Are cross network charges fair?

Think about it, when chosing a mobile and network it should be all to suit yourself and no-one else.

Therefore why should you be charged extra for calling people on other networks? It is not your fault someone you are calling is on a different network to you.

Are international charges fair? Its not my fault my mate has emigrated to new Zealand ...... : )

c4rv · 17-03-2012, 12:50

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Think about it, when chosing a mobile and network it should be all to suit yourself and no-one else.

Therefore why should you be charged extra for calling people on other networks? It is not your fault someone you are calling is on a different network to you.

Think of it this way, calling people on other networks is the standard price, calling people on your own network is subsidised.

Thine Wonk · 17-03-2012, 19:12

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Originally Posted by stephen122333

Think about it, when chosing a mobile and network it should be all to suit yourself and no-one else.

Therefore why should you be charged extra for calling people on other networks? It is not your fault someone you are calling is on a different network to you.

You wish to call the person on another network, if you wish to visit a friend in Glasgow, or a friend that's 5 minutes away then is it the railway's fault that you and your friend have chosen to live in those locations, it costs them more to take you to a place further away.

Logically when you call a remote network it costs more as the network has to pay termination charges. Same network calls are subsidised by the network at below cost to tempt family members to buy all their contracts with the same provider, it's basically a sales tool.

Darth-Habib · 17-03-2012, 19:46

I remember the good old days when I took out my first contract in 1997, that your inclusive minutes only applied to the people on the same network.

Peak cross network calls were 50p per minute.

stephen122333 · 17-03-2012, 21:19

Yes, I think they are fair (in principle) may be a bit high, but then everything costs more than it should. In the past my self and a friend both movd on to the same network to benifit of the cheap/free calls (which of course what the network wanted).

Simon Rodgers · 18-03-2012, 02:54

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Yes, I think they are fair (in principle) may be a bit high, but then everything costs more than it should. In the past my self and a friend both movd on to the same network to benifit of the cheap/free calls (which of course what the network wanted).

True but how is a network supposed to win your custom IF the people you call are on other networks? Where is the competition and incentives to go for one network if your contacts have already chosen theirs and you feel forced to join a network you don't want?

Simon Rodgers · 18-03-2012, 02:55

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Originally Posted by Stuart_h

Are international charges fair? Its not my fault my mate has emigrated to new Zealand ...... : )

In some cases you may find it is cheaper to call New Zealand than a UK mobile on a different network (and no, I'm not joking!)

Daveoc64 · 18-03-2012, 03:17

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True but how is a network supposed to win your custom IF the people you call are on other networks? Where is the competition and incentives to go for one network if your contacts have already chosen theirs and you feel forced to join a network you don't want?

Do these things really matter these days?

Most people will have an allowance that covers calls/texts to any network, so it's not really that important to be on the same network anymore.

Simon Rodgers · 18-03-2012, 03:30

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Originally Posted by legends wear 7

Do these things really matter these days?

Most people will have an allowance that covers calls/texts to any network, so it's not really that important to be on the same network anymore.

They can do. Not everyone has these deals, espcially those on PAYG.

natbike · 18-03-2012, 12:30

I think what would be more useful is notification of what network you are calling, but if you go that far, I think we could have cost notifications on all calls. Its relatively easy for a network to determine if a call is on net.

legends wear 7 · 18-03-2012, 20:48

I curious Simon, who do you think should pick up the additional cost of terminating a call on another network?

Daveoc64 · 18-03-2012, 23:21

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I curious Simon, who do you think should pick up the additional cost of terminating a call on another network?

The charges are artificial, so I don't see why they couldn't be dropped.

As I mentioned earlier, with people these days getting bundles of hundreds or thousands of minutes to any network per month, the networks seem happy to bear the "additional cost" of cross network calls.

flagpole · 19-03-2012, 10:00

most bizarre thread.

is it fair that if i want to see my friend in sydney i have to pay ~£1000 to fly there? shouldn't the ticket cost the same as a zone 1 tube ticket?

Simon Rodgers · 21-03-2012, 14:29

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most bizarre thread.

is it fair that if i want to see my friend in sydney i have to pay ~£1000 to fly there? shouldn't the ticket cost the same as a zone 1 tube ticket?

There would be more expenditure incurred in doing this so naturally the cost would have to be passed onto you. This does not appear to happen with mobile calls however they appear to want to charge for them all the same.

Simon Rodgers · 21-03-2012, 14:30

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The charges are artificial, so I don't see why they couldn't be dropped.

As I mentioned earlier, with people these days getting bundles of hundreds or thousands of minutes to any network per month, the networks seem happy to bear the "additional cost" of cross network calls.

Thank you.
Why can't OFCOM investigate these?

Daveoc64 · 21-03-2012, 16:24

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Thank you.
Why can't OFCOM investigate these?

They already have done.

They've concluded that the "call termination rates" charged by each operator will be capped

http://media.ofcom.org.uk/analysts/regulated-prices/

(Scroll down to "Mobile Termination Rates")

flagpole · 21-03-2012, 16:28

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There would be more expenditure incurred in doing this so naturally the cost would have to be passed onto you. This does not appear to happen with mobile calls however they appear to want to charge for them all the same.

there certainly are more cost to a mobile network when you call someone on another network.

flagpole · 21-03-2012, 16:33

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As I mentioned earlier, with people these days getting bundles of hundreds or thousands of minutes to any network per month, the networks seem happy to bear the "additional cost" of cross network calls.

they are not really bearing the cost they are just averaging it out for simplicity. if you get 500 minutes you'll probably only use 300, of those they'll be made up of a mixture of land line, home and cross network. additionally you will also receive some calls too.

if everyone on say vodafone with bundled minutes were to use 100% of them to call someone on 3 then things would have to change.

Daveoc64 · 21-03-2012, 17:09

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they are not really bearing the cost they are just averaging it out for simplicity. if you get 500 minutes you'll probably only use 300, of those they'll be made up of a mixture of land line, home and cross network. additionally you will also receive some calls too.

if everyone on say vodafone with bundled minutes were to use 100% of them to call someone on 3 then things would have to change.

Simple maths suggests that networks ARE bearing the costs.

Given that each network has a different proportion of the market, the system has traditionally favoured the largest networks (i.e O2 and Vodafone).

Now that Everything Everywhere exists, T-Mobile and Orange are in an even better situation.

With the caps coming into effect, there really shouldn't be any need to charge extra for cross network calls - certainly not as much as the networks are currently doing.

flagpole · 21-03-2012, 17:53

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Simple maths suggests that networks ARE bearing the costs.

Given that each network has a different proportion of the market, the system has traditionally favoured the largest networks (i.e O2 and Vodafone).

Now that Everything Everywhere exists, T-Mobile and Orange are in an even better situation.

With the caps coming into effect, there really shouldn't be any need to charge extra for cross network calls - certainly not as much as the networks are currently doing.

i have no wish to get into an argument but i think you need to check your simple maths. If a network only had one customer they would have to pay termination charges on every call they made. That's your logic right? But the network would also make the termination charge on every call they received. Obviously this washes out as on average as many calls are made as received.

natbike · 22-03-2012, 03:46

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Originally Posted by natbike

But the network would also make the termination charge on every call they received. Obviously this washes out as on average as many calls are made as received.

This is not true according to H3G, on average their users call out for nearly twice as many minutes as they receive.

Different users have different call profiles. I make more than I receive because a lot of the people I call don't have enough minutes to spare, where as I do.

flagpole · 22-03-2012, 08:46

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This is not true according to H3G, on average their users call out for nearly twice as many minutes as they receive.

Different users have different call profiles. I make more than I receive because a lot of the people I call don't have enough minutes to spare, where as I do.

the only point i'm making. the only point. is that the assertion that termination charges business model benefits the network with the greater proportion of the market is wrong and that the simple mathematical model laid out in the post above misses half the transaction.

i'm not sure what you or your mates do is strictly relevant. but you should ask them who it is that they're using their minutes on that isn't you.

Daveoc64 · 22-03-2012, 17:36

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the only point i'm making. the only point. is that the assertion that termination charges business model benefits the network with the greater proportion of the market is wrong and that the simple mathematical model laid out in the post above misses half the transaction.

It's not just MY maths, it was one of the key reasons that Ofcom implemented the caps on the termination rates.

The smallest network (i.e. Three) found it hard to be competitive with the other networks given the size of their user base.

The same applies to BT - if you call a mobile from a landline, it's statistically improbable that it'll be on Three. It's more likely to be on the bigger three networks (EE, O2, Vodafone) that charge higher CTRs.

Things are even worse now that Orange and T-Mobile have merged. They probably aren't too concerned with the termination rates that they charge each other!

flagpole · 22-03-2012, 18:15

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