im sorry but i find it all bollocks that its prejudice cos there black if that was the case rowetta would have bin there too!!!

im as shocked as anyone that they were i the bottom two i thought they were great but it gets on me tits that peopel jump on oh its cos there black wagon .......can we say roberta got ther cos she was white :??? and irish get real guys!!

The GBP are a total mystery after all didn't Mr Blobby make number 1?

From tonights performance I don't think any of the acts have the X factor that will keep them in the public eye for more than a short time. Maybe I'll change my mind next week.

the fact michelle is scottish has something to do with it
i really do love her singing, her album's simply superb
i particularly enjoyed the fantastic b-side of michelle's last single ~ 'believe'

Barry White seemed to do quite well for a large black man.

I can't believe that people seriously think that the vote was anything to do with racism. If it wasn't so laughable it would be sad.

IMO VWS were miles better than Verity or Roberta.

Always expect the unexpected from the British public.

I think you made a very good point that they were on first, so they are less prominent in people's thoughts.

And your second point is okay too in that their style might not excite. But on that score you have to comapre them with several of the other acts. The studio audience were very impressed with Voices to Soul.

But I disagree that you feel that SIMPLY AMAZING is arguing against himself/herself. Some of us are talking about a subtle effect, and we don't know how close Rowetta was to the bottom.
But, you still have to compare Voices with Soul with some of the acts that got through and be open to all suggestions.

You seem to think that it's all about blatant racism, some of us feel that it is more to do with a very subconcious prejudice where race becomes a factor.
An earlier post mentioned the voters having an affinity with who they are voting for.
This doesn't work against the race bias suggestion, it works for it.
Because if more white people are voting, then they may have more affinity with a white act.

Lots of variables going on...I don't think you can just dismiss the issue of race.
Although I don't feel exactly the same as SIMPLY AMAZING, I think he makes some very valid points, and I may be wrong and he may be right.

I'd say that I've seen some shades of racism in this thread..(not you)

Erm, apart from Margaret Atwood, Arundhati Roy, Pat Barker, A.S. Byatt, Penelope Lively, Anita Brookner, Penelope Fitzgerald, Iris Murdoch, Ruth Jhabvala, Nadine Gordimer and Bernice Rubens, that is!


I only logged in here tonight because I knew there would be a thread like this, because there always is - because it always happens. And every time people say it's some kind of coincidence.

I expected Voices With Soul to be in the bottom two because black women, especially fat black women, always get a raw deal on UK Reality TV shows. Simple as. They will probably be in the bottom two again next week along with Roweta. You may not want to believe such widespread prejudice exists, but as far as I'm concerned if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a ******* duck!

I expect VWS to be out in one or two weeks, I will be plesantly surprised if they go all the way.

'Shades'? how dare you.

What I can't get over in threads like this, isn't the fact that people put forward the view that racism may be a factor in voting, it's the way that some people have to react and jump on the defensive bandwagon of....

'Oh, there's always someone coming up with the 'race card'' or 'I'm fed up of people like you always saying these things are about race'.

Have you any idea what that looks like? To me (do forgive) it seems dismissive and defensive. Other folks can just say they don't agree and there may be other reasons...but there seem to be just some folk who love bashing people who want to talk about race being a voting factor. What is THAT about?

Personally speaking I think that people vote...or don't vote...for a variety of reasons. If there are people out there who are racist (let's not deny that there are), then that MAY be a voting factor. You can't say that race is NOT a voting factor.

Let's live in the real world folks.

I agree with you completely.

If people post all sorts of reasons for someone being unpopular, such as the contestant is too old, too fat, too ugly, wrong image, bad hair, or too arrogant, too timid(Verity), or any other reason that has nothing to do with actual singing talent....
..Oh people accept all manner of those reasons, no problem. Threads like that are no problem.

But if you just suggest race as possibly being another reason,....some people get angry with you mentioning it and try to undermine your opinion and mock you with ridiculous exaggerations.
Why?
Why isn't the suggestion of race being a factor as plausible as all those other reasons?

It's simply another reason to consider amongst all the ones I mention above, that don't get as hostile a reception with people.

You do have a good point there. But I don't feel we can equate cultural identification with racism, which is what this arguement comes down to. The only reason I can think of white people having more affinity with a white act is that culturally they might be the same - eg music they like and identify with. But surely soul music, music performed on the show by black artists is engrained in the culture of white people in the UK. The song Voices of Soul sang is well known and part of the culture people identify with.

We could look at these shows and say when was the last time we saw pacific asians represented? Why don't we? I don't know the answer.

I suppose I am saying whilst there is no doubt racism is alive and well in Britain today, I do not feel it was a major factor in Voices of Soul being in the bottom 2 tonight.

I agree with you 100%, but lets also not deny that just as there are white people making votes based on race that there are also black people doing the same. Black people sometime forget that racism is a two-way street.
I never hear white people shout racism when white contestants are voted out, why do blacks have to bring it up every time?

I agree, it's just an opinion.
Luckily you do get people who simply disagree, or who are slightly sceptical of the idea, but those people examine the point and debate well.

But as you say,..some people appear a tad too reactionary in the manner they undermine a poster and mock them. I think that the reason for that is often to kill a discussion dead before it develops.

Why do "blacks" have to bring it up?

They don't have to. They feel like it as they are entitled to post thoughts and opinions like anyone else.

You make a fair point about racism against whites. But you have to consider the amount of white voters compared to black. So if racism against whites is a factor it's going to be much less dramatic a factor.

Mind you, like I've already said, blatant out and out racism isn't the only measure of prejudice. Just a subtle prejudice is enough. Prejudice that many won't even be aware of.

Because racism is institutionalised. Because there are more white people than black people....etc etc. There are more black people in poverty...more likely to be arrested and imprisioned etc etc.

Racism and the effect of discrimination is about power imbalance. In the UK (as a whole) white people have far more power (e.g. economic and political). Look at the House of Commons and Lords. What % are black...does that represent a fair proportion?

I dunno...but it isn't always as 'two-way' simple as that, if you are generalising, that is...taking a global look at it.

So Rowetta got through because of her lily-white skin then?

There are some very good gospel-style acts around but VWS are so typical of a lot of acts in their genre who think shouting as loud as you can amounts to singing. Add to that the fact that they are not the easiest on the eye among the contestants and they don't exactly make for a very appealing act (and as hard as some people try to judge purely on voice and insist that they do judge purely on voice, people are only human, you don't honestly think the handful of votes Roberta got today were for her voice do you?)

Face it, it wouldn't matter if VWS were gold plated, they didn't get the votes because they are dire. If it is almost as if they are guaranteed to be voted out next week it will not be totally undeserved and it will be purely because they are not up to the standard of some of the others.

I'm possibly one of those that 'appear a tad too reactionary', by asking 'who voted for Rowetta'. I stand by that question though, as I see it as a valid point in the racism argument.

Yes I don't doubt that racism is alive and kicking in this country, however there is also an awful lot of people who don't even consider colour as a factor when voting for this or any other reality tv contest.

Ok...there are comparisons with Rowetta (mixed race, I am assuming here).

Leaving OUT the race factor, for the moment...what did VWS have against them?

1. First on
2. Louis Walsh is seen by some as arrogant. Many dislike him (I do!)
3. There are a number of female acts of multiple singers (note, we don't have a 'typical' boy band in the finals)
4. Some have commented on their looks and weight.
5. Not a lot of media/airplay focus, compared with some contestants. Do we feel we 'know' them?

Going for them?

1. Fabulous singers. Great act. Very entertaining.
2. Better than many tonight.

Rowetta: against. At times, over-emotional for some.

Going for her?

1. Great singer.
2. Massive personality.
3. Simon's group.
4. Not many 'new' 38 year old female artists emerging.
5. Much more airplay. People are getting to know Rowetta.

If race is a factor...or it's not...you can't put Rowetta and VWS into the same bag at all. There are a whole load of other factors, IMO. Not at this stage in the game anyway.

Why does "fair" have to be measured in % black vs % white ?? Explain to me whats not fair about there being less black than white people in the House of Commons ?
We can't possibly have equal numbers of races, sexes, sexual orientation, religions etc etc in every single organisation, company, commitee, parlement in the world. The fact that things aren't always equal does not always mean it's not fair. Think about it.

I'll always dispute that racism is not a significant factor in music reality shows. You only have to watch MTV for a couple of hours and you'll see that black artists make up a far greater proportion of popular music than black people represent as an ethnic minority in this country.

Doesn't that suggest that when it comes to music, the vast majority of people don't care?

"You do have a good point there. But I don't feel we can equate cultural identification with racism, which is what this arguement comes down to."

I think some could argue that you could.
The last part of your statement I don't agree with.
This argument does not need to come down to whether people are racist or not. I don't believe it's as black and white as that. (excuse the term)

There are levels and shades of grey. If we just beat each other with a simplistic argument, nobody is going to convince each other either way.
If I don't necessarily feel that I must defend an argument that all the voters are racist, I won't.
But what I will do is express any support for points raised, and offer my own opinion that may not be all for one side, or all for the other.
If we just go for an argument that defines "sides" then we will get absolutely nowhere.

The point you mention about white people and black people having an affinity with their own race is something I agree with to a large extent. That's where subtel prejudice comes into it, and CAN cross over to racism in many cases.

You also mention voters watching the show identifying with a certain type of music, but we're not talking about the UK here. We're talking about a very specific slice of the UK population who watch The X Factor.
A lot is going to depend on who the majority of that audience is made up of.

I agree completely with your point about pacific asians.

I know that you don't believe racism is as big a factor as some of us on here. But I do respect your view, and I really appreciate your approach to the way you handle yourself in this thread.

Though i think that racism is still alive in Britain today, i really dont think it had anything to do with them being in the bottom two. Most of the rest have a hook to vote for them, VWS and Roberta didn`t.

Lets be honest, people usually win shows because of a hook, not talent. When Kate was near the final of Big Brother, their was alot of talk about their never being a female BB winner, so a bandwagon started to get a female winner. When Cameron won it was about a Good guy winning for once. When Michelle won PI their was alot of talk about it was about time a larger women won. One of the reason people voted for Alex Park was because of a bandwagon against the usual manufactured reality winner, and also because of her sensitive persona, not just because of her talent.

At the end of the day i think it is the people that the audience are interested in are going to win, and VWS dont have an interesting hook.

You have Rowenta who is crazy, people want to see if shes going to crack under the pressure, so keep her in, and i think she will stay in.
Their is Verity, again alot of people are going to vote for her because of her missed opportunity, controlling husband, last chance background.
The Opera guys, again people are interested in what they are going to do, and also because they are different.
Tabby, is another Ainsley, a bit of an anarchy that entertains, and so on.

The last two, though undoutedly talented, were the two out of the whole group that didn`t have some kind of hook to vote for them. Because of the lack of a hook, they seemed bland.

I also felt that though the chosen song did show their voice off, it again was quite a bland song. The way that sang it was also like a blatant copy of the original, and they added nothing of their own personality or originality to it, though you could say that to most of the acts.

As for the comment for Lemar not winning FA. IMHO that was more to do with the fact that alot of people felt that the teachers gave him unfair treatment compared to the rest, thus a backlash started.

We can't always have fair representation, but I think it still shows that the power is with white people. That's all I'm saying. It cannot be discounted. Think about that.

So.. from the arguments here, let me get this straight...

I'm racist because I want G4 to win and would vote for them instead of Voices with Soul?

Am I also racist because I don't like, and therefore won't vote for, Verity?

Should I just place one vote for each contestant every week - regardless of who I like best - so the PC brigade can be satisfied?

No, not at all. Those aren't the actions that come from being racist. That's just taste.

If VWS sounded fab to you, better than the others and you decided not to vote for them because they are black or because you only vote for white people. then that is probably racist.