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Old 18-02-2012, 19:20
Bundyman
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I see. Don't believe anything that happens to detract from your argument.

Well let me tell you, during part of the 1980s, Trent was almost certainly heavily subsidising Leicester Sound, and during the 1990s it was propping up large parts of the GWR network, as was 210. Even in the nostalgic good old days, it was pretty obvious that Saxon relied on Orwell, and latterly that Borders required the support of Forth.

Come on. One small town in Kent supporting its own radio station in the 2012 landscape? Really? Even places the size of Reading and Lincoln can no longer support a daily newspaper.

Look, I don't like the harsh realities of business any more than you do. In the mid 1990s I led a considerable lobby against the introduction of news hubs.

But you cannot go on living in the past and still have a credible argument. Not least when you refuse to supply a viable alternative other than 'crap regulator' and 'frequency audit'.
I'm well aware of the view that in 2012 the ONLY commercial radio that is viable is networked jukeboxes, i don't believe that to be true.

Big groups who want to network the crap out of everything & be semi-national have lots to gain by keep repeating this & trying to achieve it & sure some will buy into it and believe it.The proof of that is on here.

Small stations are struggling because of the recession & Ofcoms cave in to the larger groups, but seriously, the bigger stations can make cash if it's done properly.
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Old 18-02-2012, 19:37
latet8
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what do peolple think the new schedile will be? its about time the dab service was the same as the fm service that would save some money they could be 24/7 live then
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Old 18-02-2012, 19:43
Station ID
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I'm well aware of the view that in 2012 the ONLY commercial radio that is viable is networked jukeboxes, i don't believe that to be true.
Many people agree with you and many people including radio groups have tried to prove this to be the case, the trouble is no one has. One very wealthy group invested a fortune trying to prove that old school radio without a tight playlist and personaly presenters, who were live was better than what we have now. They decided to cut their losses and sold their station to a company who tightened the playlists, shut the presenters up and significantly increased the audience figures in the process. I believe you've heard of Canwest.

Talk 107 was another example of commercial radio doing something different and that ended in a simmilar fate only because of the licence no one wanted to buy it because it didn't make any money.

Apart from in remote areas where the amount of competition is greatly reduced and the needs of the audience are closer to those of the "old" days. The old style of radio is not viable in 2012.

Look at the amount of radio stations on air today, listeners have so much more choice and yet the overall number of radio listeners in the country has not significantly increased. Add to that the fact that advertisers have less money to spend and I can't see how the old model can work in 2012.
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Old 18-02-2012, 20:12
hanssolo
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its about time the dab service was the same as the fm service that would save some money they could be 24/7 live then
http://radiotoday.co.uk/2012/02/kmfm...breakfast-show
Kmfm radio is running at a loss these changes will help reverse that.
Kmfm could probably join Rajar as a larger single station and get more advertising revenue!
There is no mention of changes to Kmfm extra, it's fate may depend on if enough advertising is coming in to sustain it as a separate station
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Old 18-02-2012, 20:37
Peace100
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Many people agree with you and many people including radio groups have tried to prove this to be the case, the trouble is no one has. One very wealthy group invested a fortune trying to prove that old school radio without a tight playlist and personaly presenters, who were live was better than what we have now. They decided to cut their losses and sold their station to a company who tightened the playlists, shut the presenters up and significantly increased the audience figures in the process. I believe you've heard of Canwest.

Talk 107 was another example of commercial radio doing something different and that ended in a simmilar fate only because of the licence no one wanted to buy it because it didn't make any money.

Apart from in remote areas where the amount of competition is greatly reduced and the needs of the audience are closer to those of the "old" days. The old style of radio is not viable in 2012.

Look at the amount of radio stations on air today, listeners have so much more choice and yet the overall number of radio listeners in the country has not significantly increased. Add to that the fact that advertisers have less money to spend and I can't see how the old model can work in 2012.
Also the then called "Sallie" and many other local licences that were advertised are far too small to be economically viable. It would have been far better if there had been a larger number of more regional sized stations than the tinpot sized tsas/power, I take Town 102 (local to me), far too small...thats the situation in Kent with KMFM, 7 stations in the county which was crazy...leave these small stations to be community stations, not commercial operations.
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Old 18-02-2012, 21:58
Ridgieman
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what do peolple think the new schedile will be? its about time the dab service was the same as the fm service that would save some money they could be 24/7 live then
I just hope it includes Chris Oxlade as he has been covering shows for them these last few weeks, his first gig back on the radio since Mercury Fm closed down.
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Old 18-02-2012, 22:29
krob2
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Also the then called "Sallie" and many other local licences that were advertised are far too small to be economically viable. It would have been far better if there had been a larger number of more regional sized stations than the tinpot sized tsas/power, I take Town 102 (local to me), far too small...thats the situation in Kent with KMFM, 7 stations in the county which was crazy...leave these small stations to be community stations, not commercial operations.
Best post on here... Problem is rooted in over licencing and then allowing licence drift.. Around here Centre Fm a Sallie for Tamworth/Burton/Lichfield started sounding great - a proper radio station but its been a slippery slope to what we have today - a largely automated and networked jukebox. Other problem I agree with Bundy is the drift to the middle ground of specialist regional stations licenced to provide choice - like Saga to Smooth, Heart into Chart stuff, Choice into Galaxy into Capital.

Personally for me commercial radio in the Midlands is at an end - only listen to the BBC and my internet radio. You would think major cities like Derby,Nottingham & Leicester could support a commercial radio service but in 2012 possibly not! Mapperley also probably has it right in saying the advertisers are using other medium (especially the local ones) which just leaves a few national advertisers to annoy us like "Go Compare" and "We buy any car"
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Old 18-02-2012, 22:48
airwaves
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I just hope it includes Chris Oxlade as he has been covering shows for them these last few weeks, his first gig back on the radio since Mercury Fm closed down.
Indeed. A guy called Mark Benson is covering Daytimes at the moment who apparently worked for Real Yorkshire and spent a bit of time at Capital.

kmfm Extra is a bit of a strange one. While I appreciate it fills a local niche, I'm not sure it's on the right platform when the station is competing with the likes of Capital and Kiss on the Kent multiplex which also cater for a similar kind of audience.
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Old 19-02-2012, 00:15
Martin Phillp
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kmfm Extra is a bit of a strange one. While I appreciate it fills a local niche, I'm not sure it's on the right platform when the station is competing with the likes of Capital and Kiss on the Kent multiplex which also cater for a similar kind of audience.
Again, it's better left to Capital and Kiss which are already on the Kent multiplex to accommodate those listeners. If and when kmfm start networked breakfast, the DAB slot should have the main station.
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Old 19-02-2012, 08:37
deejayguy
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If we are not going to do that, then sweep away Ofcom & all the rules & let stations do as they please.
Now that's one radical thought.

So, why not? It seems to me Ofcom eventually caves in over pretty much everything so commercial radio is going to get to the same place eventually.

With Ofcom it might take a while to reach the end game, without it things will happen a lot quicker. Either way the result could be the same.

The industry seems caught in a vicious downward spiral if "localness" is your yardstick. Once you let one group do something, you're hard pressed not to let everyone else do it: hence quasi-national brands, networking, voice-tracking etc.

So, if eventually everyone will be able to do what they like (and with Ofcom's track record that's not an unreasonable assumption, is it?) what's the point in Ofcom?

There are plenty of other laws of the land to keep stations in line (libel, slander, taste and decency etc which existed long before Ofcom and are not enforced by it). Ofcom is just a layer of bureaucracy we probably don't need. What is it actually doing that's of any use to anyone?
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Old 19-02-2012, 09:21
Ridgieman
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Indeed. A guy called Mark Benson is covering Daytimes at the moment who apparently worked for Real Yorkshire and spent a bit of time at Capital.
.
I wondered who it was who was covering that slot. Sounds to me as though there could be a big move around at KMFM shortly.
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Old 19-02-2012, 09:27
ink171
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Maybe he could team up with Charlie from the Kiss breakfast show and they could call it Benson and Hedges. Or get his brother Dave Benson Phillips to do a show. As long as that irritating Nigel Mansell bloke doesn't end up back on there.
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Old 19-02-2012, 10:56
Bundyman
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Best post on here... Problem is rooted in over licencing and then allowing licence drift.. Around here Centre Fm a Sallie for Tamworth/Burton/Lichfield started sounding great - a proper radio station but its been a slippery slope to what we have today - a largely automated and networked jukebox. Other problem I agree with Bundy is the drift to the middle ground of specialist regional stations licenced to provide choice - like Saga to Smooth, Heart into Chart stuff, Choice into Galaxy into Capital.

Exactly

Radio stations that started well would still be doing that if we didn't have a weak regulator who can't say no.

10 years ago they would have never even asked to network large parts of daytime or breakfast on FM as they would have been laughed at. Now it's far too easy to keep asking for reductions in service & get a yes.

You are correct, it then becomes a downward spiral. The station doesn't sound as good as it did, figures start to fall as listeners desert it & it becomes harder to sell so more networking is needed. If they had continued to do it properly, it would be in a better position.

UTV & UKRD manage to do daytimes live at all sites without merging them...it can be done, but you have to have managers with a passion for radio & the output. Far too many only have a passion for the cost of it.
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Old 19-02-2012, 14:25
up to the vocal
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Exactly

Radio stations that started well would still be doing that if we didn't have a weak regulator who can't say no.

10 years ago they would have never even asked to network large parts of daytime or breakfast on FM as they would have been laughed at. Now it's far too easy to keep asking for reductions in service & get a yes.

You are correct, it then becomes a downward spiral. The station doesn't sound as good as it did, figures start to fall as listeners desert it & it becomes harder to sell so more networking is needed. If they had continued to do it properly, it would be in a better position.

UTV & UKRD manage to do daytimes live at all sites without merging them...it can be done, but you have to have managers with a passion for radio & the output. Far too many only have a passion for the cost of it.
Post of the decade,Well said,
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Old 19-02-2012, 14:44
Bingethink
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You are correct, it then becomes a downward spiral. The station doesn't sound as good as it did, figures start to fall as listeners desert it & it becomes harder to sell so more networking is needed. If they had continued to do it properly, it would be in a better position.
But that's not necessarily true.

Smooth's figures, for example, are up since it became a national station - currently at its best ever in the East Mids, North West, North East and Glasgow. More people are listening since they ditched the local presenters and brought in well-known names like Bates, Jensen and Goodier.
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Old 19-02-2012, 14:51
Bundyman
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But that's not necessarily true.

Smooth's figures, for example, are up since it became a national station - currently at its best ever in the East Mids, North West, North East and Glasgow. More people are listening since they ditched the local presenters and brought in well-known names like Bates, Jensen and Goodier.
I was really talking about the small stations like what used to be Centre FM as it was mentioned, rather than big regionals like Smooth.

I didn't look at the year on year figs for Smooth, but i will.
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Old 19-02-2012, 15:11
Bingethink
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UTV & UKRD manage to do daytimes live at all sites without merging them...
Apart from merging Central into The Bee, and merging then selling or shutting down stations they couldn't make pay! (e.g. Mix 107)
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Old 19-02-2012, 15:15
Bundyman
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And UKRD have also sold or shut down stations they couldn't make pay!
And?

I never said that ALL small stations were viable, i did say that the RA handed out licences without checking if they were.

The point is that not all small stations were un-viable & UKRD runs those live & local. If they & UTV can, so could others.
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Old 19-02-2012, 15:37
Mapperley Ridge
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Apart from merging Central into The Bee, and merging then selling or shutting down stations they couldn't make pay! (e.g. Mix 107)
You are, of course, missing the main point. Bundy likes the smaller groups when they do networking for business reasons, but not the big ones, because they should naturally operate under entirely different rules to everyone else.
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Old 19-02-2012, 15:53
Bingethink
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The point is that not all small stations were un-viable & UKRD runs those live & local.
Except the ones that it doesn't, like CountySound (no presenters) or Central (merged with neighbouring The Bee).

What I don't understand is why KMFM's strategy of merging its unviable local stations (in what is clearly a editorially justifiable local area - i.e. Kent) is worse than UKRD's strategy of closing them down.

You'd prefer to see separate breakfast shows in, say, Maidstone and Canterbury, but three or four of the other stations close??
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Old 19-02-2012, 16:03
Bundyman
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You are, of course, missing the main point. Bundy likes the smaller groups when they do networking for business reasons, but not the big ones, because they should naturally operate under entirely different rules to everyone else.
Why shouldn't there be different rules for larger stations.

They already have larger areas with more potential listeners.

Why on earth should have the same rules as smaller staions that don't have large areas or as much cash.
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Old 19-02-2012, 19:00
Mapperley Ridge
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Why shouldn't there be different rules for larger stations.

They already have larger areas with more potential listeners.

Why on earth should have the same rules as smaller staions that don't have large areas or as much cash.


Because that is the nature of business. Something which you have repeatedly refused to accept.
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Old 19-02-2012, 20:46
dpb
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Best post on here... Problem is rooted in over licencing and then allowing licence drift.. Around here Centre Fm a Sallie for Tamworth/Burton/Lichfield started sounding great - a proper radio station but its been a slippery slope to what we have today - a largely automated and networked jukebox. <snip>
I only really followed Centre FM for its first couple of years but it was a great station which certainly punched above it's weight in a very competitive market against Heart (which was more or less mainstream AC by this point) and overlapping BRMB, Century and (until it's TSA changed) RAM in parts. At launch it was a coup for them to get Sean Goldsmith for breakfast, Mike Vitti I think on drivetime and was the programmer and it had a great news service. IIRC it even had 19 hours live and local at one point.

Interestingly I think the changes Quidem have made in the last six-twelve months have resulted in more localness returning even when the shows aren't coming from Tamworth. Don't know what it's like now but before Christmas during the network weekday daytime show in each hour they were running travel bulletins just for the area, local news on the half hour and what's on/community information. It's perhaps a bit too compartmentised and not that interactive but it seemed to be quality local information. Looking at local content alone I could find very difference between that and the live local hours I've heard of of UTV (which has great local stations) and (when they were operational) MNA apart from local place names mentioned in links although these often would be dedications or competition answers as 'whats-on'/community information features would often be seperate to links.

I've not heard much of the weekday daytime output of the Media Sound stations which have been mentioned (apart from the Aircheck of what was the late Chris Copsey's last breakfast show) but the presenters there I've heard elsewhere I know are very good and have read good reviews of the station of still doing the local things that matter while benefiting from shared output.

Be interesting to see what KMFM actually do when all the programming is shared, see if they do keep the local news bulletins, see if they use technology to still deliver local content. I think perhaps they have been written off by some in this thread with sweeping generalisations before they've actually implemented any changes.

Personally for me commercial radio in the Midlands is at an end - only listen to the BBC and my internet radio. You would think major cities like Derby,Nottingham & Leicester could support a commercial radio service but in 2012 possibly not! <snip>
I think they could but it might have to be part networked if not voicetracked outside of daytime. In my ideal world we would have Capital on 105.4 across the East Midlands (which I think has finally filled that long term gap of a younger targeted service in the region) and three local services for each city - maybe co-located but seperate most of the time similar to UTV's services out of Wigan. They would find it a struggle though as in my opinion Capital, Gem and Smooth are good services - not to mention the advertising issues Mapperley raised as well.
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Old 19-02-2012, 21:05
Martin Phillp
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Be interesting to see what KMFM actually do when all the programming is shared, see if they do keep the local news bulletins, see if they use technology to still deliver local content. I think perhaps they have been written off by some in this thread with sweeping generalisations before they've actually implemented any changes.
They already have split community information during the networked shows, not to mention the advertising.

Ideally the Media Sound way of smart networking across each station would be the way forward. They already have Nigel Ansell who worked for the company.
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Old 19-02-2012, 21:48
Bundyman
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[/b]

Because that is the nature of business. Something which you have repeatedly refused to accept.
Which really fails to answer the qustion, so let me do it for you.

Some programming sharing is allowed to help small stations who have small areas hit by the recession & the the changes to larger stations allowed by Ofcom that have made life difficult.

The bigger groups say..we want that as well, even though is no justifaction for it to be applied to larger stations

There is no reason to apply something to help stations to larger ones, other than the larger ones seem to dictate to Ofcom what happens rather than the other way around
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