Can't see England ever wanting to do that as there wouldn't be enough revenue from those games to justify it. And would those second tier games take place instead of the current Autumn internationals or as well as? If they were additional games, the clubs probably wouldn't release the players for those games**, or perhaps some of the players themselves would make themselves unavailable for those games as it wouldn't be attractive to them.

Playing matches against those nations would help them develop (look at Italy now) but I can't see it being an attractive game for people to go pay and see, or for TV companies to cover them, unfortunately.

** It is the IRB who define the period when autumn tests can be played so any changes to that to include more internationals would need to be sanctioned by the IRB in order to get players released.

I was at Twickers too, can't say I'm that bothered about the Haka being drowned out. Not sure why the IRB bends over backwards to make such a deal about it (imposing restrictions on where players are supposed to stand etc). It's not like the other Nations with their own Haka's get the same treatment.

I think the main problem was that there wasn't a big screen showing of the Haka, which there had been in previous years. Apparently a decision was taken to alternate showing it last year, so we missed out this time. As there was nothing appearing on screen, it was nigh on impossible for the crowd to hear it anyway (hence the Swing Low rendition).

I missed the MotM presentation stuff, agree it not great that a player was getting booed. It's not like any one of the All Blacks did anything to warrant booing.

Nigel Owens on the other hand.......

Take those games around the country, to club grounds. Make then £20, or even family tickets. There'll be a few kids who'll want dad to take them to see England at their home ground. The main problem would be fitting these games into the calendar.

Or bring back proper tours. I remember West Wales v Japan, Swansea v Barbarians.

I suppose there could be an 8 Nations tournament, made up of two groups of four. The winners (or top two) would play off against it each for an overall tournament champion and the others could play for a plate trophy (similar to what happens in 7's).

Group structures could change each year so that teams would deffo play each other
at least once over two year period.

Dunno if that's a feasible thing though.

That's what Scotland are doing with their final game of the season - instead of trying to fill Murrayfield, they are taking the game to Kilmarnock.

I agree, taking the games round the country is the way to do it, but I cannot see the RFU wanting to drop the "high profile" games against the Southern Hemisphere nations to accommodate those other games, so as you say, it's fitting them into the schedule that is the problem.


I do like the Six Nations so changing that format to what you suggest (which might mean we miss out on the annual Calcutta Cup matches for example) wouldn't appeal to me personally. However I appreciate a tournament such as this is needed to bring on those "second tier" nations, but I don't have an answer to what the solution is.

Having an eight or ten nation tournament in Jan/Feb/Mar would mean players needing to be released from their clubs for longer - I suspect that wouldn't go down too well.

If it were 8/10 team, then the two groups would run at parallel times (in my scenario). That way clubs would only lose their players for same 7 week period, though 10 teams would probably mean no rest weeks.

Over the last ten years the Six Nations 'A' competition for the likes of England Saxons has faded out.

Should England Saxons play a couple of games against tier 2 Europe teams in the Autumn?

Easy to over look that besides the FIRA/AER European Nations Cup, there is each year the IRB Tiblisi Cup and the Nations Cup held in Georgia and Romania.

Using the second string Six Nations, how about a European Championship.Played in four pools, in one or two countries.
Pool A held in Tiblisi Georgia. England Saxons, Russia, Belgium
Pool B in Bucharest Romania, France A, Spain, Sweden,
Pool C say at Thormond Park, Ireland Wolfhounds, Scotland A, Portugal, Poland
Pool D in Wrexham, Wales A, Italy A, Germany, Ukraine

The pools can be altered each edition
Reasons
Allow smaller rugby nations to play High performance Nations (England, France, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Italy, Georgia and Romania, the latter two are seen by the IRB as High performers)
Play at least one pool each in Georgia and Romania
Even if not at the National Grounds, games at other major Rugby Stadia, Thormond Park, Welford Rd etc,, with the right prices on a Summers evening, with one or two games at the same venue each day or night.
Prize, target
Maybe the next year could be a knockout event, in Romania and Georgia, with one nation hosting the cup, the other a plate event, alternating as hosts.

Just thoughts getting carried away, sorry for the rambling.

The Pumas were at Murrayfield last weekend and before the national anthems, as it was Remembrance weekend a moments silence was observed. Silence to remember fallen servicemen in a number of conflicts. Conflicts including the Falklands War.

But the Pumas and the Argentinian supporters respectfully observed the silence from what I could determine from the BBC coverage without any visible objections. Was this the case or has anyone heard anything different?

Secondly, the IRB Player of the Year shortlist has been announced. They are Jonathan Sexton, Willie Le Roux, Brodie Retallick, Julian Savea, Duane, Vermeulen.

forgot to do this last week - team news
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England:
Mike Brown (Harlequins); Anthony Watson (Bath), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester); Owen Farrell (Saracens), Danny Care (Harlequins); Joe Marler (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton), David Wilson (Bath), Dave Attwood (Bath), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Tom Wood (Northampton), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements
Rob Webber (Bath), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle), George Kruis (Saracens), Ben Morgan (Gloucester), Ben Youngs (Leicester), George Ford (Bath), Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

South Africa:
Willie Le Roux, JP Pietersen, Jan Serfontein, Jean de Villiers, Bryan Habana, Pat Lambie, Cobus Reinach, Tendai Mtawarira, Adriaan Strauss, Jannie du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Victor Matfield, Marcell Coetzee, Schalk Burger, Duane Vermeulen.

Replacements:
Bismarck du Plessis, Trevor Nyakane, Coenie Oosthuizen, Bakkies Botha, Teboho "Oupa" Mohoje, Francois Hougaard, Handre Pollard, Cornal Hendricks.

Fiji:
Metuisela Talebula, Waisea Nayacalevu, Vereniki Goneva, Nemani Nadolo, Asaeli Tikoirotuma; Joshua Matavesi, Nikola Matawalu; Campese Ma'afu, Sunia Koto, Manasa Saulo, Leone Nakarawa, Api Ratuniyarawa, Dominiko Waqaniburotu, Masi Matadigo, Akapusi Qera (capt).

Replacements:
Tuapati Talemaitoga, Jerry Yanuyanutawa, Isei Colati, Tevita Cavubati, Malakai Ravulo, Henry Seniloli, Jonetani Ralulu, Timoci Nagusa.

I don't think we have an A team any more, it's the U20s instead.

New Zealand:
Ben Smith; Colin Slade, Malakai Fekitoa, Ryan Crotty, Charles Piutau; Daniel Carter, TJ Perenara; Joe Moody, James Parsons, Charlie Faumuina, Jeremy Thrush, Dominic Bird, Richie McCaw (capt), Sam Cane, Victor Vito.

Replacements:
Dane Coles, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Luke Romano, Liam Messam, Augustine Pulu, Sonny Bill Williams, Julian Savea.

Wales:
Liam Williams (Scarlets), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro), George North (Northampton Saints); Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Racing Metro); Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues, capt), Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Bradley Davies (Wasps), Luke Charteris (Racing Metro), Dan Lydiate (unattached), Taulupe Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys).

Replacements:
Emyr Phillips (Scarlets), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), James King (Ospreys), Rhodri Williams (Scarlets), James Hook (Gloucester), Cory Allen (Cardiff Blues).

Scotland:
Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland, Mark Bennett, Alex Dunbar, Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors), Finn Russell, Greig Laidlaw; Alasdair Dickinson, Ross Ford, Euan Murray, Richie Gray, Jonny Gray, Rob Harley, Blair Cowan, Adam Ashe.

Replacements:
Fraser Brown, Gordon Reid, Geoff Cross, Tim Swinson, Johnnie Beattie, Chris Cusiter, Duncan Weir, Sean Lamont.

Decent idea but some of those teams, well Belgium, Poland, Sweden and Ukraine at least, would ship 100+ to England and France A sides. The other 5 or 6 should be fine.

There is no reason why for those 4 or 5 weeks, Uruguay, Namibia, Canada, Kenya, Japan etc could not be based in Europe and playing.

I wasn't overly impressed with either England or South Africa, nor the game other than the 10 minutes when Matfield was off. Habana got involved but May, Watson and Petersen barely had a touch between them, the ball never got past 12/13 and rarely even there. I didnt think either fly half played well.

From our perspective we lost far too much ball in contact and bar a couple of planned Moves in the first half could hardly cross the gain line around the fringes, as well as the lack of composure, Attwood spurning a try this time.

There will be changes anyway so suggesting them is not too radical, but Morgan again was brilliant when he came on. Him and Haskell should start in the back row. Hartley continues to be a walking yellow card. Lawes is almost that too but did play really well otherwise. Farrell should have a rest completely from the 22 for one week, swap Care and Youngs. Be harsh to drop any of the other 5 backs as they have hardly touched the ball but I would maybe try Joseph and Yarde for a match.

first things first...

Ireland:
Felix Jones, Craig Gilroy, Darren Cave, Gordon D'Arcy, Simon Zebo, Ian Madigan, Eoin Reddan, Dave Kilcoyne, Richardt Strauss, Mike Ross, Dave Foley, Mike McCarthy, Dominic Ryan, Tommy O'Donnell, Robbie Diack.

Replacements:
Sean Cronin, Jack McGrath, Rodney Ah You, Devin Toner, Robin Copeland, Kieran Marmion, Ian Keatley, Stuart Olding.

Georgia:
Merab Kvirikashvili; Alexander Todua; Davit Kacharava (capt), Merab Sharikadze, Tamaz Mtchedlidze; Lasha Khmaladze, Giorgi Begadze; Mikheil Nariashvili, Shalva Mamukashvili, David Kubriashvili; Kote Mikautadze, Giorgi Nemsadze; Giorgi Tkhilaishvili, Viktor Kolelishvili, Dimitri Basilaia.

Replacements:
Simon Maisuradze, Zurab Zhvania, Levan Chilachava, Levan Datunashvili, Giorgi Chkhaidze, Vazha Khutsishvili, Lasha Malaguradze, Muraz Giorgadze
-----
As for England, we were a lot worse than last week. The only time we looked good was when South Africa were down to 14 men, we can't even blame the ref this week (and had Steve Walsh!).

There didn't seem to be much invention from England. Care and Farrell both had poor games, with far too much kicking for no particular advantage. It's slightly worrying how clueless England are looking the closer we get to the World Cup.

Not impressed by Wales. Yet again we show that when we leave out a few big names, we struggle. Liam Williams was good though. Him Halfpenny and North would be a good back 3. or you could have North in the centre and Cuthbert on the wing. But who plays fullback, Halfpenny or Williams?

Good win for France over Australia tonight... Ireland v Australia next Saturday will be very interesting, a win would be massive for momentum into the 6 Nations.

Whatever happens this 6 nations could be the strongest in a decade - England, France, Ireland all very strong (could all beat each other) and an ever improving Scottish side. Big advantage for us this year as we play England and France in Dublin.

Seems to be a fair bit of flagellation going on amongst the English at the moment. I'm surprised how negative the reaction has been to losing to South Africa.

Ireland 49-7 Georgia

Nothing spectacular from us today but the blooding in of players will bring massive depth to this side - a good showing against Australia now would cap off a great year for Irish rugby.

Sadly the England triumphant of football, cricket and rugby teams usually receive OTT praise from the media and fans or OTT criticism

Though I might have been guilty of that yesterday, England did play badly. There didn't seem to be any invention, adaptability to conditions or how South Africa were playing.

Plus there is the home World Cup coming so of course there will be extra pressure on England.

As Ian Robertson said on 5live 4 of the 5 defeats have been to the best team in the World - 3 of which have been very close.

Time to really worry might be if we do badly in the next 2 games and the 6 nations.

Then again in 2007 wasn't there all the fuss about how poor we were and then we reached the final!

Yep. In 2006 they lost 8 out of 11 and went on to the World Cup final the following year. In 2014 they are 5 out of 10 with 2 to go. For what it is worth, this is a better run-in to the World Cup than in 2006/7.

teams news

Wales : 15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-Alex Cuthbert, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Jamie Roberts, 11-George North, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb-; 1-Paul James, 2-Richard Hibbard, 3-Samson Lee, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Dan Lydiate, 7-Sam Warburton (captain), 8-Taulupe Faletau

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Nicky Smith, 18-Rhodri Jones, 19-Luke Charteris, 20-Justin Tipuric, 21-Mike Phillips, 22-James Hook, 23-Liam Williams

New Zealand : 15-Ben Smith, 14-Charles Piutau, 13-Conrad Smith, 12-Sonny Bill Williams, 11-Julian Savea, 10-Beauden Barrett, 9-Aaron Smith; 1-Wyatt Crockett., 2-Dane Coles, 3-Owen Franks, 4-Brodie Retallick, 5-Sam Whitelock, 6-Jerome Kaino, 7-Richie McCaw (captain), 8-Kieran Read

Replacements: 16-Keven Mealamu, 17-Joe Moody, 18-Charlie Faumuina, 19-Patrick Tuipulotu, 20-Liam Messam, 21-TJ Perenara, 22-Colin Slade, 23-Ryan Crotty

England : 15-Mike Brown , 14-Anthony Watson, 13-Brad Barritt, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Jonny May, 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Rob Webber, 3-David Wilson, 4-Dave Attwood, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-James Haskell, 7-Chris Robshaw, 8-Ben Morgan

Replacements: 16-Dylan Hartley, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kieran Brookes, 19-George Kruis, 20-Tom Wood, 21-Richard Wigglesworth, 22-Billy Twelvetrees, 23-Marland Yarde

Samoa : 15-Ken Pisi, 14-Alapati Leiua, 13-Reynold Lee-Lo, 12-Johnny Leota, 11-David Lemi, 10-Tusi Pisi, 9-Kahn Fotuali'i; 1-Zak Taulafo, 2-Ti'i Paulo, 3-Census Johnston, 4-Filo Paulo, 5-Kane Thompson, 6-Maurie Fa'asavalu, 7-Jack Lam, 8-Ofisa Treviranus

Replacements: 16-Manu Leiataua, 17-Viliamu Afatia, 18-Anthony Perenise, 19-Fa'atiga Lemalu, 20-Dan Leo, 21-TJ Ioane, 22-Pete Cowley, 23-Mike Stanley

Ireland: Rob Kearney; Tommy Bowe, Robbie Henshaw, Gordon D'Arcy, Simon Zebo; Jonathan Sexton, Conor Murray; Jack McGrath, Rory Best, Mike Ross: Devin Toner, Paul O'Connell (capt); Peter O'Mahony, Rhys Ruddock, Jamie Heaslip.

Replacements: Sean Cronin, Dave Kilcoyne, Rodney Ah You, Dave Foley, Tommy O'Donnell, Eoin Reddan, Ian Madigan, Felix Jones

Australia: Israel Folau; Adam Ashley-Cooper, Tevenia Kuridrani, Matt Toomua, Henry Speight; Bernard Foley, Nick Phipps; James Slipper, Saia Fainga'a, Sekope Kepu; Sam Carter, Rob Simmons; Luke Jones, Michael Hooper (capt), Ben McCalman.

Replacements: James Hanson, Benn Robinson, Ben Alexander, Tetera Faulkner, Will Skelton, James Horwill, Jake Schatz, Will Genia, Quade Cooper, Rob Horne, Kurtley Beale.
----
slightly disappointed with England's team. Farrell isn't match fit or in form, so why play him over Burrell?

Scotland: 15 Stuart Hogg, 14 Tommy Seymour, 13 Sean Lamont, 12 Alex Dunbar, 11 Tim Visser, 10 Finn Russell, 9 Greig Laidlaw (capt); 1 Alasdair Dickinson, 2 Ross Ford, 3 Geoff Cross, 4 Richie Gray, 5 Jonny Gray, 6 Rob Harley, 7 Blair Cowan, 8 Johnnie Beattie.
Replacements: 16 Fraser Brown, 17 Gordon Reid, 18 Ryan Grant, 19 Kieran Low, 20 Alasdair Strokosch, 21 Chris Cusiter, 22 Duncan Weir, 23 Duncan Taylor.

Tonga: 15 Vungakoto Lilo, 14 David Halaifonua, 13 Siale Piutau, 12 Hemani Paea, 11 Fetu'u Vainikolo, 10 Latiume Fosita, 9 Sonatane Takulua; 1 Tevita Mailau, 2 Aleki Lutui, 3 Paea Fa'anunu, , 4 Tukulua Lokotui, 5 Joe Tu'ineau, 6 Sione Kalamafoni, 7 Nili Latu (capt), 8 Viliami Ma'afu.
Replacements: 16 Elvis Taione, 17 Sione Lea, 18 Sila Puafisi, 19 Lisiate Fa'aoso, 20 Hale T Pole, 21 Tomasi Palu, 22 Kurt Morath, 23 Sione Piukala.

Big match for Ireland this - a win would be absolutely massive. 2 wins over southern hemisphere giants with our injury list would be amazing.