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Horse Racing on Terrestrial TV
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casinoman13
17-09-2013
Sorry to put this question on here rather than just start another thread but.....did the BBC cover the 1978 Derby in which Shirley Heights won in dramatic fashion?

Ive on ever heard John Penny's commentary for this race, the 1977 I heard Peter O'Sullevan's commentary but not 78.
Darren Lethem
17-09-2013
Originally Posted by casinoman13:
“Sorry to put this question on here rather than just start another thread but.....did the BBC cover the 1978 Derby in which Shirley Heights won in dramatic fashion?

Ive on ever heard John Penny's commentary for this race, the 1977 I heard Peter O'Sullevan's commentary but not 78.”

I thought ITV had it then for a time
Glenn A
17-09-2013
The BBC and ITV showed it together in 1978/79, then the rights went to ITV in 1980 and then ITV and Channel 4 showed it together from 1984 to 1988.
david16
17-09-2013
Originally Posted by RobSmithS:
“(apologies as this isn't quite Terrestial TV but thought it most convenient to post in!)

There has been some developments with Racing UK (now offered together with ATR as "The Racing Pack" to commercial premises excluding betting premises).

http://www.sportbusiness.com/tv-spor...ercial-service

Elsewhere on another thread here on the DS forums a while back a few people were wondering how many residential customers subscribe to Racing UK and that figure is given as 45,000 in this article (and this new deal reported in tv sports markets is for commercial only).”

At The Races is really going to be the poor relations now when it comes to live British horse racing with only low grade British horse racing i.e. grades D to H to show. Yes they will still have the big irish meetings on the channel but it will be a much poorer channel now.

While Ascot is on At The Races, at big meetings once terrestrial goes of air there are still plenty of interesting races with group 1 races and big handicaps attracting those who have access to the channel who watched earlier on channel 4.

Also the attractive Friday's at Ascot that are no longer broadcast on terrestrial, At The Races were attracting those same horse racing fans with access to the channel who once would have watched 4 races live on the BBC (when they held the rights) and then the rest after 4pm.

Next year if you still want to watch racing from Ascot that is not on terrestrial you are going to have to fork out an extortionate £20 per month.

At the races is currently attractive for those who cannot afford to fork out £20 per month with Ascot coverage and the big irish meetings. Without Ascot next year there will only be the big Irish meetings to attract viewers. I doubt At The Races will attract the same number of viewers without Ascot as a major selling point even if there's the Irish Derby, Irish Grand National, Irish Champion Stakes etc.
casinoman13
17-09-2013
Originally Posted by Glenn A:
“The BBC and ITV showed it together in 1978/79, then the rights went to ITV in 1980 and then ITV and Channel 4 showed it together from 1984 to 1988.”

Excellent thanks Glenn, I knew the Henbit derby was the first to be screened by ITV only but thought they may of been some kind of dispute as I could find nothing showing O'Sullevans commentary for that race in 78, not on Youtube at least.

Is there any link anywhere for O'Sullevans commentary?.
steveh31
17-09-2013
Originally Posted by Dancc:
“45,000 seems a decent number of subscribers for RUK. Higher than I expected.”

I read that at the beginning RUK needed 30,000 to break even.

In the scheme of things 45,000 x £20 fee is only £900,000 if you think of the fees of the presenters, the costs of running the channel it isn't a lot that's why they have relied more on advertising.

But as the channel is owned by the Jockey Club the profits from the big courses will more than pay for the channel.
david16
17-09-2013
Channel 4 and previously BBC give you the impression that they cannot wait to say goodbye soon after the last race.

Do channel 4 have to pay transmission fees to the jockey club for the next race if they are still on air after a certain time even if they are not covering the next race or any of the other remaining races?
RobinCarmody
17-09-2013
Originally Posted by casinoman13:
“Sorry to put this question on here rather than just start another thread but.....did the BBC cover the 1978 Derby in which Shirley Heights won in dramatic fashion?

Ive on ever heard John Penny's commentary for this race, the 1977 I heard Peter O'Sullevan's commentary but not 78.”

Despite what others may have claimed in this thread, the BBC did *not* show the 1978 Epsom Derby.

The Derby was televised as a one-off in 1948, when it was being run on Saturdays so as to maximise attendance at work during the austerity period. Subsequently, the Epsom authorities declared that commentary on the race would be sound-only, but relented in 1960. At that point, ITV signed a contract with the racecourse which gave it exclusive coverage of all other races at the Derby meeting and at other Epsom fixtures, but because the Derby was considered a "national event" which could not be exclusive to either channel, the BBC was allowed to show it as well, and provided coverage of the Derby alone every year from 1960 to 1974, with the rest of the meeting being on ITV only.

(The other "national events" in the pre-multichannel era were the FA Cup Final, which was live on both channels in 1956 and then every year from 1958 to 1988, Wimbledon, which ITV exercised its right to show until 1968 but then sensibly backed out of when Thames & LWT took over, the Test Matches, which ITV only ever showed once, when the launch of Yorkshire Television coincided with the last two days of the 1968 Headingley Test, the Grand National, which ITV *could* have simulcast with the BBC had it wanted to but never did, and the Boat Race, which ITV sensibly, no doubt in large part for class reasons, never bothered to simulcast with the BBC.)

In 1975, when the BBC had to make major financial cutbacks, it decided that the Derby could easily go as it would be live on another channel at the same time, and the BBC did not show the race in 1975 or 1976. The BBC showed it again in 1977, partially because its financial position had recovered somewhat and partially because it was associated with the Silver Jubilee. But it *did not* show the Derby in 1978, possibly in part because the World Cup was also being covered in tandem with ITV at the same point. You've never heard the Peter O'Sullevan commentary on this race because he quite simply didn't do one. Listings in the Glasgow Herald of 7th June 1978 (presumably available for free on Google News) should confirm this.

The BBC showed the Derby again in 1979, in part because it was the 200th running. In 1980, however, it again had to make severe cutbacks - which almost saw the abandonment of *all* its racing coverage - and the Derby was duly dropped. In 2001, after the course had been associated with ITV and Channel 4 for forty years, the BBC would sign a contract with Epsom - something it had never had before - and began to show all the other races at the meeting (the Oaks, Coronation Cup etc. had never been on the BBC before). That continued until 2012, as we know.
James_Monnelly
17-09-2013
The BBC will probably ditch its last remaining horse racing rights and spend it on Athletics as it seems to cream itself over it these days!
Darren Lethem
17-09-2013
Originally Posted by david16:
“At The Races is really going to be the poor relations now when it comes to live British horse racing with only low grade British horse racing i.e. grades D to H to show. Yes they will still have the big irish meetings on the channel but it will be a much poorer channel now.

While Ascot is on At The Races, at big meetings once terrestrial goes of air there are still plenty of interesting races with group 1 races and big handicaps attracting those who have access to the channel who watched earlier on channel 4.

Also the attractive Friday's at Ascot that are no longer broadcast on terrestrial, At The Races were attracting those same horse racing fans with access to the channel who once would have watched 4 races live on the BBC (when they held the rights) and then the rest after 4pm.

Next year if you still want to watch racing from Ascot that is not on terrestrial you are going to have to fork out an extortionate £20 per month.

At the races is currently attractive for those who cannot afford to fork out £20 per month with Ascot coverage and the big irish meetings. Without Ascot next year there will only be the big Irish meetings to attract viewers. I doubt At The Races will attract the same number of viewers without Ascot as a major selling point even if there's the Irish Derby, Irish Grand National, Irish Champion Stakes etc.”

ATR has Doncaster.
ftv
17-09-2013
The BBC televised the Derby in June, 1938, the first horse race in the world to be shown on TV.
pakokelso93
17-09-2013
Originally Posted by James_Monnelly:
“The BBC will probably ditch its last remaining horse racing rights”

Err your too late there...
THOMO
17-09-2013
Originally Posted by James_Monnelly:
“The BBC will probably ditch its last remaining horse racing rights and spend it on Athletics as it seems to cream itself over it these days!”

Channel 4 has had exclusive rights to terrestrial free to air racing since January 1st of this year. So as another poster said your abit late
Ian.
alanrollins
17-09-2013
Originally Posted by Darren Lethem:
“ATR has Doncaster.”

Exactly, and its choice of Irish, French and American racing is superb too.

Most of Ascots group and graded races are televised anyway.
casinoman13
17-09-2013
Originally Posted by RobinCarmody:
“Despite what others may have claimed in this thread, the BBC did *not* show the 1978 Epsom Derby.

The Derby was televised as a one-off in 1948, when it was being run on Saturdays so as to maximise attendance at work during the austerity period. Subsequently, the Epsom authorities declared that commentary on the race would be sound-only, but relented in 1960. At that point, ITV signed a contract with the racecourse which gave it exclusive coverage of all other races at the Derby meeting and at other Epsom fixtures, but because the Derby was considered a "national event" which could not be exclusive to either channel, the BBC was allowed to show it as well, and provided coverage of the Derby alone every year from 1960 to 1974, with the rest of the meeting being on ITV only.

(The other "national events" in the pre-multichannel era were the FA Cup Final, which was live on both channels in 1956 and then every year from 1958 to 1988, Wimbledon, which ITV exercised its right to show until 1968 but then sensibly backed out of when Thames & LWT took over, the Test Matches, which ITV only ever showed once, when the launch of Yorkshire Television coincided with the last two days of the 1968 Headingley Test, the Grand National, which ITV *could* have simulcast with the BBC had it wanted to but never did, and the Boat Race, which ITV sensibly, no doubt in large part for class reasons, never bothered to simulcast with the BBC.)

In 1975, when the BBC had to make major financial cutbacks, it decided that the Derby could easily go as it would be live on another channel at the same time, and the BBC did not show the race in 1975 or 1976. The BBC showed it again in 1977, partially because its financial position had recovered somewhat and partially because it was associated with the Silver Jubilee. But it *did not* show the Derby in 1978, possibly in part because the World Cup was also being covered in tandem with ITV at the same point. You've never heard the Peter O'Sullevan commentary on this race because he quite simply didn't do one. Listings in the Glasgow Herald of 7th June 1978 (presumably available for free on Google News) should confirm this.

The BBC showed the Derby again in 1979, in part because it was the 200th running. In 1980, however, it again had to make severe cutbacks - which almost saw the abandonment of *all* its racing coverage - and the Derby was duly dropped. In 2001, after the course had been associated with ITV and Channel 4 for forty years, the BBC would sign a contract with Epsom - something it had never had before - and began to show all the other races at the meeting (the Oaks, Coronation Cup etc. had never been on the BBC before). That continued until 2012, as we know.”

Great explanation Robin and thank you....explains nicely why I could never hear O'Sullevan on the 78 Derby,perhaps one of the closest in the period.
ftv
17-09-2013
See my post #661
RobinCarmody
17-09-2013
I did know that the Derby was televised pre-WW2, but I didn't know exactly when. I do have full details of all coverage from 1945 onwards.
Glenn A
17-09-2013
interesting how racing contracts worked in the seventies. ITV had all the flat classics plus secondary meetings at smaller courses at weekends to make up the ITV Seven, the BBC mostly concentrated on National Hunt and the bigger weekday flat meetings like Royal Ascot and Glorious Goodwood.
However, everything would change in 1984-85 when ITV gradually moved all its racing coverage to Channel 4 and pulled out of racing. Seemingly they wanted to move on from World of Sport, which was cancelled at the same time, and the ITV Seven. Also the absence of weekday racing meant Australian soaps started to fill the afternoon schedules.
david16
17-09-2013
Originally Posted by Glenn A:
“interesting how racing contracts worked in the seventies. ITV had all the flat classics plus secondary meetings at smaller courses at weekends to make up the ITV seven, the BBC mostly concentrated on National Hunt and the bigger weekday flat meetings like Royal Ascot and Glorious Goodwood.
However, everything would change in 1984-85 when ITV gradually moved all
its racing coverage to Channel 4 and pulled out of racing. Seemingly
they wanted to move on from World of Sport, which was cancelled at the
same time, and the ITV Seven. Also the absence of weekday racing meant
Australian soaps started to fill the afternoon schedules.”

How full were the stands at venues like Beverley, Newton Abbott, Market Rasen, Ripon and Salisbury when World of sport did their ITV Seven.
Darren Lethem
18-09-2013
Originally Posted by david16:
“How full were the stands at venues like Beverley, Newton Abbott, Market Rasen, Ripon and Salisbury when World of sport did their ITV Seven.”

Beverley is my local track and any Saturday meeting there is absolutely packed. I have been to a good number of tracks around the country, some big some small, and out of the smaller ones Beverley does get a very good attendance. Funnily I am going next Tuesday as it is the season finale there.
Glenn A
18-09-2013
Originally Posted by david16:
“How full were the stands at venues like Beverley, Newton Abbott, Market Rasen, Ripon and Salisbury when World of sport did their ITV Seven.”

If the weather is good, the turnout is high. I've been to Carlisle, which very occasionally appears on Channel 4, on an Easter Saturday and 10,000 people have turned up.
david16
18-09-2013
Originally Posted by Glenn A:
“If the weather is good, the turnout is high. I've been to Carlisle, which very occasionally appears on Channel 4, on an Easter Saturday and 10,000 people have turned up.”

I would assume it was still over the sticks then.
Armagideon Time
06-10-2013
Today C4 are covering the Arc de Triomphe meeting at Longchamp for the first time since 2001, albeit with a small team; only Clare Balding, Nick Luck and Mick Fitzgerald will be there, along with Simon Holt commentating.

This may well be down to budgeting reasons; IIRC, C4 signed a deal with the French racing authorities to cover the Arc for this year - and the next couple of years at least - about 6 months ago, after budgets had been set. This time next year, there may be a couple more bodies at least; Tanya Stevenson for the betting and one of Graham Cunningham and Jim McGrath.
steveh31
06-10-2013
Originally Posted by Armagideon Time:
“Today C4 are covering the Arc de Triomphe meeting at Longchamp for the first time since 2001, albeit with a small team; only Clare Balding, Nick Luck and Mick Fitzgerald will be there, along with Simon Holt commentating.

This may well be down to budgeting reasons; IIRC, C4 signed a deal with the French racing authorities to cover the Arc for this year - and the next couple of years at least - about 6 months ago, after budgets had been set. This time next year, there may be a couple more bodies at least; Tanya Stevenson for the betting and one of Graham Cunningham and Jim McGrath.”

Why do you want more people all you need is a presenter and a person to interact with and a commentator done.
Armagideon Time
06-10-2013
Originally Posted by steveh31:
“Why do you want more people all you need is a presenter and a person to interact with and a commentator done.”

As this is Europe's premier flat race meeting in the autumn, you'd want adequate resources to cover all bases, for instance, you'd normally have someone - like Tanya - covering the betting.

Put it this way, for the Derby or even upcoming, Champions Day at Ascot on Saturday week, would you have your C4 team being just Balding, Luck, Fitzgerald and Holt only?
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