Like most dog owners, I suspect, occasionally I look through the classifieds at whats on sale at the minute. I saw an advert today which looked curious. It was two french bulldog pups, male £900 female £1200 - but the owners are withholding the papers so that the dogs can't go to breeders. 'Papers can be seen' it says, but not taken home, so we can suppose this is a legitimate claim.

I suppose the owners think they are doing the best they can for the pups, but I think they are misguided. I think the chances of pups going to irresponsible breeders is much higher if they have no papers, because the breeders won't be doing it for the love of the breed, merely because they want to make a cheap buck and they know they can sell such a rare dog, papers or not. The bitch is more likely to be crossed with another, possibly unsuitable breed, rather than a dog approved by the KC. The pups will be untraceable and in a rare breed, could easily interbreed in future by mistake of the owners.

And another thing, it assumes a level of snobbery towards the people who may want to breed from the pups. Just because someone isn't a qualified dog breeder, doesn't mean that they won't be a very good and responsible breeder. Just like you can't guarantee that anyone will treat the pups you sell them well.

Interested to hear thoughts on this, as I do sympathise with the owners of the pups, but surely if they feel so strongly the best thing to do would be keep the dogs until they are older and have them neutered?

What are 'papers' though?

The pedigree? Can be faked. Parent's KC registration? Could be they haven't complied with the KC breeding rules or because their registration is endorsed. Puppies KC papers? Well, if they have them, why no tjust get them endorsed?

Most likely back yard breeder out to make a quick buck themselves and haven't registered the pups with the KC because they can't.

My first thought was that the dogs were stolen, but what would be the point of registering the pups, showing the new owner the KC papers to guarantee breed, then not hand them over, if not to deter back yard breeders? Unless they had been faked, I suppose.

I would be surprised if the papers had even come through yet at 8 weeks!

A lot of breeders put restrictions on their dog's papers to avoid breeding. In reality it only stops someone registering the puppies with the kennel club. From the breeders I know, endorsements are a small thing to limit the chances of their pups being bred from, but as you rightly acknowledge, this can never be guaranteed. I'm not sure if breeders could effectively sue for breach of contract I also agree that there could be a small amount of snobbery present too.

Do they literally not hand them over, then? I find that a bit weird. But then, I have never bred from a dog and may feel differently if I had.

The puppie's pedigree papers will have endorsements on them to prohibit breeding. In reality, it doesn't actually stop breeding, but it would mean that any future litters couldn't be registered with the kennel club. Endorsements can be lifted by the original breeder.

The advert about these pups say that the papers won't be handed over. Must be something dodgy going on then or they could just place an endorsement on the papers.

If people were that responsible then why are they breeding the dogs in the first place. They can't care that much about the welfare of the pups, or they just wouldn't breed them.

They might not be KC papers. Other 'pedigree papers' (and I use the term loosely) don't have the ability to have endorsements put on them afaik. KC aren't perfect but are the best of a bad lot at the moment.

I've never understood a bitch being more expensive than a dog either and that along with where you saw the advert rings more alarm bells with me than the unwillingness to hand over the papers.

I have the kennel club pedigree papers for a 14year old bitch that i have owned since she was little more than a fuzzball in the palm of my hand, she has quite a few medical problems which thankfully do not inhibit her quality of life (thanks in large part to petplan and some very talented vets) but a small animal specialist pointed out that the main problem she has, a collapsing trachea is in there opinion caused by bad breeding, so im not sure having papers really helps, I could of bred her with the official paperwork but any pups would of inherited the problems luckily im not a breeder, but I do know she has/had a brother out there somewhere and who knows if he was used and there are others out there that now have the same problems?

Oxymoron.

If the "breeder" is withholding papers so they can't be bred from, why are they charging a higher price for bitches? Bad breeders charge more for bitches because they can obviously be bred from!

A responsible breeder would put endorsements on the pedigree, not withhold papers.

Does seem very odd to me. Most people if given the choice (all other things being equal) would surely go for puppies that had papers that you could take away with the puppy, so I can't see it will help them sell their puppies - unless they are selling theirs cheaper than everyone else.

I would actually be suspicious though that the papers were forged by the breeders (they might be afraid I'd realise or be able to check they were forged if I took them away?).

On related topic - the Kennel Club themselves are trying to clamp down on puppy farms registering puppies, see http://www.petwebsite.com/article_read_dogs.asp?id=657