Oooh, something to look forward to in school.


It's my dad's theory, but I'm taking credit for the details . Can't let the old man have all the fun and kudos!

He picked up on Sherlock's speechlessness at the journalist's flat and came up with that. I don't know if I see it myself. What is it that Sherlock could see to make him realise it's a different Moriarty? After all, Moriarty is acting in role as Rich Brook, so his mannerisms are supposed to be different. So maybe it's something which we need Sherlock-vision for!

But I like the theory. It explains a bit more about the episode, such as why Sherlock made the phonecall to John. After all, to save his friends, he didn't have to make the phonecall, he just had to kill himself, especially now that Moriarty was dead. So why make the phonecall? Because he doesn't want Watson looking into his death too closely? Or he wants the real Moriarty to believe he's dead via Watson's reactions. Watson has to make it believable for Moriarty, not just his henchmen.

It would perhaps also explain Moriarty's 'You are me' on the roof. He has major ID problems.

Of course, this being Moffat, we're probably way off!


I'd be quite happy for Moriarty to be dead and not make a return, to be honest. Not because I didn't think he was a great character, but because a villain often loses something with repeat appearances (Daleks, the Borg, Spike, etc) and it would be a shame to do this with Moriarty.

But I have faith in Moffat and Gatiss to make it work, whatever it is they choose to do...

well i just think Moriarty used a Sherlock mask to make the two kids scared Sherlock.
Sherlock placed this mask on a body given to him by Molly.

lets face it she works in the morgue at Barts Hospital the same building he jumped off

.

I'm really glad you've brought this up as we haven't discussed much about the symbolism in this episode. These are some of what I think I've spotted:

Religious Symbolism, Myths, Legends, Fairytales



IOU -> apple -> [Adam and Eve] -> The FALL (Moriarty in Sherlock's flat)

Moriarty: "I owe you a Fall"

Graffiti - IOU and angel's wings (black) -> FALLen angel? -> Moriarty? Sherlock?

Moriarty: "I will burn you. I will burn the heart out of you" -> (Series 1, episode 3) -> Satan -> Hell?

"You are on the side of the angels"

Sherlock to Moriarty: "I may be on the side of the angels but don't think for one second that I am one of them"

Sherlock: "But I am not my brother, remember. I am you. Prepared to do anything; prepared to burn. Prepared to do what ordinary people won't do. You want me to shake hands with you in Hell? I shall not disappoint you."

Given the number of times I have listened to 'Stayin' Alive', I never knew these lyrics were in there lol:

Well now, I get low and I get high
And if I can't get either, I really try
Got the wings of Heaven on my shoes
I'm a dancin' man and I just can't lose

http://www.metrolyrics.com/stayin-al...-bee-gees.html

Heaven/Hell?


Myths, Legends, Fairytales

Arthurian Legend

Moriarty's story of "Sir Boastalot". I kept thinking he was saying Sir Launcelot. Anyway, Sir Lancelot: unique, brave and perfect knight, who FALLs into disgrace after his indiscretion with Guinevere.

Sir Lancelot eventually hangs himself -> mannequin hanging in Sherlock's flat -> in the ACD canon, a dummy representing Sherlock is used in 'The Adventure of the Empty House' -> Sherlock Holmes returns after his apparent death in 'The Final Problem' story.

Sherlock to Kitty in her flat: "He turns up with the Holy Grail in his pockets..."

Kitty -> tabloid journalist/gutter press -> build up a celebrity then watch them FALL

Kitty's flat -> 'MAKE BELIEVE' on the wall

Grimm's Fairytales -> Hansel and Gretel -> kidnap children -> breadcrumbs, sweets

Gingerbread man -> "burnt to a crisp" ??

Moriarty on the roof: "I love newspapers - fairytales! And pretty grim ones at that." -> make believe?

Sherlock jumps -> the cross -> [Jesus' sacrifice] -> Jesus said: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15. 12-13

John at Sherlock's graveside: "...There were times I didn't think you were human... I was so alone, and I owe you so much...There's just one more thing, Sherlock; for me; one more miracle - don't be dead. Just stop this. Stop it."

Just some more thoughts to add to the mix.

Gosh this Nina Simone song played before Moriarty's trial is also full of religious symbolism, isn't it?

Sinnerman

The song is referring to the the book of Revelation and the Last Judgement. The whole book is chock full of symbolism and powerful imagery that one could spend a lifetime trying to work out lol.

As I'm too tired to go into it now, I'll leave it to wiki for now, as they give a list of the symbolism there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

The fall of the star (Wormwood), the Archangel Michael, and Satan seem to jump out at me in regards to the Sherlock episode we are fixated on at the moment, for some reason.

And just to add (although it most likely isn't relevant either), I have been intrigued by Sherlock's praying hands pose throughout all the episodes. And in the last episode I couldn't help noticing that Moriarty/Rich Brook uses the same pose and asks for forgiveness (in Kitty's flat scene). Also, in the last scene with Mycroft, he uses the exact same pose with his hands too. Just strikes me as an odd thing to do for the latter two especially.


Okayyy, I'm definitely going to try to stop thinking about it all now. Over and out.

The bit which I don't get to fit with this hypothesis (there is simply not enough verifiable evidence for it to be a theory) is Holmes's taxi ride with Moriarty. Here he is both in character as the teasing kids' TV presenter and the taxi driver. Holmes does not recognize the character on the screen or the driver to be anyone other than the same Moriarty as visited his flat.

Was there a body switch (ie did Watson feel the pulse of an already dead body supplied from the mortuary), or did Sherlock play dead? I’ve tended towards the “played dead” option, because of the rubber ball. However, if it were a body switch, then that might explain why Sherlock threw away his phone on top of the building – otherwise it would have had to be on the body at the bottom. Probably not an issue (there are more obvious reasons why people would realise it wasn’t really Sherlock), it’s just a thought.

The body certainly didn't look like someone who had jumped off a 60 foot high building

Moriarty: "I owe you a Fall"

-> maybe we just misheard and he actually said "I owe you apple", which makes sense as he'd just bit a chunk out of Sherlock's. Don't know if this is the "everyone's missed it" thing that the writer's been going on about.

Exactly- but it is Sherlock and Sherlock did jump- we just didn't see landing

You mean we didn't see him fall - he could have jumped on to a slightly lower roof.

Well I suppose I meant we didn't see all the fall- clearly he survived- so he didn't fall 60ft onto concrete - it will be interesting to see how it's explained- hope it's not to convoluted- it shouldn't take more than a couple of scenes to explain but I feel whatever explanation is given some people will feel shortchanged

Here's my theory which I don't think I've noticed anyone else putting forward (probably because it's rubbish!)

When SH and M are on the roof they have a conversation about S being on the side of the angels (which I didn't understand!) and the sun shines in M's eyes and he suddenly seems to change his behaviour slightly, he moves and speaks quite slowly and blinks very slowly, as though drunk. I wonder if S slips him some kind of drug, maybe the HOUND hallucinogen, and that's why M shoots himself? Just a thought ...

I think you need to go outside for a while.

the big problem with the Chocolate Monke dad's theory is that it steps to far away from ACD books, in fact you would be changing the whole this about the books. ACD killed off Moriarty so he could move on, he only put Moriarty into the books so he could Kill Holmes off and was never a big person in the books.

ok i know this is a new Holmes but keeping Moriarty alive would be just wrong.

but i do fear they might just do that.

In fairness ACD killed off Sherlock Holmes and then resurrected him- Sherlock was brought back from the dead-after something like that happens to a character-all bets are off the table

Moriarty has been a big presence throughout the series thusfar- even if he had only about 15 mins screen time before the Reichenback Falls- people may say he wasn't that big a presence in the books but he's one of the first associations you make with Sherlock Holmes after Dr. Watson- and after Andrew Scott's performance, few people who have watched this series will forget him

We should assume Moriarty's dead- of course-but there was something about his suicide then didn't quite sit right with me- we will see

Finally got round to watching this on saturday... gonna swim against the tide and say I found it quite boring. It really didn't hold my attention.

hey ho, onward and upwards.

oh dear....theres always one lol

but we all cant like the same things.

Absolutely

Out of interest- which bits were boring

The part where Moriarty breaks into the Bank of England, the Tower of London and Pentonville Prison and steals the crown jewels accompanied by Rossini's The Thieving Magpie

The (sinnerman) Trial

Sherlock and Moriarty having tea

The Rich Brook expose

The rooftop showdown

Sherlock leaping to his 'death'

Watson's graveside plea



Boring isn't a word I would use to describe it

Yeah I'm in the play-dead-look-I-have-no-pulse camp now. I wonder if the people who were crowding round were the irregulars and he needed Molly for some spare hospital clothes for them. Plus the blood spatter.

And nethwen you've made me realise just how much symbolism there was in that episode. It's kinda refreshing to have that instead of constant pop culture references.

And Moriarty triplets? I wouldn't know whether to drool or be terrified!

Was away last Sunday so caught up now, and will probably rematch it later. But I nearly teared up at John at the graveside. Was actually my favourite part (I loved it all though.)

Though I did enjoy the trial and 'sinnerman'. My theory is much like what has been said. So I won't repeat it.

someone put on twitter thats theres not much free time to film S3 due to both of the actors are working on other stuff. Freeman is filming The Hobbit, that should end soon?

Actually, perhaps boring is not the right word. I just didn't find it interesting. I'm afraid to say I didn't pay enough attention to identify any specific bits. At one point I wandered off to make a cup of tea... another I picked up the tv pages to see what else was on, so clearly it didn't ring my bell

Fair enough

Most posting on here together and judging from the coverage in the Daily Mail and some proper newspapers, several million more casual viewers have invested quite a bit of time and effort trying to figure out what is going on here.

Now I personally don’t care whether there are two Moriarties, Sherlock has a double, masks were used, he jumps into a laundry (or was it rubbish) truck or onto a massive airbag. I would like to know the significance of IOU, Angels and would like to think that at least some of the characters have some integrity and are what they appear to be.

The classic “whodunit” requires that there are sufficient clues left throughout the story that when the full story is revealed in the last few pages (or in the next episode) one can say ….ahhh! that’s how they did it.

My greatest fear here is that Moffat/Gatiss/Vertue et al. have concocted a scenario so bizarre that it does not just stretch our credulity, but considers it of no consequence.

Now I am not asking that the puzzle should be presented as a 2-piece jigsaw but when we know the answer it has to seem that we the viewers have just been a bit unobservant or slow on the uptake. Perhaps even a few will be able to say “told you so” and point to a post on here.

Moffat has track record here and I do hope he does not disappoint by leaving us feeling either bewildered or short-changed through leaving massive plot holes or leaping onto a plot going in another direction entirely.

I’ve read that Sherlock has been the biggest modern drama success since Life on Mars and the follow-up Ashes to Ashes. In the last of these the writers became too clever for their own boots and we were ultimately presented with retcon. I do hope the same is not in store for us here. No Bobby Ewing shower moments either, please.

I

yes they are all dead, Sherlock is helping them move on..........has that been done yet? lol