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2 cats killed on road outside our house in 7 months, just unlucky??? |
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#26 |
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I think that's the best thing to do Heggie.
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#27 |
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You all keep missing the point and trying to justify it all with worn-out excuses. You dont know anything about wildlife and nature. Also i am not a `cat hater` and calling me that is just one example of how you are all missing the point. Have i said any time that i am a cat hater?
I think for one last time i will correct you all as clearly as i can in the hope that you may understand..... |
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#28 |
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Missjef, It is true unfortunately they dont always work and it is usually a misconception among people that bells will save birds from cats
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#29 |
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http://www.messybeast.com/cat-wildlife.htm
I'm not sure if this link works but it's a report counterbalancing the many reports from wildlife groups on cats' effects on nature's 'natural balance'. The author refers to cats as ''convenient scapegoats'' and that the statistics extrapolated from various studies are flawed and dubious, ''a small sample can be carefully selected to give you any result you want in order to prove whatever it is you want to prove''. Scaled up figures are ''alarmist'' yet taken at face value by those who have little understanding of cat behaviour. Such reports deflate attention away from the more devastating effect of humans on wildlife. Gardening methods, buildings, bypasses, pollution of rivers, filling in ditches and removing hedges all have a much more profound effect on wildlife than the predatory behaviours of some cats. The murderous activities of cats pales into ''insignificance'' when compared to those of humans. People believe what they want to believe, particularly if they have an anti cat agenda. I prefer my cats to behave as nature intended so I will continue to let them out, as they choose (currently all snuggled up together, safe and warm inside) but my current cats aren't even hunters so I have nothing to feel guilty about anyway.
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#30 |
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You all keep missing the point and trying to justify it all with worn-out excuses. You dont know anything about wildlife and nature.
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#31 |
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Some of you are twisting my words and doing all you can to justify your careless and selfish actions. You knowingly allow your domestic cats to go out and catch and torture wildlife, but yet when someone criticises you for it you cant cope with that, oh no, and do all you can to try and weasel out of it by coming out with excuses and twisting my words
If there is any sort of `brigade` it is you lot who try to stamp on the words of those who have a bit of respect for wildlife and other people, even calling me a cat hater because i dislike the careless actions of letting a cat out to roam and harm wildlife. I dont hate cats, but i hate the careless actions of a bunch of selfish people who dont give a dam about anything but themselves |
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#32 |
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Yep...I let my cat out to torture and kill whatever wild life he can find or catch. Its called 'letting him be a cat'.
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#33 |
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Some of you are twisting my words and doing all you can to justify your careless and selfish actions. You knowingly allow your domestic cats to go out and catch and torture wildlife, but yet when someone criticises you for it you cant cope with that, oh no, and do all you can to try and weasel out of it by coming out with excuses and twisting my words
If there is any sort of `brigade` it is you lot who try to stamp on the words of those who have a bit of respect for wildlife and other people, even calling me a cat hater because i dislike the careless actions of letting a cat out to roam and harm wildlife. I dont hate cats, but i hate the careless actions of a bunch of selfish people who dont give a dam about anything but themselves (It's "damn", by the way, not the big concrete thing that holds water back. And I object strongly to the careless use of the word "weasel" in a negative context.) |
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#34 |
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Some of you are twisting my words and doing all you can to justify your careless and selfish actions. You knowingly allow your domestic cats to go out and catch and torture wildlife, but yet when someone criticises you for it you cant cope with that, oh no, and do all you can to try and weasel out of it by coming out with excuses and twisting my words
If there is any sort of `brigade` it is you lot who try to stamp on the words of those who have a bit of respect for wildlife and other people, even calling me a cat hater because i dislike the careless actions of letting a cat out to roam and harm wildlife. I dont hate cats, but i hate the careless actions of a bunch of selfish people who dont give a dam about anything but themselves You need to read through the link I posted. Many, many domestic cats do not hunt and I, personally, am pleased that my Tabitha was such a great hunter because she certainly kept down the mouse and rat population in the area where I lived. Most people don't like living with rats or mice unless they're the domestic pet kind. |
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#35 |
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Hi MarellaK,
The article misses some significant facts. You argue that its in a cats nature to hunt, but it is a bird of prey`s nature to hunt and yet some of them are persecuted, for simply trying to survive. This is where cats killing wildlife is unnatural, because unlike wild animals, domestic cats are fed and looked after by their owner, and can be bought toys to play with and given play time with the owner which will exercise theyre natural instincts without actually harming wild animals (have you heard of the light pointer game by some owners? for e.g) Susie, Yes, i am for real. Im sorry if my posts are too blunt, but i could have asked that question myself reading through some of the replies from others in this thread Marella, Cats are a real threat to wildlife, and a far greater threat than natural predators. I did read the article, i can only HOPE that those figures are overestimated but because of free-roaming cats convenient type of pet appeal and the ease in getting moggies their numbers are HIGH and we know that bells dont really work. mice are part of wildlife too and not all mice carry disease, and some are said to be rare or endangered, such as the hazel dormouse, the glis glis dormouse for e.g Some cat owners just un-willing to take steps to prevent their cats hunting catching wild creatures, which is sad. This thread is filled with the usual responses of such like `its in a cats nature` `its just cats being cats` but this is the same with many animals which are kept in a controlled envionment to stop them from harming our wildlife. In the USA in many states (and more to come) cats are having to be kept inside now by law, due to the harm they cause for wildlife and the health hazard and tensions from nuisance cats. Also in australia too and people are encouraged to keep their cats inside or build an enclosure. You mentioned about humans impact on wildlife, cat-predation is a problem caused by humans, as cats were and are introduced by humans, and are maintained by humans. Just because humans kill animals, does it make it acceptable to allow pets to do that too? Im also not `anti-cat,` im not a cat hater, i just dont agree with letting cats out to do whatever they please, letting a cat out to do what he wants because you feel its cruel to keep a cat indoors and think thats what he wants is no comfort at all to a bird who is on his third or fourth nesting attempt, or a parent bird who was out getting food for her chicks Allowing your own domestic pet to interfere with nature does not seem very in-tune with nature. Ive already explained several times earlier on in the thread in an clear way so i cant really do any more to try and show people that letting cats out to do what they please is not a good idea. I have a `benefitting both wildlife AND cats` attitude which i think is fair, and if i was a `cat hater` i would not have not have mentioned about keeping cats indoors for theyre own safety either. I also doubt i would have been laughing at the `cat printer` video if i was a cat-hater, too. I really found that funny ![]() I`ll leave this in an amicable way with you MarellaK despite whats been said. My aim was not to get in conflict with anyone, but to try and get people to see that letting cats out to harm wildlife is a bad idea, without taking any steps to prevent the unnecessary predation by cats. here is some links on cat predation and wildlife: http://wildlife.wisc.edu/extension/catfly3.htm http://www.mammal.org.uk/index.php?o...256&Itemid=289 http://journals.cambridge.org/action...ne&aid=7468236 |
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#36 |
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http://optimail.com.au/berrime/wildcats.htm
"Environmental groups and councils often call for the confinement of cats to prevent their predation on birds and other wildlife. Cats do kill birds and small wildlife species, but there has been a great deal of misinformation and propaganda about the true harm they cause. This debate has become so heated at times, fueled by a minority of vocal cat haters who often have the ear of government, that people have lost sight of the fact that it is humans themselves who are the real culprits. Massive, continually escalating, and largely irreversible damage to the environment by human activity (habitat destruction and global warming) is the main reason for the widescale disappearance of wildlife species. If given the opportunity, cats actually mainly prey on rodents and rabbits, the so-called pest species that humans have spent millions trying to control. " Maybe we should keep all humans locked inside their houses ? |
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#37 |
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Quote:
http://optimail.com.au/berrime/wildcats.htm
"Environmental groups and councils often call for the confinement of cats to prevent their predation on birds and other wildlife. Cats do kill birds and small wildlife species, but there has been a great deal of misinformation and propaganda about the true harm they cause. This debate has become so heated at times, fueled by a minority of vocal cat haters who often have the ear of government, that people have lost sight of the fact that it is humans themselves who are the real culprits. Massive, continually escalating, and largely irreversible damage to the environment by human activity (habitat destruction and global warming) is the main reason for the widescale disappearance of wildlife species. If given the opportunity, cats actually mainly prey on rodents and rabbits, the so-called pest species that humans have spent millions trying to control. " Maybe we should keep all humans locked inside their houses ? Its just so obvious that people cant admit that cat predation is a human caused problem. So yeah, end of topic i guess |
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#38 |
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just had a message from the digital spy police saying I have treated a user with no respect, 3 guesses for who that was (my guess is the user will comment again after this to have the last word) sadly this topic has gone way off what it was started for yet I get the warning, the digital spy police must be cat haters too!
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#39 |
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just had a message from the digital spy police saying I have treated a user with no respect, 3 guesses for who that was (my guess is the user will comment again after this to have the last word) sadly this topic has gone way off what it was started for yet I get the warning, the digital spy police must be cat haters too!
SCDChick, I respect the fact that you have your own opinion and believe very passionately in it but you must respect that a lot of us don't agree with you. I accept that cats are responsible for killing some birds and I'm sure that none of us likes that but most cats who hunt actually mainly kill rodents (borne out from my own experience of living with a hunting cat) which humans spend money and effort in trying to exterminate. I believe cats were introduced into domesticity, originally, because their predatory skills were so highly valued and they have been used for pest control in many settings, throughout history. You call us selfish for allowing our cats outside because of their threat to nature when all the facts point to the fact that humans are the real threat to nature.. My personal responsibility is to my cats to ensure their mental, social and physical well being and I have been instructed by the cat welfare group from which I adopted my cats that it is in their interests to allow them the freedom to explore outside. You say we should keep cats indoors to maintain their safety but my cats have had several mishaps/accidents inside the house. My Tabitha broke her leg when she fell off the TV, my Bernard got covered in paint when I was redecorating (cost me £200 for a night at the vets and a bath) and just the other day, my Lucy did exactly the same. House plants, cut flowers can all be toxic to cats. I accept that living on a busy road would necessitate keeping cats indoors (depending on the cat) but I have chosen to live in quiet areas so the risks are very low. You will continue to persist with your strident point of view and I'm sure you will want to have the last word, as usual. But if your post remains unanswered it's because people just can't be bothered to continue the argument. |
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#40 |
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But if your post remains unanswered it's because people just can't be bothered to continue the argument.
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#41 |
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Of course its humans who are the problem, we introduced the domestic cat and we maintain it Ferals and strays are former domestic cats. the wildcats are not domesticated.
Its just so obvious that people cant admit that cat predation is a human caused problem. So yeah, end of topic i guess ![]() I'm sure you do realise that domestic cats weren't "introduced", they evolved from the wild cat (as pet dogs evolved from wild dogs). It was a very long time ago, but some wild cats were less afraid of humans than others, and over the years they came to live close to them. The cats got a permanent home and food supply, and the humans got rid of rats and mice. Logic dictates that even if humans hadn't domesticated cats, there would probably be large packs of feral urban cats (probably with hoodies and a bad attitude) that would also be pillaging wildlife, probably more so because it would be their only food source. |
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#42 |
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Sometimes I wish cats could eat really big things. Just saying.
![]() I'm sure you do realise that domestic cats weren't "introduced", they evolved from the wild cat (as pet dogs evolved from wild dogs). It was a very long time ago, but some wild cats were less afraid of humans than others, and over the years they came to live close to them. The cats got a permanent home and food supply, and the humans got rid of rats and mice. Logic dictates that even if humans hadn't domesticated cats, there would probably be large packs of feral urban cats (probably with hoodies and a bad attitude) that would also be pillaging wildlife, probably more so because it would be their only food source. There are lots of feral cats out there (ie descended from domestic cats but now living wild) and they do indeed eat wild birds and mammals to survive (though some colonies are also fed by humans. They are subject to the same pressures as any wild predator - find enough to eat or die. They also experience the other hazards of a 'wild' and 'natural' life - no protection against the elements and their injuries and ailments going untreated. Domestic cats that go outside are a different story - they are fed and cared for and live to hunt another day whether or not they hunt successfully, so potentially can be a much more significant danger to wildlife. Cats are responsible (or rather the people that brought the cats are responsible) for the decline and even extinction of many species in various parts of the world, especially on smaller islands. However, in the UK most domestic cats operate in the already very unnatural habitats of built-up areas, where populations of birds and rodents may be at levels that would not be sustainable anyway without the presence of the humans. This factor should be taken into account when assessing their impact on wildlife. I do think it is wise to keep cats indoors between dawn and dusk - this is the time that they are most vulnerable themselves, as well as most likely to take wildlife. PS - I adore cats. I have a beautiful young rescue cat who can't go outside because she has a very serious congenital kidney disorder and has to eat a special diet - as long as she sticks to this she's OK. She has all the usual cat instincts to stalk, chase and pounce, and we use lots of varied play to keep her stimulated and happy. |
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#43 |
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Domestic cats that go outside are a different story - they are fed and cared for and live to hunt another day whether or not they hunt successfully, so potentially can be a much more significant danger to wildlife. Cats are responsible (or rather the people that brought the cats are responsible) for the decline and even extinction of many species in various parts of the world, especially on smaller islands.
However, in the UK most domestic cats operate in the already very unnatural habitats of built-up areas, where populations of birds and rodents may be at levels that would not be sustainable anyway without the presence of the humans. This factor should be taken into account when assessing their impact on wildlife. I do think it is wise to keep cats indoors between dawn and dusk - this is the time that they are most vulnerable themselves, as well as most likely to take wildlife. )I don't see your logic that domestic cats are potentially more of a threat than feral cats? Domestic cats may kill for fun but it's very ad hoc and a great many domestic cats don't hunt at all whereas feral cats may need to kill to keep alive,unless they live in a colony where humans feed them, so would kill on a much more regular basis. They may not live that long but feral cats breed (I know some areas have neutering programmes) so the numbers still multiply. My current cats don't hunt. My eldest is now nearly 7 so I don't think he will ever hunt now, he's a fat, lazy (but very lovable) cat. My Tabitha's hunting tailed off greatly after she reached the age of 10 and had stopped completely in the years before her death at 16. My 2 younger rescue cats are about 18 months old, if they should start hunting when the weather turns milder, then I will restrict their outdoor excursions and keep them confined between dusk and dawn. I don't really want live mice and birds in my house anyway (I loved my Tabitha but she caused me a lot of stress with her activities!). Letting cats outside isn't just about allowing them to 'hunt'. I'm sat at my kitchen table watching my little Lucy prance and hop around in the thick snow outside. She likes to climb trees too. And I don't need to worry about cleaning litter trays - though I keep one for emergency use. (I'm sure someone will now object to allowing cats to potentially foul other people's gardens I adored my Tabitha and I still feel very bereft without her but I know she lived her life to the full and I never saw her more happy, stimulated and excited than when she was outdoors or more miserable and stressed than when she was confined indoors. |
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#44 |
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Thankyou Aiki for your post
MarellaK, In your opinion mice and rats are vermin but not everyone thinks like that. Amongst those animals you label vermin are several species of field mice and dormice, including the hazel dormice, some of which are rare and endangered and dont have disease On your mention about your cats getting covered in paint an costing you lots in vet bills, using some common sense would have prevented that, keeping your cats away from that area or out of the room you were decorating in. When having pets inside the house you have to check for hazards, as you would with any pet inside a house You dont know that many domestic cats dont hunt, some owners claim `my beloved so and so doesnt hunt` but how would you know when the cat is free-roaming, you dont know what it gets up to all the time. Cats have a strong hunting instinct after all so to say many dont hunt, is it just wishful thinking..... There are many other consequences of letting a cat outdoors to roam gardens, of which wont matter to you, but one is considering the people who live around you. It seems to me now that you have issues against me, despite the fact that i stated some of the points that Aiki made, and the fact that i pressed that i am not a cat hater. Would you have had a different attitude towards me if i happened to be a cat-owner? |
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#45 |
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Also must add, there are indoor cat owners whose cats are happy and stimulated, keeping cats indoors does not mean they are going to be miserable and stressed. Cats can adapt and even former outdoor cats can be happy indoors eventually. I actually have friends who are owners of indoor cats and theyre cats are happy, healthy and content
I agree with Aiki and i believe that keeping cats in at certain times will make a huge difference. Its good that youre considering that
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#46 |
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Thankyou Aiki for your post
MarellaK, In your opinion mice and rats are vermin but not everyone thinks like that. Amongst those animals you label vermin are several species of field mice and dormice, including the hazel dormice, some of which are rare and endangered and dont have disease On your mention about your cats getting covered in paint an costing you lots in vet bills, using some common sense would have prevented that, keeping your cats away from that area or out of the room you were decorating in. When having pets inside the house you have to check for hazards, as you would with any pet inside a house You dont know that many domestic cats dont hunt, some owners claim `my beloved so and so doesnt hunt` but how would you know when the cat is free-roaming, you dont know what it gets up to all the time There are many other consequences of letting a cat outdoors to roam gardens, of which wont matter to you, but one is considering the people who live around you. It seems to me now that you have issues against me, despite the fact that i stated some of the points that Aiki made, and the fact that i pressed that i am not a cat hater. Would you have had a different attitude towards me if i happened to be a cat-owner? ![]() I don't live in an area with field mice or dormice so the mice I have been referring to have been vermin. As for my cats getting covered in paint, yes I did take the precaution of closing the door where I was decorating, but I did need to eventually open the door to exit myself and didn't know there was a cat waiting outside to satisfy her curiosity about what I had been up to. And she's very quick . Accidents happen, unfortunately, inside and outside the home. Cats get into all sorts of mischief because they are naturally curious.The other poster made some valid points, phrased in a more reasonable and conciliatory tone, and suggested a 'compromise' situation of keeping cats confined indoors during the periods when they and wildlife may be most at risk. I think the tone of some of your posts can come across as rather dictatorial and adversarial. I respect you have strong views on this subject but you need to respect our views too
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#47 |
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Also must add, there are indoor cat owners whose cats are happy and stimulated, keeping cats indoors does not mean they are going to be miserable and stressed. Cats can adapt and even former outdoor cats can be happy indoors eventually. I actually have friends who are owners of indoor cats and theyre cats are happy, healthy and content
I agree with Aiki and i believe that keeping cats in at certain times will make a huge difference. Its good that youre considering that ![]() I have 3 cats now and the eldest probably would adapt to being indoors only because he doesn't go out much anyway. It all depends on the cat. I am still grieving for my late Tabitha, I miss her so much, but I know she lived a very happy, fulfilled life and I am glad she always had the freedom to do what she wanted to do. |
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#48 |
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I think you make some reasonable and sensible points. I accept that outdoor domestic cats may be a real threat to wildlife in some parts of the world, many of the reports I uncovered when googling stem from Australia and America. I also agree it might be selfish to allow cats to roam free in those parts of the UK which house protected species of wildlife, particularly from dusk to dawn (I presume you didn't actually mean from dawn to dusk?). However, I don't believe that rats and mice are protected wildlife, rather they are considered unwanted vermin, and these constitute the prey of most hunting domestic cats. I lived with a hunting cat and she was probably responsible for the death of no more than 20 birds in her lifetime (many of them pigeons) whereas she killed hundreds of mice (and a couple of rats
)I don't see your logic that domestic cats are potentially more of a threat than feral cats? Domestic cats may kill for fun but it's very ad hoc and a great many domestic cats don't hunt at all whereas feral cats may need to kill to keep alive,unless they live in a colony where humans feed them, so would kill on a much more regular basis. They may not live that long but feral cats breed (I know some areas have neutering programmes) so the numbers still multiply. My current cats don't hunt. My eldest is now nearly 7 so I don't think he will ever hunt now, he's a fat, lazy (but very lovable) cat. My Tabitha's hunting tailed off greatly after she reached the age of 10 and had stopped completely in the years before her death at 16. My 2 younger rescue cats are about 18 months old, if they should start hunting when the weather turns milder, then I will restrict their outdoor excursions and keep them confined between dusk and dawn. I don't really want live mice and birds in my house anyway (I loved my Tabitha but she caused me a lot of stress with her activities!). Letting cats outside isn't just about allowing them to 'hunt'. I'm sat at my kitchen table watching my little Lucy prance and hop around in the thick snow outside. She likes to climb trees too. And I don't need to worry about cleaning litter trays - though I keep one for emergency use. (I'm sure someone will now object to allowing cats to potentially foul other people's gardens I adored my Tabitha and I still feel very bereft without her but I know she lived her life to the full and I never saw her more happy, stimulated and excited than when she was outdoors or more miserable and stressed than when she was confined indoors. I know many domestic cats don't hunt at all, and others only infrequently. However, there's a study out there somewhere on domestic cat predation whereby analysis of cat crap showed that not only do cats travel further than their owners realise, some regularly eat birds without their owners knowing about it. So just interviewing owners about how much their cats bring home is not necessarily going to give the full picture. http://www.carolfiore.com/Article.html Re the feral/domestic cat hunting scenario, I just mean that feral cats (that don't receive food from people but live exclusively on what they can catch) will be limited by prey numbers - not enough prey around, the feral cats will starve and numbers will fall, regardless of reproductive rate. This means less predation pressure on the prey species, making it easier for them to recover their numbers. It's the classic boom/bust cycling of predator/prey populations, best illustrated by looking at a predator that relies heavily on a single prey source, eg Snowy Owl and lemmings. Domestic cats get fed anyway so won't starve if prey availability falls, so they can in theory continue to pressure a prey population when prey numbers fall lower than the level required to support a wild predator. If domestic cats keep prey numbers low, this pressures wild predators as well as prey. Having said all that, IMHO in the UK domestic cat predation is not as serious a danger to wildlife as it's sometimes made out to be. The danger to the cats themselves from the roads and also cat-unfriendly people is another matter, and in some areas letting cats roam is genuinely really risky, while in others pretty much completely safe. My sister lives on a quite busy road and has lost two young cats to road accidents, devastatingly upsetting for her and her family and they are not getting any more cats now. I feel pretty conflicted about it all, as it's obvious most cats enjoy being outside. |
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#49 |
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I did mean from dusk to dawn - thank you!
I know many domestic cats don't hunt at all, and others only infrequently. However, there's a study out there somewhere on domestic cat predation whereby analysis of cat crap showed that not only do cats travel further than their owners realise, some regularly eat birds without their owners knowing about it. So just interviewing owners about how much their cats bring home is not necessarily going to give the full picture. http://www.carolfiore.com/Article.html Re the feral/domestic cat hunting scenario, I just mean that feral cats (that don't receive food from people but live exclusively on what they can catch) will be limited by prey numbers - not enough prey around, the feral cats will starve and numbers will fall, regardless of reproductive rate. This means less predation pressure on the prey species, making it easier for them to recover their numbers. It's the classic boom/bust cycling of predator/prey populations, best illustrated by looking at a predator that relies heavily on a single prey source, eg Snowy Owl and lemmings. Domestic cats get fed anyway so won't starve if prey availability falls, so they can in theory continue to pressure a prey population when prey numbers fall lower than the level required to support a wild predator. If domestic cats keep prey numbers low, this pressures wild predators as well as prey. Having said all that, IMHO in the UK domestic cat predation is not as serious a danger to wildlife as it's sometimes made out to be. The danger to the cats themselves from the roads and also cat-unfriendly people is another matter, and in some areas letting cats roam is genuinely really risky, while in others pretty much completely safe. My sister lives on a quite busy road and has lost two young cats to road accidents, devastatingly upsetting for her and her family and they are not getting any more cats now. I feel pretty conflicted about it all, as it's obvious most cats enjoy being outside. ) to keep the cats indoors - for their own protection rather than to protect wildlife. I've never had to do that because my cats all sleep inside at night anyway (even my late Tabitha) and I live on a road with little to no traffic.Thank you for your contributions to this thread. You've made some interesting points
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#50 |
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as many of you know i have two indoor cats both breeds are not recommended to go outside due to the nature of the breed koppa is a ragdoll and dotty is a ragamuffin due to the breed guidelines the pet insurance won't cover them outside anyway they are both quite happy indoors and if anyone knocks the door they run off to the bedroom but are quite friendly when people come in so they are not timid just fond of their indoor life their is a huge dog walking area to the rear of the property also so given their natures it is ideal for them to be indoor cats.
i don't think all cats should be kept in as far as i can see its personal preference my next door neighbours eldest one is a natural hunter but has always gone out if i was in the OP'S position i would however reconsider a breed or cat that doesn't go out |
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