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Discussion: Do Sales and Success really mean a lot to be seen as an Icon or a Legend? |
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#1 |
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Discussion: Do Sales and Success really mean a lot to be seen as an Icon or a Legend?
In my own personal opinion, you do not seen to sell millions of records and have a lot of success to be remembered as an Icon or a Legend.
I am curious to know what others think. An example has to be Dusty Springfield. She had small success but after 2/3 albums, every album that followed was a failure. She hasn't sold millions of records. But.... she became the first Female to crack the states, gained huge acclaim, easily one of the most respected Soul singers to have ever been alive, perhaps easily one of the best vocalists ever, and became an Icon with her Trademark Behive and heavy make up, plus her Camp Stage movements which immediatley won her a Gay Fanbase that still is active today. |
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#2 |
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..Depends on who you ask, I personally can't stand Bob Dylan and believe he wrote extraordinarily bad music ..but he is seen as an Icon and Legend to millions of others. It all depends on just who you are asking.
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#3 |
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No
Jimi Hendrix- Syd Barrett-Nick Drake-John Martyn-Jeff Buckley All legends to many but didn't sell records by the bucket load. I can imagine some people going who the **** are that lot. |
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#4 |
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Quote:
In my own personal opinion, you do not seen to sell millions of records and have a lot of success to be remembered as an Icon or a Legend.
I am curious to know what others think. An example has to be Dusty Springfield. She had small success but after 2/3 albums, every album that followed was a failure. She hasn't sold millions of records. |
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#5 |
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Quote:
No
Jimi Hendrix- Syd Barrett-Nick Drake-John Martyn-Jeff Buckley All legends to many but didn't sell records by the bucket load. I can imagine some people going who the **** are that lot. |
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#6 |
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Indeed, this is a great post! Sales are no barometer for whether one can be considered a legend or an Icon, there are I believe too many examples of artists that don't or haven't sold millions of records yet they are considered to be Legendary or Iconic, Jeff Buckley bieng one such arist is incredible and ''Grace' is astounding!
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#7 |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Quote:
In my own personal opinion, you do not seen to sell millions of records and have a lot of success to be remembered as an Icon or a Legend.
I am curious to know what others think. An example has to be Dusty Springfield. She had small success but after 2/3 albums, every album that followed was a failure. She hasn't sold millions of records. But.... she became the first Female to crack the states, gained huge acclaim, easily one of the most respected Soul singers to have ever been alive, perhaps easily one of the best vocalists ever, and became an Icon with her Trademark Behive and heavy make up, plus her Camp Stage movements which immediatley won her a Gay Fanbase that still is active today. As you say, her chart history is sketchy but what is important in making her a pop icon was her timeless & unique voice, her 'look', her impeccable choice of material and how her authenticly American her records sounded, which often meant she produced herself in the 60's (unofficially) and gave her the reputation of being 'difficult' in the studio. |
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#8 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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Jack, you are brilliant. This is absolutely true. True talent shines through whatever the level of success.
The 'success' of manufactured acts proves your point. They have not sold as much as they have because they are particularly good, just that those who put them where they are are sucked in by image and hype. The success of the likes of Kylie, Westlife and the Spice Girls proves this, although (apart from Posh) I didn't really mind the Spice Girls as they never took themselves too seriously. The Who are legendary, yet they have never had a chart topper anywhere in the world. Agree 100% on Dusty. Only one chart topper from this immense talent. Yet the Melbourne Muppet has had 6 or 7 or something ridiculous like that. |
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#9 |
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Add Grace Jones and The Velvet Underground to the list too.
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#10 |
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Definitely, Lumiere. These guys, whether or not you are a fan, did things on their own terms and blazed new trails.
Some years ago, I was introduced to the music of Nico from the Velvet Underground. Awesome! |
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#11 |
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A question about icons that hasn't been asked by ilovezenyatta?!?!? I am in SHOCK!!
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#12 |
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Quote:
Indeed, this is a great post! Sales are no barometer for whether one can be considered a legend or an Icon, there are I believe too many examples of artists that don't or haven't sold millions of records yet they are considered to be Legendary or Iconic, Jeff Buckley bieng one such arist is incredible and ''Grace' is astounding!
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#13 |
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Quote:
..Depends on who you ask, I personally can't stand Bob Dylan and believe he wrote extraordinarily bad music ..but he is seen as an Icon and Legend to millions of others. It all depends on just who you are asking.
Cos appreciating his work is not about listening for a catchy three minute soundbite. But understanding the history of where he was, why he was writing what he was, and how he changed and evolved, many many times. Bit like Shakespeare really, once you've cracked it, its literally the best thing you have ever done. |
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#14 |
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I don't think sales are the key to achieveing Icon on Legend Status - though I expect they help when trying to get a message out
I think its often more about how the act impacts on the direction of music in general or society For example The spice girls became icons because of how they impacted on society with their Girl Power message not for the quality or sales of their music
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#15 |
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The fact that Westlife have had a gazillion number ones makes them about as iconic and legendary as Showaddywaddy.
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#16 |
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It depends on which perspective you see it from. From a media point of view, it is very subjective and as soon as a music act takes the world by storm for long enough they're seen as legend/icon/Powerful and whatever label they can think of to big them up. From the general public, it depends on whom you're talking to, their personal connection with these acts, the impact they have on them.
Also we are at different times. And the way to measure success back then was totally different than the way we're doing it now. Talking about Dusty Springfield, for instance, despite not selling much after her first albums, she was still prominent in the 60s. She had her own TV shows, duetted with high profiles of the time and was very influential (if my memory is correct she's responsible for bringing Motown artists to the UK). Her decline properly started in the early 70's when her style went out of fashion as did the 60's Motown/pop sound. So, in that sense, to her contemporaries, I wouldn't be surprised she had already reached this Icon/Legend status. To me, this status is all about (cultural) impact, sense of uniqueness and remaining in people's consciousness years on rather than sales. If I go by this Definition then: BB King Elvis Priestley Otis Redding James Brown Marvin Gaye The Supremes The Beatles The Rolling Stones The Doors Dusty Springfield Michael Jackson Madonna Edith Piaf Charles Aznavour Tina Turner Aretha Franklin Nina Simone Billie Holiday Ella Fitzgerald Grace Jones Chic Mylene Farmer among others are obvious icons/legends to me. |
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#17 |
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Quote:
It depends on which perspective you see it from. From a media point of view, it is very subjective and as soon as a music act takes the world by storm for long enough they're seen as legend/icon/Powerful and whatever label they can think of to big them up. From the general public, it depends on whom you're talking to, their personal connection with these acts, the impact they have on them.
Also we are at different times. And the way to measure success back then was totally different than the way we're doing it now. Talking about Dusty Springfield, for instance, despite not selling much after her first albums, she was still prominent in the 60s. She had her own TV shows, duetted with high profiles of the time and was very influential (if my memory is correct she's responsible for bringing Motown artists to the UK). Her decline properly started in the early 70's when her style went out of fashion as did the 60's Motown/pop sound. So, in that sense, to her contemporaries, I wouldn't be surprised she had already reached this Icon/Legend status. To me, this status is all about (cultural) impact, sense of uniqueness and remaining in people's consciousness years on rather than sales. If I go by this Definition then: BB King Elvis Priestley Otis Redding James Brown Marvin Gaye The Supremes The Beatles The Rolling Stones The Doors Dusty Springfield Michael Jackson Madonna Edith Piaf Charles Aznavour Tina Turner Aretha Franklin Nina Simone Billie Holiday Ella Fitzgerald Grace Jones Chic Mylene Farmer among others are obvious icons/legends to me. |
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#18 |
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Quote:
I agree with your list and the points you make. The problem with the whole term iconic is that it's grossly misused by fans. Someone like Adele for example, is not an icon. She may well be in years to come, but right now she isn't. But you'll get fans talking about the amount of albums she's sold and the awards she's won, as if it's relevant. For me, the amount of records sold needs to be combined with cultural and artistic impact. You can have that without the sales figures, you can't have the sales figures without the impact. Too many people on this forum are guilty of misunderstanding this concept.
). I suppose regarding Adele (who I personally don't regard as an icon), it's not a question of her having massive sales but the fact that those sales are so large that 21 now resides in the top 10 selling albums of all time in Britain. Does inclusion in this list automatically giver her 'icon' status? The one example of a huge selling album by a female artist that comes to mind right now is Jagged Little Pill by Alanis Morrisette which was (and perhaps still is) the biggest selling debut album by a female artist of all time. Is Alanis regarded as an icon or a 90's rock phenomenon? For me it's the latter because she never followed her album up with something that had such a cultural (and sales) impact as her debut. Time will tell I suppose whether we will look back at Adele as an icon or a phenomenon but 'icon' status is definitely there for the taking if she can follow up with a solid, well-received album. |
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#19 |
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Quote:
I agree with your list and the points you make. The problem with the whole term iconic is that it's grossly misused by fans. Someone like Adele for example, is not an icon. She may well be in years to come, but right now she isn't. But you'll get fans talking about the amount of albums she's sold and the awards she's won, as if it's relevant. For me, the amount of records sold needs to be combined with cultural and artistic impact. You can have that without the sales figures, you can't have the sales figures without the impact. Too many people on this forum are guilty of misunderstanding this concept.
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#20 |
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'icon' and 'legend' are two sayings that are over used and or used inappropriately by 'fans of' to boost their worship of their chosen hero.
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#21 |
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Kate bsuh has had number 1 albums etc but only hounds of love and the whole story have passed 2X platinum it's not important just an added bonus if they have critical and commercial success if deserving
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#22 |
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Quote:
It depends on which perspective you see it from. From a media point of view, it is very subjective and as soon as a music act takes the world by storm for long enough they're seen as legend/icon/Powerful and whatever label they can think of to big them up. From the general public, it depends on whom you're talking to, their personal connection with these acts, the impact they have on them.
Also we are at different times. And the way to measure success back then was totally different than the way we're doing it now. Talking about Dusty Springfield, for instance, despite not selling much after her first albums, she was still prominent in the 60s. She had her own TV shows, duetted with high profiles of the time and was very influential (if my memory is correct she's responsible for bringing Motown artists to the UK). Her decline properly started in the early 70's when her style went out of fashion as did the 60's Motown/pop sound. So, in that sense, to her contemporaries, I wouldn't be surprised she had already reached this Icon/Legend status. To me, this status is all about (cultural) impact, sense of uniqueness and remaining in people's consciousness years on rather than sales. If I go by this Definition then: BB King Elvis Priestley Otis Redding James Brown Marvin Gaye The Supremes The Beatles The Rolling Stones The Doors Dusty Springfield Michael Jackson Madonna Edith Piaf Charles Aznavour Tina Turner Aretha Franklin Nina Simone Billie Holiday Ella Fitzgerald Grace Jones Chic Mylene Farmer among others are obvious icons/legends to me.
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#23 |
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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Quote:
I agree with your list and the points you make. The problem with the whole term iconic is that it's grossly misused by fans. Someone like Adele for example, is not an icon. She may well be in years to come, but right now she isn't. But you'll get fans talking about the amount of albums she's sold and the awards she's won, as if it's relevant. For me, the amount of records sold needs to be combined with cultural and artistic impact. You can have that without the sales figures, you can't have the sales figures without the impact. Too many people on this forum are guilty of misunderstanding this concept.
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#24 |
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Quote:
What no Sinatra?
![]() - If I were to include the father then it'd be so unfair not mention the others from the Rat Pack. I see the group as iconic - not sure about each member having this status on their own
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#25 |
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Agree with all the above. Adele sure as hell isn't a legend or icon at all. I wonder if she will be. But I don't know. She hasn't done anything new or incredible besides sell well. I know many soul legends, who haven't sold well at all, ie Etta James.
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).
- If I were to include the father then it'd be so unfair not mention the others from the Rat Pack. I see the group as iconic - not sure about each member having this status on their own