Showing a tub of lard melting for an hour before X Factor could get half decent ratings.

Just because it rated better than other new entertainment shows doesnt make its performance relatively better. It probabaly had a budget four or five times all those other shows.

air point, you do have to consider the "£ per viewer" rate, when you make these decisions.

Im assuming its going to have its budget cut, and that will force a "creative renewal".

I might use that in real life sometime "yeah I know this shirt looks a bit cheap, but its part of a creative renewal process"

Indeed, and its budget will be cut as a consequence, make no mistake. But I still stand by the point that with the right retooling it could be a good show.

Relative to ITV's other entertainment shows it has far more potential than the relentlessly tacky Sing If You Can or the hopeless Born To Shine.

£ per viewers is a good way of putting it Charnham.

You cant really say a show that got 5m viewers with a cost of £10m performed better than a show that got 4m viewers and cost £2m. Its all relative.


I dont disagree that it could be turned into a half decent show and will get respectable ratings in the slot that has been rumoured. However, it just seems like an awful lot of kerfuffle when axing it and finding a better format for Ant and Dec to present a gameshow would be far easier and cheaper.

Difference is The Voice is a proven format that does work and has been a big hit internationally. But I think people should lower their expectations if they think it'll be a mega-hit like The X Factor - although stranger things have happened...

TBH I dont know if I agree with that, we have already seen Red or Back? done on the cheap it was called "Heads or Tails?" and it flopped for Five (sorry Dancc) im not sure whats going to change, besides loosing the big stunts that is the only thing that made it different, and disguise the fact RoB? was just HoT?

Well I would have thought the retooling would be more than just reducing the budget. If that were the case then I would agree that it would be pointless. Hopefully the format is refined - I think there should be more skill attached to progressing in the game.

where is the skill in picking red of black? unless there is a way a more intelligent person could work out which is more likely to be chosen.

Well the 'red or black' could be used in different ways - I do think just picking red or black umpteen times is where the format fell down somewhat. They could keep the final round as it is but the progression rounds could certainly be altered.

Again I don't think they'd bring it back exactly as it was but I don't know what they will do with it. We shall wait and see.

When was the last time a flop Saturday night show in the first series ended up becoming a hit? Itd have been a better idea giving Ant and Dec a new show which is not tainted by a poor reputation and critically maulled, rather than bringing back a series which was ridiculed so much. Lots of people who dipped into the first series arent going to give the 2nd series a chance after such a bad experience last year, even if theres a different format.

but doesnt that make it even more pointless, if two contestants have shown (gameshow style skills) to get to the final, only to have their fate decided by (little more than a) coin toss, that is even more wrong.

Crystal Maze didnt end with them throwing the crystal into either basket A or basket B, to find out which one had the prize money.

edit: in fact come to think of it, ITV might as well just bring back Crystal Maze.

Yes but new formats are thin on the ground. It's not that easy to magic a new show for Ant and Dec out of the air.

Although I do agree with Brekkie's suggestion that bringing back Pokerface would be preferable, but I think that ship has very much sailed.

Well I'm not a TV producer Charnham so I'll leave it to them to decide how they wish to iron out the format. Maybe they can hire you as an advisor.

as if I would ever work for Syco

but seriously, we are having a discussion on the merit of a game show where everything is 50/50 chance, and you suggest putting some skill games into the format, but keeping the 50/50 at the end. I think that the idea only highlights how pointless the 50/50 Red or Black? idea is.

I dont think that is unreasonable.

However should there be any up and coming production companys, in need of some new fresh thinking, PM me and we can discuss terms.

Well I was just playing devil's advocate. It may be enough just to tighten the show up, dispense with the all the filler VTs and have it air weekly.

for what its worth I do agree that airing it weekly is a good move. It needs to find its game show routes, and be less of event TV, like ITV tried to pass it off as before.

They also need to use Ant and Dec more, even if you end up a bit too much "Team Ant vs Team Dec", maybe having two challenges, which contestants have to do, but which they do is picked, red or black (in some fashion)

Its worth noting that every other TV network in the world has passed on Red or Black? (by not picking it up the format locally) its only ITV who is using it.

It's getting that slot mainly because that's where ITV put these gameshow formats - Family Fortunes, All Star Mr and Mrs, The Cube, The Whole 19 Yards, Holding Out For A Hero... It's not a particularly privileged position. If they stick with a separate "results show" then it gets the slot usually held by Piers Morgan's Life Stories.

I guess you've got to bring something back and Red or Black was the best that ITV had last year. I can see why they'd think it might work on a Saturday night. I think they're probably wrong.

It's possible that they've retooled the format but I can't see how they'll do it. It's fundamentally flawed, IMO. It's not the lack of skill, Deal or No Deal shows you don't need that. But you do need some kind of decision to be made by the contestant or some element of jeopardy. At no point have they won anything and the only decision they make is "red or black" and sometimes they don't even get to do that. It's like gambling without any risk. There's no tension. There's no point where the viewer at home thinks "oh, I wouldn't have done that", or "that's risky". In fact, the contestants were utterly irrelevant to the whole process. Which was in itself an even more significant issue because of the way they tried to make it contestant driven like the talent shows.

I think a lot of people (myself included) figured that there had ot be something to it... but in the end there wasn't. It really was that simple.


The latter was inevitable from the start. ITV seemed to think that because it was from Syco it was surely just like BGT. As I've said before, it screams of a gameshow format being developed, commissioned, scheduled and produced by people who usually do live Saturday night entertainment.

If it was ever to work then it was going to be in a weekly slot - certainly not split up around a 9pm Corrie. Nobody pays me to make those observations but I saw that one coming (and so did many others on here!). I think it was probably blindingly obvious to everyone that wasn't involved in making the decision (not least because it hasn't even done BGT any favours). It's often said (and I often agree) that it's an awful lot easier to sit at home and say "I could do your job better than you" but Elaine Beddell is the rare case of someone where that is actually true simply because it'd be virtually impossible to actually do any worse!


There's probably more chance of Celebrity Duets or a UK version of American Inventor being a hit!

I don't think they have to bring back Red or Black for that reason anyway. If Syco don't have any original formats worth buying there's nothing to stop them doing an international format or maybe some kind of revival.

I'd also consider that this was meant to be a big deal for ITV Studios. Which adds another factor to it all.

Disagree. There's currently a wealth of new formats out there that ITV could buy in and probably at a cheaper price than even a retooled Red or Black. I think the issue here is that ITV Studios don't own a stake in any of those shows and so there's less incentive to make them work or do anything with them. In this thread alone we've mentioned the likes of Who's Still Standing and Million Dollar Mind Game which are great formats and could work incredibly well on prime time Saturday night. Its just that no one in the UK is buying them.


Its a shame/relief that BBC1 already aired a version of Celebrity Duets otherwise I'm sure ITV would be all over that format by now.

To be completely honest I think the big issue with bringing Red or Black back that people are perhaps overlooking is the potential impact another run of this show has on Ant & Dec. They haven't been involved in a proper hit or even popular format for a long time now and ITV (along with Ant & Dec themselves) seem to be banking on the return of Saturday Night Takeaway early next year to really turn things around. But if they alienate viewers further with another run of another dire show how much power is left in the return of Ant & Dec's Saturday Night Takeaway?

Although having said that have Ant & Dec been confirmed as hosting a potential second series? If its scheduled around The X Factor won't that interfere with their I'm A Celeb... commitments? That usually starts the second week of November doesn't it (or at least I think it did last year)? So that would maybe mean 6 episodes of Red or Black starting from the first weekend of August and then run directly into the launch of I'm A Celebrity the week after Red or Black ends...

Just read that ITV Studios America is developing a remake of Space 1999 called Space 2099. Will be interesting if it goes ahead, it's one of the better known live action Gerry Anderson shows, given the success of Doctor Who and Merlin, it is a surprise that ITV1 has not attempted to do The Avengers or Thunderbirds although Thunderbirds would have to be either live action/CGI or fully CGI and have co-production money.

Red or Black bombed and deservedly so. It will not return and be successful.

I fully support the revival of Space 1999 (in some form)

I'll be surprised if Who's Still Standing doesn't end up here, tbh. I watched one of the episodes recently and I think it's the best primetime quiz show I've seen in a long time. The format itself seems fairly unremarkable on paper and I was kind of sceptical with the whole "drop" thing.

But a lot of it is in the production. I know they were doing them with a Christmas theme which probably helped (I haven't seen any others) but it has a primetime feel to it. It was tense in points but mainly upbeat, had a fun host, the use of music was excellent, the set was bright and spacious, the letters on the screen help with the "play along at home" element that is so important for these shows. Some of these shows can be a bit overdone these days - lots of very dark blue lighting, too much of an emphasis on making it tense, similar background music, dull hosts.

A lot of people would hate it for being loud, brash and "character" driven but if there's a gameshow format suited to airing primetime on Saturday nights, I think this is probably it.

AFAIK there's no global distribution deal for it - Craig Plestis produced it in the US under his deal at NBCU. So that leaves the door open for ITV Studios to produce a UK version or another UK indie to come in. In fact, if I were an agent with a "cheeky" kind of host on my books (whether that be Ant & Dec or Paddy McGuiness or anyone else), I'd be trying to get this project set up in the UK for them.

Million Dollar Mind Game is a decent show as well but I'm not sure it's something that would fit in on ITV1 weekends just now. Could see it being hosted by Victoria Coren for BBC2! It's the polar opposite to Who's Still Standing but it's fascinating. I'm seriously awful at it but there's always that moment when the team work it out and you think "oh yeah, that's it, so obvious!".


They tried - both Just The Two of Us and Celebrity Duets were in development at the same time. The BBC got their version out first here but Syco managed to get it on in the US before BBC WW.

Of course, we got Soapstar Superstar instead. Which was actually successful until the whole phone scandal and usually beat Just The Two of Us, IIRC. That was back in 2006/2007 when we had 3 stripped reality shows on BBC1/ITV1/C4 in early January!

It'll be interesting how Homeland does on Channel 4 especially as it faces Upstairs Downstairs, I did think it would air at 10pm on a weekday rather than Sunday which is when Channel 4 shows films, it should debut well but whether it can sustain it over 12 weeks remains to be seen.

ITV1 is bringing back a revamped Surprise Surprise in the autumn with Holly Willoughby presenting, according to The Sun.We can never accuse ITV of originality can we ?

They're re-naming it Predictable, Predictable