Exactly and just because someone has written a load of songs themselves, doesn't mean they are any good. I was gonna give an example but I'll refrain

But it depends. Mariah had cowriting credits on all her songs, I don't think she ever wrote alone. You can never know. The process is long, wide and varied.

I think the easiest way to decipher the ambiguous "co-writing" credit is to look at the bigger picture.

Do they have any songs where they are the sole songwriter? Have they written for other artists? Do they always have a writing credit? Can they convincingly talk about the writing process? Have they displayed musical prowess? Has anyone contradicted or called out their credits/claims?

Check the whole discography too. Have they written alongside others who normally don't (ie Destiny's child - destiny fulfilled).

They're all very sensible questions.


Well yes, exactly, that's my point. With co-writing you rarely know exactly how did what. I have my opinions but they are just that, my opinions.


It definitely can happen, e.g. with Elvis. There's plenty of evidence of it happening with Beyonce too, e.g. http://www.singersroom.com/news/6039...laims-Producer http://www.rnbmusicblog.com/beyonce-...-bc-jean/1826/
I'm not criticising her for taking songwriting credit by the way, it's a smart business move. And songwriters can probably get more money for a smaller percentage of a Beyonce song than a bigger percentage of someone else's song so it's win-win. I don't consider Beyonce a songwriter or producer but I still enjoy some of her songs but I'll just leave it there as I'm not really interested in turning this into a Beyonce war. This is just my opinion and there ar no definitive facts.

I would be extremely dubious about the whole idea that anyone in the pop world 'writes' their own material. Casual fans may not realize it but the process of creating a single involves numerous people, and the final outcome is a combination of all their inputs.

For most pop music a song will start with a very basic draft by either the talent or a song writer. This will then be expanded on by numerous other professional song writers who are never hear off. This is then given to the main producer who will have just as much impact on the final sound as the original writer. It will then go through various stages of fine tuning and approval from the marketing people before being promoted by the label.

*Co-writes. But nonetheless, she's still on the same level as Adele and Emeli Sandé contribution-wise (only co-writing with 1 or 2 other writers for each song), and judging by her album she did a great job.

With any luck she can be called a 'pop princess' soon, if Too Good To Lose hits the top 5 next week that'll be a big step forward.

It depends on how widely you draw 'the pop world'.
Artists like Elton John, U2, Springsteen, Oasis, Stevie Wonder, Coldplay etc. actually do write their own material. They often have producers who have major input to the recording process but the artist is the prime mover. Admittedly, not many 'Pop Princesses' amongst them!

lol hunny....you do realise that 'co-penning' might mean, writing one bleeding line,....right?? Get real.

I say this as a songwriter myself. A true songwriter does not 'co-write'....they pen the whole thing alone...it's all them...a pop princess is known as a 'pop princess' usually because they have other people collaborating, or doing the bulk of the writing, producing...musicianship themselves...

a true songwriter actually hates when someone else interferes....

I do believe/ hope that adele wrote her own songs since she claimed she does...you've have to have a lot of audacity to claim you wrote a song when really it was a collaboration.....

Don't patronise me 'hunny'. Also, do you really think Ester Dean writes one line to each song she is co-writes. No she doesn't. If you look through most credits she is on, she takes most writing credit. Do you think a lot of R&B artists use Ester Dean for one line? You don't need to tell me to get real, but thanks anyway. You comment has went in one ear, out the other and into the bin hunny

What you on? Lana Del Rey (or moreover, Elizabeth Grant) and Taylor Swift write their own songs. It's probably the biggest criticism levelled against them, as some tracks are messy and sloppy.

lol, i wasn't talking about ester dean (btw, i don't even know who that is but i'll look her up), i was talking about the actual names we hear about....madonna, britney, rihanna etc. I think you got confused by my comment. Btw, I added more to mine....

What a load of rubbish. Everyone knows that some of the best songs come when a bunch of songwriters share ideas together....some of the best songwriters/producers work in groups....especially for pop music.

Dr. Luke who is responsible for a myriad of pop hits works with groups of songwriters, Ke$ha, Ester Dean + Katy Perry included, and of course you have SAW, Stargate, Soulshock and Karlin....the list goes on.

Obviously you aren't a very experienced songwriter if you think that one has to go it alone to be a proper songwriter. Complete nonsense tbh.

re-read my comment. When someone is said to co-write....you have no actual idea what that means in terms of the input from the so called artist. Like i said, a real artist does not want collaborators if they want to convey a message all of their own....it means....we get pieces of people...shadows...lies...NOT the real thing.....

That's really out-dated thinking. You might personally believe that, but I know plenty of "true songwriters" that happily collaborate on songs. Granted, most the time it's after they've had a stab at writing a track themselves and have hit a wall, but regardless.

A track that is co-written is not less worthy than a track written by one person, unless you're really after the pennies, in which case it can be argued if you can even call yourself a "true" songwriter...

I know but I had finished writing my comment by that time. I know what you mean by the popstar label, but I'm not slating Rihanna for the fact she doesn't write all her music but gets the 'Pop Princess' title. I was just venting about the fact a website had called Ester Dean a 'Rihanna Rip-off' considering she's the one who writes most of the music that Rihanna gets. So inturn it's like they're saying Ester is ripping of herself. I know what you mean when you said about co-penning, I know that can mean one line, one word, and you'll be put on the writing credits, but I'm just saying Ester writes most of these songs, records the demo, and then Rihanna gets it.

If you had went on to see I had said that not many 'Pop Princesses' write all of their music. The closest person I could think of in recent years is Taylor Swift who wrote and composed her last album

lol then, we'll agree to disagree....I'm talking lyrically.......you have to know yourself...
but fine...

Doesn't mean the singer and/or songwriters aren't artists.

There really isn't any discussion to be had here.

I mean, let's extend your logic into another art form - film. Are you telling me that a filmmaker cannot call themselves an artist unless he or she wrote the screenplay, directed the film, produced it and maybe even starred in it?

...

like i said, i was not talking about ester dean....i don't know who she is lol....

I would say she is the ONLY major female artist for many, many years who has written a total album on her own.

If you've ever listened to the charts, chances are you've heard at least 1 song written by her.....she's almost a go-to for hits....which is why Rihanna, Katy, Nicki etc keep paying her bills

Well then why are you singling my comment out? Most of my comment was to do with Ester Dean, then I said Lana wrote most of her album, I didn't say she wrote it all, I'm fully aware it's co-wrote but she takes most writing credits on the album, and then Taylor Swift had wrote her last album solely

i would love to think that i can write my own lyrics, play the instruments....and possibly the only help would be in the production department since i don't own a studio. I do think that an artist should be curious/talented/inspired enough to have a hand at more than one artform....especially if those artforms are interconnected.yes. I'm not saying that spielberg is a fraud lol.....I'm saying....that any artist we can genuinely learn something from...and be taken into a different world by...must by definition have the capacity to do something other than just to simply sing a song, or add two lines to one. You get me??

I agree. I'm not a fan of Taylor, but she does write most of her songs solely, or at least her last album was all wrote by her and I commend her for it. I think she's the kind of artist who appreciates being given the opportunity to write her album

Maybe they cant articulate it the way another songwriter could so they get help, or maybe the songwriter just gets all the lyrics right and they suit the message the singer was trying to convey.