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Discussion: Do Sales and Success really mean a lot to be seen as an Icon or a Legend?


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Old 28-02-2012, 16:27
little-monster
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In my own personal opinion, you do not seen to sell millions of records and have a lot of success to be remembered as an Icon or a Legend.

I am curious to know what others think.

An example has to be Dusty Springfield. She had small success but after 2/3 albums, every album that followed was a failure. She hasn't sold millions of records. But.... she became the first Female to crack the states, gained huge acclaim, easily one of the most respected Soul singers to have ever been alive, perhaps easily one of the best vocalists ever, and became an Icon with her Trademark Behive and heavy make up, plus her Camp Stage movements which immediatley won her a Gay Fanbase that still is active today.
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Old 28-02-2012, 16:30
Viscount Byron
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..Depends on who you ask, I personally can't stand Bob Dylan and believe he wrote extraordinarily bad music ..but he is seen as an Icon and Legend to millions of others. It all depends on just who you are asking.
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Old 28-02-2012, 16:34
harveybest
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No

Jimi Hendrix- Syd Barrett-Nick Drake-John Martyn-Jeff Buckley

All legends to many but didn't sell records by the bucket load.

I can imagine some people going who the **** are that lot.
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Old 28-02-2012, 20:03
Jon Ross
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In my own personal opinion, you do not seen to sell millions of records and have a lot of success to be remembered as an Icon or a Legend.

I am curious to know what others think.

An example has to be Dusty Springfield. She had small success but after 2/3 albums, every album that followed was a failure. She hasn't sold millions of records.
I'm sure Dusty Springfield has sold millions of records, though I'm not sure of the exact figure. She was certainly one of the biggest selling British female artists of her generation.
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Old 28-02-2012, 21:05
Fabala
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No

Jimi Hendrix- Syd Barrett-Nick Drake-John Martyn-Jeff Buckley

All legends to many but didn't sell records by the bucket load.

I can imagine some people going who the **** are that lot.
Great post. Jeff Buckley is a good one to highlight, despite having only one official studio album release to me he is a legend.
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Old 28-02-2012, 21:16
lacrymosa
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Indeed, this is a great post! Sales are no barometer for whether one can be considered a legend or an Icon, there are I believe too many examples of artists that don't or haven't sold millions of records yet they are considered to be Legendary or Iconic, Jeff Buckley bieng one such arist is incredible and ''Grace' is astounding!
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Old 28-02-2012, 21:19
jackbell
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In my own personal opinion, you do not seen to sell millions of records and have a lot of success to be remembered as an Icon or a Legend.

I am curious to know what others think.

An example has to be Dusty Springfield. She had small success but after 2/3 albums, every album that followed was a failure. She hasn't sold millions of records. But.... she became the first Female to crack the states, gained huge acclaim, easily one of the most respected Soul singers to have ever been alive, perhaps easily one of the best vocalists ever, and became an Icon with her Trademark Behive and heavy make up, plus her Camp Stage movements which immediatley won her a Gay Fanbase that still is active today.
Dusty is an interesting example. Her most iconic album, the benchmark by which all great female albums are judged by - Dusty In Memphis - didn't even chart.

As you say, her chart history is sketchy but what is important in making her a pop icon was her timeless & unique voice, her 'look', her impeccable choice of material and how her authenticly American her records sounded, which often meant she produced herself in the 60's (unofficially) and gave her the reputation of being 'difficult' in the studio.
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Old 28-02-2012, 21:34
Lamaestra
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Jack, you are brilliant. This is absolutely true. True talent shines through whatever the level of success.

The 'success' of manufactured acts proves your point. They have not sold as much as they have because they are particularly good, just that those who put them where they are are sucked in by image and hype. The success of the likes of Kylie, Westlife and the Spice Girls proves this, although (apart from Posh) I didn't really mind the Spice Girls as they never took themselves too seriously.

The Who are legendary, yet they have never had a chart topper anywhere in the world.

Agree 100% on Dusty. Only one chart topper from this immense talent. Yet the Melbourne Muppet has had 6 or 7 or something ridiculous like that.
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Old 28-02-2012, 21:37
lumiere
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Add Grace Jones and The Velvet Underground to the list too.
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Old 28-02-2012, 21:40
Lamaestra
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Definitely, Lumiere. These guys, whether or not you are a fan, did things on their own terms and blazed new trails.

Some years ago, I was introduced to the music of Nico from the Velvet Underground. Awesome!
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Old 29-02-2012, 01:43
n1ko0
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A question about icons that hasn't been asked by ilovezenyatta?!?!? I am in SHOCK!!
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Old 29-02-2012, 03:36
Jonesy88
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Indeed, this is a great post! Sales are no barometer for whether one can be considered a legend or an Icon, there are I believe too many examples of artists that don't or haven't sold millions of records yet they are considered to be Legendary or Iconic, Jeff Buckley bieng one such arist is incredible and ''Grace' is astounding!
My thoughts.
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Old 29-02-2012, 11:08
Mr_X_123
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..Depends on who you ask, I personally can't stand Bob Dylan and believe he wrote extraordinarily bad music ..but he is seen as an Icon and Legend to millions of others. It all depends on just who you are asking.
Is it more that you haven't been bothered trying to understand where Dylan is coming from?

Cos appreciating his work is not about listening for a catchy three minute soundbite. But understanding the history of where he was, why he was writing what he was, and how he changed and evolved, many many times.

Bit like Shakespeare really, once you've cracked it, its literally the best thing you have ever done.
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Old 29-02-2012, 11:35
Slojo
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I don't think sales are the key to achieveing Icon on Legend Status - though I expect they help when trying to get a message out

I think its often more about how the act impacts on the direction of music in general or society

For example

The spice girls became icons because of how they impacted on society with their Girl Power message not for the quality or sales of their music
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Old 29-02-2012, 12:33
jackbell
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The fact that Westlife have had a gazillion number ones makes them about as iconic and legendary as Showaddywaddy.
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Old 29-02-2012, 16:14
AlexMalgua
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It depends on which perspective you see it from. From a media point of view, it is very subjective and as soon as a music act takes the world by storm for long enough they're seen as legend/icon/Powerful and whatever label they can think of to big them up. From the general public, it depends on whom you're talking to, their personal connection with these acts, the impact they have on them.
Also we are at different times. And the way to measure success back then was totally different than the way we're doing it now. Talking about Dusty Springfield, for instance, despite not selling much after her first albums, she was still prominent in the 60s. She had her own TV shows, duetted with high profiles of the time and was very influential (if my memory is correct she's responsible for bringing Motown artists to the UK). Her decline properly started in the early 70's when her style went out of fashion as did the 60's Motown/pop sound. So, in that sense, to her contemporaries, I wouldn't be surprised she had already reached this Icon/Legend status.
To me, this status is all about (cultural) impact, sense of uniqueness and remaining in people's consciousness years on rather than sales.

If I go by this Definition then:
BB King
Elvis Priestley
Otis Redding
James Brown
Marvin Gaye
The Supremes
The Beatles
The Rolling Stones
The Doors
Dusty Springfield
Michael Jackson
Madonna
Edith Piaf
Charles Aznavour
Tina Turner
Aretha Franklin
Nina Simone
Billie Holiday
Ella Fitzgerald
Grace Jones
Chic
Mylene Farmer

among others are obvious icons/legends to me.
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Old 29-02-2012, 17:26
Fabala
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It depends on which perspective you see it from. From a media point of view, it is very subjective and as soon as a music act takes the world by storm for long enough they're seen as legend/icon/Powerful and whatever label they can think of to big them up. From the general public, it depends on whom you're talking to, their personal connection with these acts, the impact they have on them.
Also we are at different times. And the way to measure success back then was totally different than the way we're doing it now. Talking about Dusty Springfield, for instance, despite not selling much after her first albums, she was still prominent in the 60s. She had her own TV shows, duetted with high profiles of the time and was very influential (if my memory is correct she's responsible for bringing Motown artists to the UK). Her decline properly started in the early 70's when her style went out of fashion as did the 60's Motown/pop sound. So, in that sense, to her contemporaries, I wouldn't be surprised she had already reached this Icon/Legend status.
To me, this status is all about (cultural) impact, sense of uniqueness and remaining in people's consciousness years on rather than sales.

If I go by this Definition then:
BB King
Elvis Priestley
Otis Redding
James Brown
Marvin Gaye
The Supremes
The Beatles
The Rolling Stones
The Doors
Dusty Springfield
Michael Jackson
Madonna
Edith Piaf
Charles Aznavour
Tina Turner
Aretha Franklin
Nina Simone
Billie Holiday
Ella Fitzgerald
Grace Jones
Chic
Mylene Farmer

among others are obvious icons/legends to me.
I agree with your list and the points you make. The problem with the whole term iconic is that it's grossly misused by fans. Someone like Adele for example, is not an icon. She may well be in years to come, but right now she isn't. But you'll get fans talking about the amount of albums she's sold and the awards she's won, as if it's relevant. For me, the amount of records sold needs to be combined with cultural and artistic impact. You can have that without the sales figures, you can't have the sales figures without the impact. Too many people on this forum are guilty of misunderstanding this concept.
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Old 29-02-2012, 18:00
Waldstein
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I agree with your list and the points you make. The problem with the whole term iconic is that it's grossly misused by fans. Someone like Adele for example, is not an icon. She may well be in years to come, but right now she isn't. But you'll get fans talking about the amount of albums she's sold and the awards she's won, as if it's relevant. For me, the amount of records sold needs to be combined with cultural and artistic impact. You can have that without the sales figures, you can't have the sales figures without the impact. Too many people on this forum are guilty of misunderstanding this concept.
I definitely agree with your point about the misuse of the word 'iconic'. It's thrown about much too liberally (as is the word 'genius' but that's another discussion ).

I suppose regarding Adele (who I personally don't regard as an icon), it's not a question of her having massive sales but the fact that those sales are so large that 21 now resides in the top 10 selling albums of all time in Britain. Does inclusion in this list automatically giver her 'icon' status?

The one example of a huge selling album by a female artist that comes to mind right now is Jagged Little Pill by Alanis Morrisette which was (and perhaps still is) the biggest selling debut album by a female artist of all time. Is Alanis regarded as an icon or a 90's rock phenomenon? For me it's the latter because she never followed her album up with something that had such a cultural (and sales) impact as her debut. Time will tell I suppose whether we will look back at Adele as an icon or a phenomenon but 'icon' status is definitely there for the taking if she can follow up with a solid, well-received album.
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Old 29-02-2012, 18:01
mushymanrob
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I agree with your list and the points you make. The problem with the whole term iconic is that it's grossly misused by fans. Someone like Adele for example, is not an icon. She may well be in years to come, but right now she isn't. But you'll get fans talking about the amount of albums she's sold and the awards she's won, as if it's relevant. For me, the amount of records sold needs to be combined with cultural and artistic impact. You can have that without the sales figures, you can't have the sales figures without the impact. Too many people on this forum are guilty of misunderstanding this concept.
we appear to often be in agreement, and on this thread theres no change there! lol.. well said.
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Old 29-02-2012, 18:05
mushymanrob
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'icon' and 'legend' are two sayings that are over used and or used inappropriately by 'fans of' to boost their worship of their chosen hero.
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Old 29-02-2012, 18:30
Hav_mor91
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Kate bsuh has had number 1 albums etc but only hounds of love and the whole story have passed 2X platinum it's not important just an added bonus if they have critical and commercial success if deserving
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Old 29-02-2012, 18:34
SamMcK
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It depends on which perspective you see it from. From a media point of view, it is very subjective and as soon as a music act takes the world by storm for long enough they're seen as legend/icon/Powerful and whatever label they can think of to big them up. From the general public, it depends on whom you're talking to, their personal connection with these acts, the impact they have on them.
Also we are at different times. And the way to measure success back then was totally different than the way we're doing it now. Talking about Dusty Springfield, for instance, despite not selling much after her first albums, she was still prominent in the 60s. She had her own TV shows, duetted with high profiles of the time and was very influential (if my memory is correct she's responsible for bringing Motown artists to the UK). Her decline properly started in the early 70's when her style went out of fashion as did the 60's Motown/pop sound. So, in that sense, to her contemporaries, I wouldn't be surprised she had already reached this Icon/Legend status.
To me, this status is all about (cultural) impact, sense of uniqueness and remaining in people's consciousness years on rather than sales.

If I go by this Definition then:
BB King
Elvis Priestley
Otis Redding
James Brown
Marvin Gaye
The Supremes
The Beatles
The Rolling Stones
The Doors
Dusty Springfield
Michael Jackson
Madonna
Edith Piaf
Charles Aznavour
Tina Turner
Aretha Franklin
Nina Simone
Billie Holiday
Ella Fitzgerald
Grace Jones
Chic
Mylene Farmer

among others are obvious icons/legends to me.
What no Sinatra?
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Old 01-03-2012, 00:37
AlexMalgua
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I agree with your list and the points you make. The problem with the whole term iconic is that it's grossly misused by fans. Someone like Adele for example, is not an icon. She may well be in years to come, but right now she isn't. But you'll get fans talking about the amount of albums she's sold and the awards she's won, as if it's relevant. For me, the amount of records sold needs to be combined with cultural and artistic impact. You can have that without the sales figures, you can't have the sales figures without the impact. Too many people on this forum are guilty of misunderstanding this concept.
Yep! It seems to be an obsession in this forum around sales from a lot people who make the latest novelty act icon because they currently dominate the charts even if this act has no significant impact and happens to be the popular act of the moment. You've raised another point (and Waldstein touched upon it too), citing Adele as an example in a sense you can have music acts who are phenomenon at the time but that doesn't mean they are an icon/legend (yet). Adele, to me, with 21 is a phenomenon as she's doing something you haven't seen for a long time in terms of sales and because how the general public across the world seems to respond to her album. Would I call her a legend? Certainly not. She may have captured the imagination but she's not the only one making soulful MOR music - you've got Ed Sheeran doing well, James Morrison, before them James Blunt, Dido and so on...Time will tell then if she can go beyond the phenomenon tag. Some managed smoothly, some unfortunately were victims of this success - Alanis Morissette, as Waldstein mentioned, being the best example I can think of.
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Old 01-03-2012, 00:41
AlexMalgua
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What no Sinatra?
Nancy or Frank? - If I were to include the father then it'd be so unfair not mention the others from the Rat Pack. I see the group as iconic - not sure about each member having this status on their own
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Old 01-03-2012, 00:45
iseloid
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Agree with all the above. Adele sure as hell isn't a legend or icon at all. I wonder if she will be. But I don't know. She hasn't done anything new or incredible besides sell well. I know many soul legends, who haven't sold well at all, ie Etta James.
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