He must be because he got rid of Lloyd and Odis (?)!!! Or is he just racist against black men!!!

You know this is absolutely ridiculous. I am a tennis fan and I like Venus Williams but I dislike Serena Williams. Anyway I was speaking to a black girl at work who also loves tennis and we often converse about it. I said I didn't like Serena but like Venus and she hasn't spoken to me from that day until now because she said "I didn't realise you were racist". No matter how much I tried to tell her that I'm not racist because I like Venus, she didn't want to hear it. All she could hear/see was that I was racist. So no matter how much we try to tell the first post that we are not racist, they will not hear/see it. So why bother???

Got to disagree here. I didnt see any of Javine, but Lemar got voted off because the public were sick of the judges fawning and he was signing the same old black music standards we've all heard - sang em very well but no-one was listening by the time they found out what the song was.

Sad but true - we all remember g..g..g..g..gareth, but let's get the idea out of our heads that its a talent contest. It's all about popularity - pure and simple - and the british public like the boy or girl next door, and generally the likes of VWS dont live next door so the GBP cant relate to them.

Technically it's a majority white European country..- why wouldn't the majority power be with the white people???

Same thing in France/Germany/Austria/Spain/Hungary/Poland/ etc etc

While there are some bad eggs out there, I'd say we were very tolerant as a society who's always trying to be picked apart by the PC Brigade who want everything to be equal - but only as equal as they say it should be!

for a start, Rowetta is not black, she's mixed-race. This may seem irrelevant or trivial to many of you, but it's fact nevertheless.

secondly, nothing irritates me more than people automatically scoffing at the merest hint of a suggestion of prejudice (in this situation, I believe racism to be a bit too strong) Remember, just because you're overly paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

For what it's worth, I don't believe it's necessarily racism or prejudice, but I believe that, with the overwhelming majority of voters being white, it stands to reason that it will be less likely for a black act to be a voter's 'favourite' or standout choice. In my view, this is where the voting system is flawed. Why should I be voting for my choice to win when it won't even be decided for many weeks yet? Surely I should be voting for whom I would like eliminated? Then we'd be in no doubt as to whom we wanted out, as opposed to whom we'd MOST wanted in. I've no doubt in my mind that had the voting been that way round, Verity would have been packing her bags as she was CLEARLY the weakest on the night. But whilst we're having to continually vote for our favourites, certain groups of people will clearly be at a disadvantage.

I definitely don't believe it to be a case of "they're black, i don't want them to win," but rather "they're good/great/average/fantastic (delete as appropriate) but I prefer so-and-so instead.

To everybody that jumped all over SIMPLY AMAZING, consider this: out of all the televised talent shows, are we to conclude that the best guy always won? or that no black act had deserved to have been seriously in the running AND/OR win? And do you see that trend ever changing? Look at a lot of music in the charts and music television these days. There's a lot of R'nB and Rap music, predominantly black music, topping the charts. How come then, this hasn't been reflected in the reality shows? How come blacks traditionally don't do well in these shows?

Remember when Simon was down to his last 10? there were like 7/8 black people there (most or probably ALL would have had more of a case for being in the final stages than Verity) Why do you reckon Simon got rid of most of them? Who would've voted for most of them? Sharon and Louis would've wiped the floor with him



that better....?

Omideyi,

Could you edit that and put some paragraphs in? It's a bit tough to read in one whole chunk

Cheers

People get annoyed with the "X lost because of racism" crowd because they refuse to entertain the possibility that people made a simple choice (no different from any other choice) that had nothing to do with race.

Of course there could have been people who rejected VWS because they black, but I doubt that there were enough of them to matter.

If non-white acts get a rough ride in the UK because there is less demand for their music, then learn to deal with it. A lot of things I like are not very popular, so they rarely get lots of exposure too. However, I don't expect the world/media/whatever to reflect my interests, so I don't throw a hissy fit when it doesn't...

I fail to see how the obstacles that VWS face are any different from those that the other contestants face. The older contestants will have to deal with ageism, especially if most of the voters are young. The telegenic contestants will have to deal with hordes of jealous/insecure teens. The contestants specialising in particular styles (like the acapella quartet) will probably suffer too.

VWS don't have the right to be popular and have huge audiences; if their act doesn't have broad appeal, then they will just have to deal with it like every other niche act does (and their fate will have sod all to do with racism).

That's exactly the point! The majority power isn't with blacks it's with white people. No-one is saying that everything can be 'equal' either.

All people are saying is this....that race and racism MAY be a factor in voting because, like it or not, that is how our society (or whatever other society) is structured at the current time.

Why are we giving people a hard time for suggesting that racism exists and MAY affect people's choices in life? Why aren't people allowed to say this without attack?

People should say this without attack but let's make sure we all respect the other view too that someone might get voted out just for not being mainstream and conservative.

well if no ethnic people enter, there would be no acts at all.

That's the part I can't work out.

The best reason I can come up with is that people who vote for these contestants and people who buy music are two entirely different groups.

I'm proud to count myself among the latter category so I guess I'll be disappointed more often than not. It's a cross we have to bear.

Yes, it MAY be.. you are right.. there are people out there who don't like black, who don't like asians, who don't like the Irish/Spanish/Germans/French. Why is it if someone doesn't like a white person it doesn't matter.. but if someone doesn't like a black person it's racism?

I think the problem with this thread is the accusatory tone the original thread starter came on with and the arguments presented by that poster thereafter.

I'm bowing out of this one now I've said my piece

I agree with this, and to be clear, I haven't attacked anyone for this (if you think I have?).

All I have said...here she harps on again...is that I think it's unfair to bash people for bringing it up. There are plenty of people who have stated other reasons for VWS being bottom 2 and been fair about it; it's those who attack people who bring it up that I can't get over.

Dunno why those peeps get so angry...

I don't think that's reactionary at all. It looks a very fair question to me.
I wouldn't say it's a valid point in itself, but it's definitely a valid question.

I answered your question about Rowetta a page or two back, and others have also answered with their own suggestions.
Do we know how close Rowetta was to the bottom?

Regardless of that, race and prejudice can only be a factor if we're talking about the sheer volume of votes. Yes you're going to get some incredibly vicious racists, but I don't think that they would make up the majority of votes.

If race is just a factor, then maybe Rowetta has more pluses than minuses, and Voices with Soul had more negatives working against them.
Race being just one of them.

I agree that an awful lot of people don't consider colour as a factor.
But I also think that an awful lot of people unconsciously use it as a factor too.
I don't know how anyone could possibly measure that, but in my past experience as a white person, I've seen how subtle prejudice does affect some people.

I'm sticking my neck out here, and I don't know how true this is. But I get the feeling that Voices to Reason do kind of represent a cultural stereotype that some white people identify as a pure stereotype.
And by saying this, to some extent I am showing a level of prejudice. They do appear to give an image of the typical jolly, fat black lady, they sing gospelly type inspired soul.
Maybe it's as simple as that.
I think that Lilt advertisement with those two fat, black ladies did a lot of damage actually.

Wheras Rowetta may have something about her that has a broader appeal across races. Her broad Leeds accent may well take a slight edge off her blackness.

Ooh, I don't know how that comes across. If any black people are reading this, I just hope to god I don't sound bad and you understand what I mean.

Let's put it this way.... Is there anyone on this forum who GENUINELY believes that VWS based on talent/ability/potential/performance on the night should have ended up in the bottom 2?

maybe, maybe not, but not based on tonights performance - they did well

based on the past few weeks maybe

Fair points (if you're still there!).

The Scottish haters last year did my head in over MM and the anti-Irish remarks this year are also out of order.

The first time they came on.. I didn't think they were that great..... same as with G4... yet when the production team in their sound production sorted the clips out for the "highlights" of who sang what, BOTH groups were sounding much better.

I think from the reactions of people on the forums, and the reactions of the judges, it was pretty clear they were hearing something much better in the studio than we were hearing through the TV!

Secondly, I personally think Verity should have gone tonight. Unfortunately at the moment she has the sympathy vote. She didn't sound good on her first showing, and no amount of sound production seemed to improve her either.

No way - not at all. My post was meant to agree with you 100% but add on my two cents too. (Actually maybe that's not agreeing 100% but you get the idea )

Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!
Beautiful inside and out in all her lovely ethnicity...

Cool.

No, but I'll stick my neck out and say that in my opinion their performance belonged in the bottom four.

The Supremes are a tough act to match.

Oh! It's old PIV! Warming up to the northerners! Even us lovely Scots?

(Watch it.... )

You'll always dispute that racism is not a significant factor in music reality shows?

Why?

What if somebody came up with a very compelling argument to the contrary?
You would still refuse to be open minded?

MTV is not a music reality show.....it's MTV.
Lots of different factors there to take into consideration.

When it comes to music your point doesn't suggest anything, MTV's audience is not the same as the audience for "The XFactor". It's not that relevant.

Just cause they didnt end up in the bottom 2 due to bad performance doesn't mean it was race related.
There's all sorts of reasons people vote the way they do.

and, while we're on the subject, why is the gospel style of singing looked down upon by so many. over the years countless people form mariah carey and whitney all the way down have been criticised for "warbling," "oversinging," "shouting," etc?

maybe I'm biased, as I'm a gospel singer, but I've sung with all the members of VWS at the Hackney Empire in a gospel musical based on Faust and they are all fantastic vocallists, Hildia especially. She was the lead and she had done other stage stuff before, as well as backing vocals for several acts. I personally put them a close 2nd behind Rowetta