[manickangaroo]

Just been reading about this. The train accelerated going through the station, when it should have been slowing down, and hit the wall at the end of he tunnel as it was a dead end.
No-one knows why the driver failed to stop. Could have been suicide or a sudden medical or mental condition. I've even read that it was rumoured that when firemen reached him after a couple of days, his trousers were undone and he had hs hand round his penis. So was he doing something and took his mind off his job?

I feel sorry for his relatives as most people thought he'd committed suicide and took the lives of others.

http://unitedcats.wordpress.com/2008...deconstructed/

[blueblade]

Originally Posted by manickangaroo

Just been reading about this. The train accelerated going through the station, when it should have been slowing down, and hit the wall at the end of he tunnel as it was a dead end.
No-one knows why the driver failed to stop. Could have been suicide or a sudden medical or mental condition. I've even read that it was rumoured that when firemen reached him after a couple of days, his trousers were undone and he had hs hand round his penis. So was he doing something and took his mind off his job?

I feel sorry for his relatives as most people thought he'd committed suicide and took the lives of others.

http://unitedcats.wordpress.com/2008...deconstructed/

That's most likely total tripe.

It was either suicide or some sort of seizure IMO, probably the latter.

[BromleyBloke]

Originally Posted by manickangaroo

Just been reading about this. The train accelerated going through the station, when it should have been slowing down, and hit the wall at the end of he tunnel as it was a dead end.
No-one knows why the driver failed to stop. Could have been suicide or a sudden medical or mental condition. I've even read that it was rumoured that when firemen reached him after a couple of days, his trousers were undone and he had hs hand round his penis. So was he doing something and took his mind off his job?

I feel sorry for his relatives as most people thought he'd committed suicide and took the lives of others.

http://unitedcats.wordpress.com/2008...deconstructed/

How much of the driver do you think would would be left after driving a tube train at full speed into a Greathead Shield (the dead end)

[grauniad]

They got him out, gave him a couple of Anadin, and he confessed.
Truth is he would have been mashed to a pulp.

[psychedelic]

I don't think it was suicide. He had drawn out the money to buy a car for his daughter, that doesn't sound like the action of a suicidal man.

[ncr1969]

Originally Posted by manickangaroo

Just been reading about this. The train accelerated going through the station, when it should have been slowing down, and hit the wall at the end of he tunnel as it was a dead end.
No-one knows why the driver failed to stop. Could have been suicide or a sudden medical or mental condition. I've even read that it was rumoured that when firemen reached him after a couple of days, his trousers were undone and he had hs hand round his penis. So was he doing something and took his mind off his job?

I feel sorry for his relatives as most people thought he'd committed suicide and took the lives of others.

http://unitedcats.wordpress.com/2008...deconstructed/

Kindly stick to things you know something about, show some srespect and please don't recycle offensive tripe.

41 people died when the first three carriages were squashed into a space almost one third of the length. Over 80 people were injured.

All had families, including the Driver.

He was not having a jolly!

- Disgusted Rail Man

[Splot]

I was reading about this last night in the epic unsolved mysteries thread.

There was a suggestion the driver suffered from 'transient global amnesia' which, from what I understand, is a temporary condition where you lose your memory - other than your name and what has happened in the past couple of minutes.

It's believed that would would have rendered him unable to stop the train.

How awful it must have been for his family knowing they would never know what actually happened - not forgetting the families of all the other victims too. It put me in mind of recent events with the mother and daughter who were found in the Greenock hotel.

[bryemycaz]

When the train arrived he was seen to be staring straight ahead.

[CrazyLoop]

Originally Posted by psychedelic

I don't think it was suicide. He had drawn out the money to buy a car for his daughter, that doesn't sound like the action of a suicidal man.

Knew someone would said this. People CAN act like they're going about their normal daily life right before committing suicide you know? It's not often they will display signs of what they're planning to do until they're doing it. Which is why so many people who are suicidal don't get help to them. Plus this occurred at a time when people couldn't just easily go to their GP & ask for help with their mental health

[psychedelic]

Originally Posted by CrazyLoop

Knew someone would said this. People CAN act like they're going about their normal daily life right before committing suicide you know? It's not often they will display signs of what they're planning to do until they're doing it. Which is why so many people who are suicidal don't get help to them. Plus this occurred at a time when people couldn't just easily go to their GP & ask for help with their mental health

The accident upset me so much that I read the papers so carefully. I am convinced that he was not depressed, he had much to look forward to. Why would a GP not be able to help if he were depressed? It was not that long ago

[lemoncurd]

Originally Posted by psychedelic

The accident upset me so much that I read the papers so carefully. I am convinced that he was not depressed, he had much to look forward to. Why would a GP not be able to help if he were depressed? It was not that long ago

Because people didn't "own up" to being depressed in the 70s. It was seen as a personal weakness, not a health issue.

[el1aine]

not so long ago I saw a documentary about the incident which gave far more information than most of us knew at the time. I don't mind saying I wish I hadn't seen it. One man (I think a fireman) said he tried to open a carriage, stared down and saw all the people piled together, obviously unable to breathe or move and dying. He spoke of seeing their eyes just looking at him. I have to say I had bad dreams that night. I can't help thinking that the driver (sorry to have to say it) would have been crushed. BromleyBloke is right.

[ncr1969]

Originally Posted by BromleyBloke

How much of the driver do you think would would be left after driving a tube train at full speed into a Greathead Shield (the dead end)

Enough to reconstruct his hand positioning in relation to the controls at point of impact.

I will also add it did not take "a few days" to reach the Driver. Contact was actually reached relatively quickly. However his body was not moved for another four days.

The train was also not travelling at full speed - 35 mph is sufficient enough to cause the sickening carnage that resulted.

[CrazyLoop]

Originally Posted by lemoncurd

Because people didn't "own up" to being depressed in the 70s. It was seen as a personal weakness, not a health issue.

This is what I was going to say when I saw my question

My Dad & his partner have told me about how I'm so lucky to be able to discuss these things (such as upsets/mental health/etc) as things were different when they were my age in the 70s

[lesleyanne]

I remember when this happened very well. I was ten at the time, and the train that crashed had collected passengers at our local station before hearing down to Moorgate. I remember one of my teachers telling us that her husband had been on the train, although thankfully in a rear carriage and unhurt.

It really affected me at the time, I found it really upsetting and scary.

[bryemycaz]

Originally Posted by el1aine

not so long ago I saw a documentary about the incident which gave far more information than most of us knew at the time. I don't mind saying I wish I hadn't seen it. One man (I think a fireman) said he tried to open a carriage, stared down and saw all the people piled together, obviously unable to breathe or move and dying. He spoke of seeing their eyes just looking at him. I have to say I had bad dreams that night. I can't help thinking that the driver (sorry to have to say it) would have been crushed. BromleyBloke is right.

Was this the one that the "birds of a feather" writer Laurence Marks did. As his father was killed in the crash.

[manickangaroo]

Originally Posted by ncr1969

Kindly stick to things you know something about, show some srespect and please don't recycle offensive tripe.

41 people died when the first three carriages were squashed into a space almost one third of the length. Over 80 people were injured.

All had families, including the Driver.

He was not having a jolly!

- Disgusted Rail Man

Excuse me but I do know quite a lot about it as I've read a lot over the years. Have you read the article and particularly the comments underneath?

[manickangaroo]

Originally Posted by psychedelic

The accident upset me so much that I read the papers so carefully. I am convinced that he was not depressed, he had much to look forward to. Why would a GP not be able to help if he were depressed? It was not that long ago

There's also speculation that the train was faulty and should never have been taken out that morning, but all this was covered up by the authorities and blame pinned on the driver.

[Splot]

Here is the article that Laurence Marks wrote. I must say I don't really see how the evidence points to suicide. There are physical theories that can't be ruled out.

Plus, he points out that the driver had not put his hand up to protect his face. This is a reflex action that I imagine someone committing suicide would do involuntarily.

As to him not having any friends, some people choose not to.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...assengers.html

[ncr1969]

[quote=manickangaroo;65923339]Excuse me but I do know quite a lot about it as I've read a lot over the years. [quote]

Great, glad to hear you're interested but try working on the railway son before you claim anything approaching an applied grasp of the issues. Even then I'd strongly advise to keep an open mind.

No one can ever say 100%, but I really do think you guys would be better off looking outside of suicide as a cause.

I'm not going to risk my job revealing too much - not that I favour cover ups either but Id have to get into the tech side more than I'm comfortable with. No matter - there are enough retired guys out there who've posted some pretty good info over the years.

Suffice to say there are a lot of things wrong with the manner in which the inquiry was carried out. No one does know for sure even now - so there are no secrets as such - we'd be better off with a new open inquiry.

No conspiracy theories either - the truth is rather more mundane and tells a tale of what the railways were like in 75 How the Unions as much as LU were, as industry experts perhaps unwilling to dig deep enough out of arrogance, and fear that that in the Union case it might reflect badly on members.

I'd start looking at the train again if I were you - and the working culture. There's likely as not a number of factors that combined. Least that's the popular theory of myself and many of those I work with. None of us hold all the info though. I do hope you enjoy learning more and hopefully gain a fuller understanding of the technical issues of the rolling stock, the practices of putting trains in, and withdrawing from service at that time, and the working mentality in an environment where H&S was not as stringent and because we hadn't had a fatality to shake us all up then....

[ncr1969]

Originally Posted by manickangaroo

There's also speculation that the train was faulty and should never have been taken out that morning, but all this was covered up by the authorities and blame pinned on the driver.

Not exactly, but you're on the right track. For cover up and blame pinning read arrogance as those in charge didn't necessarily know what was going on in reality regards daily practices. Also don't discount a reluctance for individuals to contribute full knowledge in a culture very different from today in some respects

Individuals who feel they may have possibly contributed don't often lie as such, when put on the spot they give selected info about what they did on the day. They may not even appreciate consequences of actions as they cant see the bigger picture.

Perhaps investigators didn't probe hard enough and ask the right questions "three different ways"..

[manickangaroo]

I have been looking at other causes and actually don't think it was suicide. I do think it was something to do with the train not being fit for travel that day, some men not turning up for work and others substituting them. etc. Also, from what I've read, didn't the driver have an argument with the guard, who may have done something to get revenge?

[manickangaroo]

Yes I am keeping an open mind. As I said, it's sad that his relatives have had to endure mostly the suicide theory for almost 40 years now when that wasn't by any means proved.

Sorry, quotes messing up for me here today.

[lemoncurd]

Originally Posted by manickangaroo

I have been looking at other causes and actually don't think it was suicide. I do think it was something to do with the train not being fit for travel that day, some men not turning up for work and others substituting them. etc. Also, from what I've read, didn't the driver have an argument with the guard, who may have done something to get revenge?

I've heard several different stories, including that the guard had gone into the rear cab where he could have disabled the brakes (though I doubt this was possible even on 1938 stock).
I'm not sure if the investigation fully concluded whether Newson did indeed pick up a train that had been held at one station because the previous driver had reported faulty brakes, or whether that was just hearsay.

[manickangaroo]

Originally Posted by lemoncurd

I've heard several different stories, including that the guard had gone into the rear cab where he could have disabled the brakes (though I doubt this was possible even on 1938 stock).
I'm not sure if the investigation fully concluded whether Newson did indeed pick up a train that had been held at one station because the previous driver had reported faulty brakes, or whether that was just hearsay.

There was a lot of swapping around of drivers and guards that morning as several men hadn't turned up for work so they were short staffed. I don't think Newson was driving the train he should have been doing that day, but filled in for another driver. He was doing guard duties I read, but swapped to driver, just before the last fateful run.