[joey319926]

I have a yamaha rx-v461dab and it isn't loud enough

will this be any better?
http://www.petertyson.co.uk/ebuttonz...05.shtml?fshop

any advice please?

[chrisjr]

You probably won't notice any difference.

For a kick off even if the specs can be believed the difference between 100 and 130 watts isn't that great. And if you factor in the fact that neither amp is likely to deliver anything close to that in the real world the difference is even smaller.

The reason for that is that most makers quote the maximum power any one channel can deliver on it's own with no others powered up. So you get 100+ watts per channel, ie 500W total, but only a 300W power supply. Which does not add up! Real world all channels giving it some and you might get 50W each on a good day!

If you really want to make some noise you will need to go up the power range rather more than you might think. Our ears work in a weird way and simply doubling the power out of a system does not double the volume. So you might need something with even more power to notice the difference.

Then consider how efficiently the speakers convert electrical energy into sound energy. A 1% efficient speaker only converts 1W out of every 100 into noise. So it would be quieter on a 100W amp than a 60% efficient speaker on a 10W amp! Extreme examples I know but just goes to show that raw specs mean sod all really. No substitute for those flappy bits of skin either side of your head, ie go and listen and hear for yourself what the difference is.

Mind you I've got a predecessor of the 509 in that Onkyo system that is similarly spec'ed in terms of noise production. If I cranked mine up to 11 the neighbours two streets down would be banging on the door never mind those next door!

[Deacon1972]

For raw power you'll need to look at power amps, big amplifiers with large heat sinks, but to be honest and from someone who has owned a few in the past, you won't be able to use it to it's full potential, especially if you have neighbours. Having it too loud becomes uncomfortable after a while.

My system will kick out 115db at peak times during certain soundtracks at reference level, I doubt you would listen at that level for everything you watch.

If you want decent volume look for something that's around 100-120 watts but has it's own amp driving each channel, look for something that is THX certified, this way the figures given are to be trusted as they have to come up to spec to get the THX certification, they normaly give distortion/clipping values too. Amps are only part of the system, you'll need to choose your speakers carefully too, no good having an amp producing good power if the speakers run out of steam.

Something that can reach high db levels but still regains very good sound quality won't come cheap, you'll easily get something much cheaper that goes loud but it will sound like a bag of nails.

[cnbcwatcher]

I certainly hope you have a detached house, otherwise the whole street might end up complaining about it!

[Lordy Lordy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by joey319926

I have a yamaha rx-v461dab and it isn't loud enough

will this be any better?
http://www.petertyson.co.uk/ebuttonz...05.shtml?fshop

any advice please?

Joey, tell us where you live so we can avoid the area

[Chris Frost]

The problem joey319926 faces isn't just about amplifier power. Its mostly about speaker sensitivity (dB) and also about room size.

Budget speakers are horribly inefficient at turning amplifier watts in to sound. Most small satellite speakers in home cinema kits will have a sensitivity of less than 80-82dB. Compare that to budget Hi-Fi speakers at 85-86dB.

The 3-6dB difference makes those Hi-Fi speakers produce between 2x and 4x the volume for the same amount of amplifier Watts.

The speakers I use for my home cinema rig are 91-92dB. Compared to the budget satellites that's a difference of up to 12dB. Each 3dB is a doubling in loudness. For the same power my speakers will produce 16x the loudness. However, our ears don't perceive loudness as a linear progression. There's a law of diminishing returns. It's louder, but doesn't feel 16x louder. That's why changing from one amp to another with broadly similar wattages won't make a massive difference in loudness.

Room size plays a large part in perceived loudness too. Bigger rooms require a lot more power to produce the same loudness as smaller rooms.


The best advice for joey319926 is to look for more efficient speakers. Sensitivity costs money to produce though, so getting efficient speakers won't come cheap. Some secondhand Q Acoustics 1000-series would be a reasonable start. The 1010i satellites are 86dB. Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 are 90dB - more than double the sensitivity, but also more than double the cost new.

After sorting the speakers then look at changing the amp. All of this though will cost significantly more than the £500'ish budget for the Onkyo HTS6405 kit.

[gomezz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

Budget speakers are horribly inefficient at turning amplifier watts in to sound.

I thought it was generally the other way round. Which is why the best speakers need more powerful amps to be able to drive them to the same volume level.

[pocatello]

Tiny speakers:P

You need power AND size if you want to do it right.

What you linked are a nice set of computer speakers. You might invest in better speakers for use with your original receiver. Quality of construction, which tends to mean heft and size matter, turning energy into sound still requires size for any conventional speaker.

[njp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisjr

The reason for that is that most makers quote the maximum power any one channel can deliver on it's own with no others powered up.

Do they? All the specs I've looked at quote continuous power with two channels fully driven. It is indeed a rare AV amplifier that allows all channels to be fully driven at the rated power, but one channel just seems mean! And of course unless you like playing a sine wave at full volume through all your speakers, it's a rare sound track that would require all channels to deliver the rated power simultaneously.

You are right about speaker efficiency though, and I suspect that's where the OP should be looking to upgrade. Unless he lives in a barn or something.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomezz

I thought it was generally the other way round. Which is why the best speakers need more powerful amps to be able to drive them to the same volume level.

Are you thinking of the ohms rating?

[grahamlthompson]

Most of the power required to produce high levels of sound is at the low frequency end of the spectrum. Small sealed speakers are inefficient at the low frequency end, if the OP's amp has a dedicated subwoofer output adding a self powered subwoofer should make a significant difference to the sound. I have a Denon system feeding KEF speakers capable of 6 x 170W, without the 250W sub it still sounds extremely flat. The new Sony surround sound headphones with built in DD and DTS (MDR - DS6500) are capable of generating a pretty convincing sound stage without disturbing the better halves beauty sleep. (Not Cheap from about £180.00 but cheaper than a new amp and speakers)

[chrisjr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by njp

Do they? All the specs I've looked at quote continuous power with two channels fully driven. It is indeed a rare AV amplifier that allows all channels to be fully driven at the rated power, but one channel just seems mean! And of course unless you like playing a sine wave at full volume through all your speakers, it's a rare sound track that would require all channels to deliver the rated power simultaneously.

You are right about speaker efficiency though, and I suspect that's where the OP should be looking to upgrade. Unless he lives in a barn or something.

Virtually every system spec sheet I've looked at has the power rating for a single channel powered at a time. Certainly on the all in one systems and not even a "proper" maker like Onkyo is above that trick.

So you get the ludicrous situation of a system specified at 1000W total with a 300W power supply! Simply because the manufacturer has stated the power for one speaker only driven then multiplied it by 5 to get a nice big number to impress the uninitiated. Quietly hoping no-one will spot the obvious flaw in the specs.

But as you say in the real world that probably doesn't matter as it is unlikely the amp will be anywhere near needing to produce it's rated power for long periods. In fact I suspect many people may be surprised just how few watts the system is putting out. It could be just single figures per channel at a reasonable domestic listening level!

[gomezz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

Are you thinking of the ohms rating?

No.

[gemma-the-husky]

how loud do you want to go?

it's a different sound, but headphones would work out cheaper.

and note, that just loud isn't nice. you need good quality loud. I am no expert but high end source, amps, speakers, cables, stands. hi-fi experts will know more.

[Glawster2002]

Your ears detect sound as changes in pressure. Therefore the greater the pressure change of the sound wave, the louder the sound appears to be. As others have already said, the detection of sound pressure isn't linear it is more logarithmic.

For that reason it is no accident more and more Hi-fi and AV systems now show the sound level in dB rather than as a simple linear scale as they used to.

So in this situation, if you need more volume, you have two options:

1. increase the power feeding the speakers.
2. Increase the efficiency of the pressure out from the speakers.

To be honest I would look at the second option first because to some extent the first option is dictated by the second!

Like Chris my Home Cinema speakers have a sensitivity of 90 dB but they aren't generally cheap!

If you are interested, I have some of these... Sunfire XT Series. They are expensive, but they do mean I can drive them with any AV amp I wish!

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomezz

No.

Why confused - what you were describing was ohms rating where lower ohm speakers draw more power to get to a said db level, whereas the higher the sensitivity the less power is drawn, given that the speakers are of the same ohm rating.

[gomezz]

No I was not describing that. The efficiency of a speaker is not based on its notional impedance.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomezz

No I was not describing that. The efficiency of a speaker is not based on its notional impedance.

Fair enough - it was just your reference to 'more powerful amps' why I thought you were referring to ohms not sensitivity.

[grahamlthompson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

Why confused - what you were describing was ohms rating where lower ohm speakers draw more power to get to a said db level, whereas the higher the sensitivity the less power is drawn, given that the speakers are of the same ohm rating.

That's simply not true. AV amps can deliver more current into a lower impedance load so generally will deliver more power. Eg Denon 4306 130W into 8 ohms and 170W into 6 ohms. The conversion efficiency of the electrical input power to sound is entirely unrelated to the speaker impedance. Only if the lower imdedance speakers were more efficient would they sound louder.

A large Bass reflex speaker will deliver really high volumes from a relatively low power amplifier. HIfi stereo amplifiers of 20-30W output are more than adequate.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

That's simply not true. AV amps can deliver more current into a lower impedance load so generally will deliver more power. Eg Denon 4306 130W into 8 ohms and 170W into 6 ohms. The conversion efficiency of the electrical input power to sound is entirely unrelated to the speaker impedance. Only if the lower imdedance speakers were more efficient would they sound louder.

A large Bass reflex speaker will deliver really high volumes from a relatively low power amplifier. HIfi stereo amplifiers of 20-30W output are more than adequate.

What I was trying to say was.........

I understood it that to run lower ohm speakers the amp works harder. Most amps are comfortable with 6-8ohm speakers, but will run much harder and hotter when say 4ohm speakers are connected.

Run a 4ohm speaker with a sensitivity of 90db and one that was 8ohm and a sensitivity of 90db the amp would need to work harder and run hotter with the 4ohm speaker than the 8ohm speaker, even though the sensitivity is the same - is that correct?

EDIT

In respect of the Denon figures you mentioned 130@8ohms and 170@6ohms, would it be correct that the speaker that would sound the loudest would be the one with the highest sensitivity rating, not simply the one with the highest wattage?

[chrisjr]

Since Power equals the square of the current multiplied by the resistance of the load it follows that for a fixed power level more current has to be dumped into a lower resistance load than a high resistance one.

So yes the amp could well be more stressed working into a low impedance speaker. Especially if the power supply and power stages of the amp can't handle the extra current demand.

Which speaker sounds loudest is a combination of sensitivity and wattage. if you feed exactly the same wattage into two speakers then the one that is more efficient will sound louder. But how loud you can ultimately make a speaker go is determined by how much power it can take.

[grahamlthompson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisjr

Since Power equals the square of the current multiplied by the resistance of the load it follows that for a fixed power level more current has to be dumped into a lower resistance load than a high resistance one.

So yes the amp could well be more stressed working into a low impedance speaker. Especially if the power supply and power stages of the amp can't handle the extra current demand.

Which speaker sounds loudest is a combination of sensitivity and wattage. if you feed exactly the same wattage into two speakers then the one that is more efficient will sound louder. But how loud you can ultimately make a speaker go is determined by how much power it can take.

True but the quoted value for a loudspeaker is surely impedance not resistance. A 6 ohm speaker may have less, the same or a higher resistance than an 8 ohm speaker depending on the inductive reactance.

The average power input would be given by integrating Voltage x Current x Cosine of the angle between Voltage and Current over a given time.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

True but the quoted value for a loudspeaker is surely impedance not resistance. A 6 ohm speaker may have less, the same or a higher resistance than an 8 ohm speaker depending on the inductive reactance.

Can a 6ohm speaker have a higher resistance than a 8ohm speaker, I didn't think it could under ohms law.

[grahamlthompson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

Can a 6ohm speaker have a higher resistance than a 8ohm speaker, I didn't think it could under ohms law.

You misunderstand take a hypothetical loadspeaker with a resistance of 8 ohms and an inductive reactance of 1 Ohm.
It's actual impedance will be 8.06 ohms. A loudspeaker with a 6ohm resistance and a inductive reactance of 10ohms will have a quoted impedance of 11.66ohms.

The latter would draw less current if fed by a ac voltage despite having a lower resistance.

Quoting a speaker by it's DC resistance would be pointless.

Loudspeakers are driven by an alternating voltage and therefore draw an alternating current not DC. The speaker cone moves both backwards and forwards from it's unpowered resting position.

[njp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

Can a 6ohm speaker have a higher resistance than a 8ohm speaker, I didn't think it could under ohms law.

It's the impedance that matters, not the DC resistance, and this can vary wildly with frequency, depending on the design of the crossover network. That's why the rated speaker impedance is usually described as nominal. So yes, it's perfectly possible for a nominally 6 ohm speaker to have a higher impedance at a particular frequency than a nominally 8 ohm speaker.