Why is setting your team up to get the best out of a player who can score up to 60 goals a season now described as "indulging their star players ego"? Remarkable spin.
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because getting the best out of one player (which is arguable) doesn't necessarily equate to getting the best out of the entire team. that much should be obvious.
Originally Posted by Pee:
“because getting the best out of one player (which is arguable) doesn't necessarily equate to getting the best out of the entire team. that much should be obvious.”
“because getting the best out of one player (which is arguable) doesn't necessarily equate to getting the best out of the entire team. that much should be obvious.”
Ronaldo has been a goalscoring machine at Real Madrid. Clubs down the years throughout the history of football will always play to the strengths of their outstanding player - that much is obvious too. It amazes me that when its Ronaldo its framed as his selfishness as if he controls the entire direction that Real Madrid goes in and no one else has any say in the matter.
Originally Posted by NiteOwl12:
“Which reinforces your observation of a few days ago, "it should make Madrid look at what Barcelona have done right over the last 10 years compared to Madrid."”
“Which reinforces your observation of a few days ago, "it should make Madrid look at what Barcelona have done right over the last 10 years compared to Madrid."”
Well no its just I doubt you will see another side through the years which has am outstanding player who is way above 99% of the rest be in a side which wins so few trophies.
Not a dig at him as his been amazing at Madrid even though I think his overall contribution to games now has decreased even though he will still score loads of games.
Originally Posted by Pee:
“because getting the best out of one player (which is arguable) doesn't necessarily equate to getting the best out of the entire team. that much should be obvious.”
“because getting the best out of one player (which is arguable) doesn't necessarily equate to getting the best out of the entire team. that much should be obvious.”
We had a similar sort of problem with Ruud, when he was with us, in the season he scored 44 goals in all comps for us, if I remember correctly, we didn't win anything, which goes to show, getting the best out of one player, is sometimes not the best idea.
Originally Posted by misawa97:
“Well no its just I doubt you will see another side through the years which has am outstanding player who is way above 99% of the rest be in a side which wins so few trophies.
Not a dig at him as his been amazing at Madrid even though I think his overall contribution to games now has decreased even though he will still score loads of games.”
“Well no its just I doubt you will see another side through the years which has am outstanding player who is way above 99% of the rest be in a side which wins so few trophies.
Not a dig at him as his been amazing at Madrid even though I think his overall contribution to games now has decreased even though he will still score loads of games.”
Ah, I see,I thought the point you were making was more interesting than that narrow observation.
For instance, Ronaldo has been at Madrid for 7 seasons 2009-16 during which they have won La Liga once (Barcelona 5 times) and the Champions League once (Barcelona twice).
In the previous seven years 2002-09 they won La Liga 3 times (Barcelona 3 times) and didn't win the Champions League at all (Barcelona twice)..
Real have a Barcelona problem rather than a Ronaldo problem (I know you are not arguing they have a Ronaldo problem).
Originally Posted by Stilton Cheesew:
“Ronaldo has been a goalscoring machine at Real Madrid. Clubs down the years throughout the history of football will always play to the strengths of their outstanding player - that much is obvious too. It amazes me that when its Ronaldo its framed as his selfishness as if he controls the entire direction that Real Madrid goes in and no one else has any say in the matter.”
“Ronaldo has been a goalscoring machine at Real Madrid. Clubs down the years throughout the history of football will always play to the strengths of their outstanding player - that much is obvious too. It amazes me that when its Ronaldo its framed as his selfishness as if he controls the entire direction that Real Madrid goes in and no one else has any say in the matter.”
you play to the strengths of your best player in a way that benefits the team. having one player shooting as much as his other strike partners combined doesn't do that. yes he's been a goalscoring machine over the years, but his goals don't come that efficiently. this season for instance, he's scored 35 league goals which is of course a fantastic return, but they've come from 227 shots. compare that with Suarez whose 40 goals came from just 137 shots. he's averaged about 2 shots per game more than Messi during his time in La Liga, which equates to nearly 500 more shots to score a similar number of goals. chasing goals in the manner that he does disrupts the balance of the team more often than not.
Originally Posted by Pee:
“you play to the strengths of your best player in a way that benefits the team. having one player shooting as much as his other strike partners combined doesn't do that. yes he's been a goalscoring machine over the years, but his goals don't come that efficiently. this season for instance, he's scored 35 league goals which is of course a fantastic return, but they've come from 227 shots. compare that with Suarez whose 40 goals came from just 137 shots. he's averaged about 2 shots per game more than Messi during his time in La Liga, which equates to nearly 500 more shots to score a similar number of goals. chasing goals in the manner that he does disrupts the balance of the team more often than not.”
“you play to the strengths of your best player in a way that benefits the team. having one player shooting as much as his other strike partners combined doesn't do that. yes he's been a goalscoring machine over the years, but his goals don't come that efficiently. this season for instance, he's scored 35 league goals which is of course a fantastic return, but they've come from 227 shots. compare that with Suarez whose 40 goals came from just 137 shots. he's averaged about 2 shots per game more than Messi during his time in La Liga, which equates to nearly 500 more shots to score a similar number of goals. chasing goals in the manner that he does disrupts the balance of the team more often than not.”
Its an odd stat to trot out unless you can demonstrate that his strike partners would have a better conversion rate that he would should the chances have fallen to them, or indeed that they would be capable of being in the same positions in the first place.
I'll be honest Ive never really seen this used against other strikers. Kane scored 25 goals this season "ah yes but he had 500 shots" isn't something you would ever tend to see mentioned anywhere, in fact for strikers that aren't called Ronaldo the spin tends to be "where would the team be without his goals?". Its very much speculation in that respect. There will come a point where inevitably he doesn't score the same volume and at that point he would cease to be the focal point or indeed cease to be at that level at all.
luckily I actually watch pretty much all the games as opposed to just looking at stats. instead of stats, I could have mentioned the number of time I see Ronaldo shooting from 40 yards rather than look to create an opening for his team-mates, or getting into goalscoring positions already taken up by his team-mates, or taking ALL the free-kicks regardless of position or distance even though he's missed his previous 100 or so and there are other takers in the team, or berating team-mates whenever they don't give him the ball, and him being allowed to do all these with complete impunity. the club pandering to his incessant goal-chasing does not benefit the team.
funny you mention Kane, actually, as I do point out when I think he too is being selfish. if and when he starts shooting 8 or 9 times a game chasing personal stats rather than taking the best decisions for the team, then you'll probably see me mentioning it a great deal more.
funny you mention Kane, actually, as I do point out when I think he too is being selfish. if and when he starts shooting 8 or 9 times a game chasing personal stats rather than taking the best decisions for the team, then you'll probably see me mentioning it a great deal more.
Originally Posted by Nova21:
“Man United fans will always be very touchy at any criticism of Ronaldo.”
“Man United fans will always be very touchy at any criticism of Ronaldo.”
They're not. Maybe they've just watched him enough to realise that he doesn't deserve blinkered opinions.
Originally Posted by JoTaylor:
“They're not. Maybe they've just watched him enough to realise that he doesn't deserve blinkered opinions.”
“They're not. Maybe they've just watched him enough to realise that he doesn't deserve blinkered opinions.”
Or, and here's a bit of a left-field suggestion, perhaps United fans don't all think the same way, and have their own opinions.
Sweeping generalisations are always pretty lame.
Originally Posted by Nova21:
“Man United fans will always be very touchy at any criticism of Ronaldo.”
“Man United fans will always be very touchy at any criticism of Ronaldo.”
Why, he is an ex player of ours, are we not allowed to hold opinions of him, good or bad, critical or non-critical??
I suppose it is one way to derail a discussion.
In reserve:
Liverpool fans will always be very touchy at any criticism of Suarez.
Chelsea fans will always be very touchy at any criticism of Drogba.
In reserve:
Liverpool fans will always be very touchy at any criticism of Suarez.
Chelsea fans will always be very touchy at any criticism of Drogba.
It's not unusual for fans to be protective of their own players and managers, past and present. Especially fan-favourites or legends like Ronaldo and Steven Gerrard. I've also seen fans of Guardiola getting protective over him when he's criticised. It's not unique to Man United fans.
[quote=TheMunch;82415335]It's not unusual for fans to be protective of their own players and managers, past and present. Especially fan-favourites or legends like Ronaldo and Steven Gerrard. I've also seen fans of Guardiola getting protective over him when he's criticised. It's not unique to Man United fans.
I agree even if the man united fans here don't acknowledge. I was just pointing out to the poster above me at that stage as to why Stilton was reacting the way that he was to the stats that had been posted about Ronaldo.
I agree even if the man united fans here don't acknowledge. I was just pointing out to the poster above me at that stage as to why Stilton was reacting the way that he was to the stats that had been posted about Ronaldo.
Is Stilton a United fan?
Pretty sure that he's said previously that he isn't.
Regardless, him holding whatever view on Ronaldo doesn't have to be related to who he supports. We're not all that childish.
Pretty sure that he's said previously that he isn't.
Regardless, him holding whatever view on Ronaldo doesn't have to be related to who he supports. We're not all that childish.
I reacted the way I did as it's a shame to see every Barcelona achievement linked in some way to overshadowing Ronaldo rather than just being a stand alone achievement. No mention of messi's much decreased return this season? No, thought not.
Originally Posted by Stilton Cheesew:
“I reacted the way I did as it's a shame to see every Barcelona achievement linked in some way to overshadowing Ronaldo rather than just being a stand alone achievement. No mention of messi's much decreased return this season? No, thought not.”
“I reacted the way I did as it's a shame to see every Barcelona achievement linked in some way to overshadowing Ronaldo rather than just being a stand alone achievement. No mention of messi's much decreased return this season? No, thought not.”
Fair do's mate.
The conversation at that point was about Ronaldo and Real Madrid in general and not about Messi performance this season.
Originally Posted by Jim De Ville:
“Is Stilton a United fan?
Pretty sure that he's said previously that he isn't.
Regardless, him holding whatever view on Ronaldo doesn't have to be related to who he supports. We're not all that childish.”
“Is Stilton a United fan?
Pretty sure that he's said previously that he isn't.
Regardless, him holding whatever view on Ronaldo doesn't have to be related to who he supports. We're not all that childish.”
Not sure, I did ask him a week or so ago But he didn't say, just got the impression from his posts that he was a man united fan.
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