sony depart from the sector or move more upmarket? I'm a Sony fan but I've read that both their reliability - and sales - have both fallen behind Samsung in the last couple of years.

Samsung sales are higher than Sony, but reliability of Samsung is FAR below that of Sony (or Panasonic).

1andrew1 · 18-01-2012, 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by trphil

Or they could all start selling them at a price where they make a profit rather than a loss?

Presumably they feel that if they did this, no one would buy them and they would be making even bigger losses. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Many players in Europe have left the tv market (Harvard, Thomson, Sanyo), or are trying to leave it (in the case of Philips) or are just putting their name put on other manufacturer's equipment (JVC, Hitachi,)

Nigel Goodwin · 18-01-2012, 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Many players in Europe have left the tv market (Harvard, Thomson, Sanyo), or are trying to leave it (in the case of Philips) or are just putting their name put on other manufacturer's equipment (JVC, Hitachi,)

Harvard never did anything else apart from badge cheap gear, they never made TV's - or any other products for many years.

1andrew1 · 18-01-2012, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Harvard never did anything else apart from badge cheap gear, they never made TV's - or any other products for many years.

Agreed but even they were losing money so had to exit the market selling their 50% stake in Grundig to Beko and their Bush and Alba brands in the UK to Argos.
As a footnote, Harvard itself looks set to fall into Chinese ownership next month (Geeya, set-top box manufacturer).

call100 · 18-01-2012, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Samsung sales are higher than Sony, but reliability of Samsung is FAR below that of Sony (or Panasonic).

The world loves a trier.....

soulboy77 · 18-01-2012, 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by trphil

Or they could all start selling them at a price where they make a profit rather than a loss?

Problem is that the average consumer is not so discerning that they will pay higher prices when there are plenty of cheapo budget TVs on the market. Sony, Panasonic and Samsung are forced to keep their prices lower than they want to in order to shift their manufactured volumes.

alan1302 · 18-01-2012, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by trphil

Or they could all start selling them at a price where they make a profit rather than a loss?

And people will pay these higher prices?

Peter the Great · 18-01-2012, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Presumably they feel that if they did this, no one would buy them and they would be making even bigger losses. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Many players in Europe have left the tv market (Harvard, Thomson, Sanyo), or are trying to leave it (in the case of Philips) or are just putting their name put on other manufacturer's equipment (JVC, Hitachi,)

Deleted.

Last edited by Peter the Great : 18-01-2012 at 20:14. Reason: Didn't read post properly.

Kodaz · 18-01-2012, 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

As a footnote, Harvard itself looks set to fall into Chinese ownership next month.

Either ironic or appropriate. Anyone around during the mid-to-late 80s will remember Alba (as Harvard was then known) were one of the first- and certainly most prominent- companies that built their success as a distributor of that first wave of cheaply-produced electronic goods to come out of China following the liberalisation of their markets. (Back when "Made in China" was far less common than it is now).

Ironically those were sold under the names of two defunct British manufacturers (Alba and Bush) that they acquired the names of. Given that *those* have been sold off, along with the other "zombie" brands (Grundig, Breville and Hinari) used to give a spurious gravitas to their cheap badge-engineered tat, the question has to be asked- what's left for the Chinese to be interested in?

Apparently they still own the "Goodmans" and "iLuv" brands and I can only imagine that any remaining value in the company rests in the "Goodmans" name. ("iLuv" sounds like some drivel they made up when they realised they'd sold off most of their other brands!)

1andrew1 · 18-01-2012, 21:38

The value in Harvard lies in its distribution networks and market knowledge of the UK and Australian markets.

It owns the Goodmans and View21 brands in the UK, Bush in Australia and licences the Grundig brand in Australia. It does not own ILuv, it distributes this US brand in Australia and the UK.

Kodaz · 18-01-2012, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The value in Harvard lies in its distribution networks and market knowledge of the UK and Australian markets.

Fair enough, that does sound plausible...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It owns the Goodmans and View21 brands in the UK,

View21 who? Never heard of them!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Bush in Australia and licences the Grundig brand in Australia.

Yep- rereading the WP article I notice it mentions Bush in Oceania elsewhere, but the parts I read just made it sound like the brands had been completely sold off without qualifying that by nation.

1andrew1 · 18-01-2012, 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodaz

View21 who? Never heard of them!

Understandable - View21 is Harvard's new brand for web-enabled set-top boxes. It is intended by Harvard as a key YouView brand. View21 differs from other Harvard products in that Harvard developed the products rather than just rebranding someone else's,

View21 is starting to get listed by retailers but as yet no boxes have been sold under the brand. It is listed here http://www.very.co.uk/view21-vw11fvs.../999548434.prd

The brand's website is coming soon here http://www.view21.com/

alanwarwic · 18-01-2012, 22:34

Maybe it is yet another saturated market?

It's weird how you can buy a very decent 42" TV for less than a tablet.

screaminjay · 20-01-2012, 14:13

Yes, I read about this too in the past. It is so strange that one of the biggest hit of the past few years... is making these companies lose money.

As a customer, I'm not complaining, it just doesn't seem to make sense. And really, it's everywhere like that. Anyone remember prices in the 1990's for electronics? It was all more expensive than today. I'm talking from the alarm clock radio to the big stereo to the VHS to computers. Everything was more expensive than it is today.

Is all that the making of China entrance into all these markets?

alan1302 · 20-01-2012, 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by screaminjay

Yes, I read about this too in the past. It is so strange that one of the biggest hit of the past few years... is making these companies lose money.

As a customer, I'm not complaining, it just doesn't seem to make sense. And really, it's everywhere like that. Anyone remember prices in the 1990's for electronics? It was all more expensive than today. I'm talking from the alarm clock radio to the big stereo to the VHS to computers. Everything was more expensive than it is today.

Is all that the making of China entrance into all these markets?

Probably partly China coming into the market and slashing the manufacturing costs down…most of the Chinese companies let the Japanese/Korean companies pay for the R&D costs and then they come in and make a cheap version and so the Japanese/Korean companies have to try and compete.

Orbitalzone · 20-01-2012, 18:25

I expect that it means that the vast majority if budget and branded TV's will end up being Vestel clones with just the very top end models being made by the top makers.

The big brand TV manfacturers have suffered for decades by trying to outsell each other to become brand leader.... regardless of whether they sold at a loss... didn't Sony experience this in the mid/late 1980's where they finally allowed Westerners into their business who pointed out that being number 1 brand was no good if you made massive losses?

Sibeber · 20-01-2012, 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by alan1302

Probably partly China coming into the market and slashing the manufacturing costs down…most of the Chinese companies let the Japanese/Korean companies pay for the R&D costs and then they come in and make a cheap version and so the Japanese/Korean companies have to try and compete.

But is it all crap ? In my house I have all the so called tat brands Bush, Alba, Grundig and they continue to serve me well .My tat Grundig 26 lcd tv is now into it's 7th Year of trusty service .If it packed up tomorrow I'd go and get another Argos cheapie for between £175 and £250 and i'm sure it will be fine.I'd love to spend more on a Panasonic.My lounge tv is a £349 42" plasma TV from Samsung and I love it .I also have a 42" Hitachi plasma that set me back £2000 7 years ago ..my Samsung blows it away .

Nigel Goodwin · 20-01-2012, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sibeber

I also have a 42" Hitachi plasma that set me back £2000 7 years ago ..my Samsung blows it away .

Your Hitachi Plasma is very probably just a cheap Vestel set, so not surprising a Samsung 'blows it away'

A seven year old Plasma is also a pretty low spec set, most probably not HD, and quite likely not even PAL resolution.

Do you know the model number of it?.

Sibeber · 21-01-2012, 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Your Hitachi Plasma is very probably just a cheap Vestel set, so not surprising a Samsung 'blows it away'

A seven year old Plasma is also a pretty low spec set, most probably not HD, and quite likely not even PAL resolution.

Do you know the model number of it?.

here is the brochure

http://www.hitachidigitalmedia.com/b..._datasheet.pdf

Nigel Goodwin · 21-01-2012, 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sibeber

here is the brochure

http://www.hitachidigitalmedia.com/b..._datasheet.pdf

Right, the service manual is dated 22/8/2006 (but says June 2006 on the front) - and it's an Alis panel, with the rather weird resolution of 1024x1024.

While it meets the requirements for HD Ready, they are absolutely useless on HD - I have a similar Hitachi/Vestel (mines a 42PD6600), and even though I have Freeview HD I never bother using it, as it's not really any better

Sibeber · 21-01-2012, 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Right, the service manual is dated 22/8/2006 (but says June 2006 on the front) - and it's an Alis panel, with the rather weird resolution of 1024x1024.

While it meets the requirements for HD Ready, they are absolutely useless on HD - I have a similar Hitachi/Vestel (mines a 42PD6600), and even though I have Freeview HD I never bother using it, as it's not really any better

whats an alis panel.? is this set a vestel ?

many thanks

Nigel Goodwin · 21-01-2012, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sibeber

whats an alis panel.? is this set a vestel ?

An AliS panel is a weird one - it has a completely perculiar resolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alterna...ng_of_surfaces

There's nothing specific in the manual to say if it's Vestel or not, but it's most likely to be - Hitachi make very few sets themselves.

But the fact it's an ALiS panel means that it's really poor on HD, which is why a Samsung HD set will absolutely wipe the floor with it. But Hitachi ceased to be a decent manufacturer decades ago - for the last 20+ years they have been on a par with Bush, Goodmans etc.

18-01-2012, 12:14	#1
1andrew1 Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,981	LCD screen manufacturers lost a combined $13bn from 2004-2010 http://www.economist.com/blogs/schum.../bl/crackingup It's set to get worse with more capacity coming online from China thus driving down prices. Sony loses $45 per every tv it sells and Panasonic's tv business has not made money for four years. I think the only solution will be if two of the big four (Samsung, Sony, Panasonic, LG) merge or one exits. Could we see Sony depart from the sector or move more upmarket? I'm a Sony fan but I've read that both their reliability - and sales - have both fallen behind Samsung in the last couple of years.

18-01-2012, 20:59	#12
Kodaz Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,006	Living Next Door to iLuv.. iLuv? Who the **** are iLuv?! Quote: Originally Posted by 1andrew1 As a footnote, Harvard itself looks set to fall into Chinese ownership next month. Either ironic or appropriate. Anyone around during the mid-to-late 80s will remember Alba (as Harvard was then known) were one of the first- and certainly most prominent- companies that built their success as a distributor of that first wave of cheaply-produced electronic goods to come out of China following the liberalisation of their markets. (Back when "Made in China" was far less common than it is now). Ironically those were sold under the names of two defunct British manufacturers (Alba and Bush) that they acquired the names of. Given that those have been sold off, along with the other "zombie" brands (Grundig, Breville and Hinari) used to give a spurious gravitas to their cheap badge-engineered tat, the question has to be asked- what's left for the Chinese to be interested in? Apparently they still own the "Goodmans" and "iLuv" brands and I can only imagine that any remaining value in the company rests in the "Goodmans" name. ("iLuv" sounds like some drivel they made up when they realised they'd sold off most of their other brands!)

18-01-2012, 12:55	#2
trphil Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The City of Chelmsford, Essex Posts: 2,704	Quote: Originally Posted by 1andrew1 I think the only solution will be if two of the big four (Samsung, Sony, Panasonic, LG) merge or one exits. Or they could all start selling them at a price where they make a profit rather than a loss?

18-01-2012, 13:01	#3
webbie Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: North Devon Posts: 1,568	Well Samsung expect to make a profit of $4.5bn for the last quarter (the whole company). They are investing $41bn in 2012. $6bn on tvs including OLED.

18-01-2012, 13:03	#4
Nigel Goodwin Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Derbyshire Posts: 41,789	Quote: Originally Posted by 1andrew1 Could we see Sony depart from the sector or move more upmarket? I'm a Sony fan but I've read that both their reliability - and sales - have both fallen behind Samsung in the last couple of years. Samsung sales are higher than Sony, but reliability of Samsung is FAR below that of Sony (or Panasonic).

18-01-2012, 14:21	#5
1andrew1 Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,981	Quote: Originally Posted by trphil Or they could all start selling them at a price where they make a profit rather than a loss? Presumably they feel that if they did this, no one would buy them and they would be making even bigger losses. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Many players in Europe have left the tv market (Harvard, Thomson, Sanyo), or are trying to leave it (in the case of Philips) or are just putting their name put on other manufacturer's equipment (JVC, Hitachi,)

18-01-2012, 14:24	#6
Nigel Goodwin Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Derbyshire Posts: 41,789	Quote: Originally Posted by 1andrew1 Many players in Europe have left the tv market (Harvard, Thomson, Sanyo), or are trying to leave it (in the case of Philips) or are just putting their name put on other manufacturer's equipment (JVC, Hitachi,) Harvard never did anything else apart from badge cheap gear, they never made TV's - or any other products for many years.

18-01-2012, 14:32	#7
1andrew1 Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,981	Quote: Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin Harvard never did anything else apart from badge cheap gear, they never made TV's - or any other products for many years. Agreed but even they were losing money so had to exit the market selling their 50% stake in Grundig to Beko and their Bush and Alba brands in the UK to Argos. As a footnote, Harvard itself looks set to fall into Chinese ownership next month (Geeya, set-top box manufacturer).

18-01-2012, 18:54	#8
call100 Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,572	Quote: Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin Samsung sales are higher than Sony, but reliability of Samsung is FAR below that of Sony (or Panasonic). The world loves a trier.....

18-01-2012, 19:07	#9
soulboy77 Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Herts Posts: 17,005	Quote: Originally Posted by trphil Or they could all start selling them at a price where they make a profit rather than a loss? Problem is that the average consumer is not so discerning that they will pay higher prices when there are plenty of cheapo budget TVs on the market. Sony, Panasonic and Samsung are forced to keep their prices lower than they want to in order to shift their manufactured volumes.

18-01-2012, 19:50	#10
alan1302 Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: West Yorks Posts: 6,180	Quote: Originally Posted by trphil Or they could all start selling them at a price where they make a profit rather than a loss? And people will pay these higher prices?

18-01-2012, 20:10	#11
Peter the Great Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,078	Quote: Originally Posted by 1andrew1 Presumably they feel that if they did this, no one would buy them and they would be making even bigger losses. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Many players in Europe have left the tv market (Harvard, Thomson, Sanyo), or are trying to leave it (in the case of Philips) or are just putting their name put on other manufacturer's equipment (JVC, Hitachi,) Deleted. Last edited by Peter the Great : 18-01-2012 at 20:14. Reason: Didn't read post properly.

18-01-2012, 21:38	#13
1andrew1 Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,981	The value in Harvard lies in its distribution networks and market knowledge of the UK and Australian markets. It owns the Goodmans and View21 brands in the UK, Bush in Australia and licences the Grundig brand in Australia. It does not own ILuv, it distributes this US brand in Australia and the UK.

18-01-2012, 22:08	#14
Kodaz Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,006	Quote: Originally Posted by 1andrew1 The value in Harvard lies in its distribution networks and market knowledge of the UK and Australian markets. Fair enough, that does sound plausible... Quote: Originally Posted by 1andrew1 It owns the Goodmans and View21 brands in the UK, View21 who? Never heard of them! Quote: Originally Posted by 1andrew1 Bush in Australia and licences the Grundig brand in Australia. Yep- rereading the WP article I notice it mentions Bush in Oceania elsewhere, but the parts I read just made it sound like the brands had been completely sold off without qualifying that by nation.

18-01-2012, 22:23	#15
1andrew1 Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,981	Quote: Originally Posted by Kodaz View21 who? Never heard of them! Understandable - View21 is Harvard's new brand for web-enabled set-top boxes. It is intended by Harvard as a key YouView brand. View21 differs from other Harvard products in that Harvard developed the products rather than just rebranding someone else's, View21 is starting to get listed by retailers but as yet no boxes have been sold under the brand. It is listed here http://www.very.co.uk/view21-vw11fvs.../999548434.prd The brand's website is coming soon here http://www.view21.com/

18-01-2012, 22:34	#16
alanwarwic Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: the wild world web Posts: 28,132	Maybe it is yet another saturated market? It's weird how you can buy a very decent 42" TV for less than a tablet.

20-01-2012, 14:13	#17
screaminjay Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 2	Yes, I read about this too in the past. It is so strange that one of the biggest hit of the past few years... is making these companies lose money. As a customer, I'm not complaining, it just doesn't seem to make sense. And really, it's everywhere like that. Anyone remember prices in the 1990's for electronics? It was all more expensive than today. I'm talking from the alarm clock radio to the big stereo to the VHS to computers. Everything was more expensive than it is today. Is all that the making of China entrance into all these markets?

20-01-2012, 15:15	#18
alan1302 Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: West Yorks Posts: 6,180	Quote: Originally Posted by screaminjay Yes, I read about this too in the past. It is so strange that one of the biggest hit of the past few years... is making these companies lose money. As a customer, I'm not complaining, it just doesn't seem to make sense. And really, it's everywhere like that. Anyone remember prices in the 1990's for electronics? It was all more expensive than today. I'm talking from the alarm clock radio to the big stereo to the VHS to computers. Everything was more expensive than it is today. Is all that the making of China entrance into all these markets? Probably partly China coming into the market and slashing the manufacturing costs down…most of the Chinese companies let the Japanese/Korean companies pay for the R&D costs and then they come in and make a cheap version and so the Japanese/Korean companies have to try and compete.

20-01-2012, 18:25	#19
Orbitalzone Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Sussex Posts: 12,173	I expect that it means that the vast majority if budget and branded TV's will end up being Vestel clones with just the very top end models being made by the top makers. The big brand TV manfacturers have suffered for decades by trying to outsell each other to become brand leader.... regardless of whether they sold at a loss... didn't Sony experience this in the mid/late 1980's where they finally allowed Westerners into their business who pointed out that being number 1 brand was no good if you made massive losses?

20-01-2012, 18:31	#20
Sibeber Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 544	Quote: Originally Posted by alan1302 Probably partly China coming into the market and slashing the manufacturing costs down…most of the Chinese companies let the Japanese/Korean companies pay for the R&D costs and then they come in and make a cheap version and so the Japanese/Korean companies have to try and compete. But is it all crap ? In my house I have all the so called tat brands Bush, Alba, Grundig and they continue to serve me well .My tat Grundig 26 lcd tv is now into it's 7th Year of trusty service .If it packed up tomorrow I'd go and get another Argos cheapie for between £175 and £250 and i'm sure it will be fine.I'd love to spend more on a Panasonic.My lounge tv is a £349 42" plasma TV from Samsung and I love it .I also have a 42" Hitachi plasma that set me back £2000 7 years ago ..my Samsung blows it away .

20-01-2012, 20:40	#21
Nigel Goodwin Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Derbyshire Posts: 41,789	Quote: Originally Posted by Sibeber I also have a 42" Hitachi plasma that set me back £2000 7 years ago ..my Samsung blows it away . Your Hitachi Plasma is very probably just a cheap Vestel set, so not surprising a Samsung 'blows it away' A seven year old Plasma is also a pretty low spec set, most probably not HD, and quite likely not even PAL resolution. Do you know the model number of it?.

21-01-2012, 10:46	#22
Sibeber Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 544	Quote: Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin Your Hitachi Plasma is very probably just a cheap Vestel set, so not surprising a Samsung 'blows it away' A seven year old Plasma is also a pretty low spec set, most probably not HD, and quite likely not even PAL resolution. Do you know the model number of it?. here is the brochure http://www.hitachidigitalmedia.com/b..._datasheet.pdf

DS Forums

LCD screen manufacturers lost a combined $13bn from 2004-2010

21-01-2012, 11:06	#23
Nigel Goodwin Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Derbyshire Posts: 41,789	Quote: Originally Posted by Sibeber here is the brochure http://www.hitachidigitalmedia.com/b..._datasheet.pdf Right, the service manual is dated 22/8/2006 (but says June 2006 on the front) - and it's an Alis panel, with the rather weird resolution of 1024x1024. While it meets the requirements for HD Ready, they are absolutely useless on HD - I have a similar Hitachi/Vestel (mines a 42PD6600), and even though I have Freeview HD I never bother using it, as it's not really any better

21-01-2012, 11:22	#24
Sibeber Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 544	Quote: Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin Right, the service manual is dated 22/8/2006 (but says June 2006 on the front) - and it's an Alis panel, with the rather weird resolution of 1024x1024. While it meets the requirements for HD Ready, they are absolutely useless on HD - I have a similar Hitachi/Vestel (mines a 42PD6600), and even though I have Freeview HD I never bother using it, as it's not really any better whats an alis panel.? is this set a vestel ? many thanks

21-01-2012, 13:05	#25
Nigel Goodwin Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Derbyshire Posts: 41,789	Quote: Originally Posted by Sibeber whats an alis panel.? is this set a vestel ? An AliS panel is a weird one - it has a completely perculiar resolution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alterna...ng_of_surfaces There's nothing specific in the manual to say if it's Vestel or not, but it's most likely to be - Hitachi make very few sets themselves. But the fact it's an ALiS panel means that it's really poor on HD, which is why a Samsung HD set will absolutely wipe the floor with it. But Hitachi ceased to be a decent manufacturer decades ago - for the last 20+ years they have been on a par with Bush, Goodmans etc.